Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Okay, I've noticed that the general consensus is that heavy bolters are overrated; that they don't do what they are designed to very well: crowd control.

My question for you, Dakka, is would a bolter/heavy bolter/storm bolter/bolt pistol spam list be effective? I mean, aside from the Tau pulse rifles the bolter is one of the most powerful infantry weapons in the game. Not to mention they are CHEAP so you can get a lot of them and therefore enough shots to make anything fail its save.

Just wondering what my fellow dakkaites think of this idea. And even if it's not competitive, I still think it'd be fun to play.

Bolters are a tool that a player has in their disposal. Most armies have similar tools (shuriken cat, lasgun, splinter gun, shoota, etc)
The best target for a bolter is vs lower-toughness (4 or less) opponents. They are best brought in large numbers where they can bring weight of numbers to bear. They are best used to vs smaller targets -- but with enough support they can even clear out a squad of 30 boys outside cover.

Here are some situations where massive bolter fire is very effective.
1) 5 TH/SS termies. One out of every 6 will fail a save, so make them take tons of saves. Eventually they will start rolling ones.
2) 5 snipers sitting on an objective, even if they go to ground, they will start rolling ones.
3) Eldar/IG caught outside a vehicle.
4) Open topped, AV 10 vehicles.
5) Archon with shadow-field. Its better to put 15 bolter wounds on him with that 2++ save than 2 melta gun wounds.

They are not useful when brought in small numbers -- ie. don't expect 10 bolter shots to do much vs 10 chaos space marines. They rapidly lose effectiveness vs T5 or greater targets -- don't expect much results when shooting at bike squads. Don't expect much from bolters at long range -- they just don't pump out enough shots.

To summarize, bolters are a tool for any well rounded army. You get them for free (as your troops will likely have them) -- so just make sure they are used properly and you will find them effective.

The bolter, and heavy bolter especially, are not massed infantry counters as one would expect. Where they are useful is in putting a ton of wounds onto a small model count squad--as labmouse pointed out.

The reason is because you simply don't generate enough wounds for the points cost. 6 Long Fangs with 5 HBs, probably the best HB platform out there, only generate about 7 wounds against T4. That's actually quite good if it's being shot at Lysander, or a Tac Marine and Sarge gone-to-ground on an objective in ruins. Against 30 Boyz with a KFF, though, it's surprisingly ineffective.

Heavy bolters are assassination weapons best applied against small, important targets. For pretty much everything else, you're better off with the missile launcher.

sourclams wrote: Against 30 Boyz with a KFF, though, it's surprisingly ineffective.

Heavy bolters are assassination weapons best applied against small, important targets. For pretty much everything else, you're better off with the missile launcher.

SourClams has it right on the nose here. 30 Boys with a KFF or in cover require over 100 bolter shots to wipe out (assuming 1/3 miss, 1/2 wound, and 1/3 cover). It possible with enough fire, but even a 1/3 cover save makes it very difficult to take them out.

Last week I was playing a lash list and I used my HB attack bikes to assassinate the DP. Thowing 9 HB shots out every turn on him killed him by turn 2.

sourclams wrote:The reason is because you simply don't generate enough wounds for the points cost.

Right, you've got to remember that space marines aren't powerful just because they have bolters, they're powerful because they have bolters, T4, and Sv 3+.

Bolters by themselves do a lot of damage, but not quite enough against a dedicated horde player. Really, they're just there to thin them out to the point where your high toughness and body armor are going to be able to take over once they arrive and still survive.

That said, 2 tac squads shooting twice (once at 24", and once at 12") at a 30-boy slugga mob puts down nearly 20 boyz. The remaining 10 should just bounce off of power armor once they charge (remember, you also get to attack first).

Were I to play marines, I'd definitely make it my first priority to learn how to use bolters properly. I'd also back them up with melta guns and powerfists too...

Bah want to learn to use bolters effectively play SoB! They are effectively dead if you let them get assaulted. Marines at least are durable enough they can hold their own and take significant charges without being plowed under (usually).

The problem with Heavy Bolters is at S5 AP4 3 shots they just do not put out enough hurt to be effective horde control. I used to run Heavy Bolter Retributors (SoB) and the prevalence of cover saves just ruins their day.

Even at a tournament the other day I had 8 Seekers take the full fire from a BA Dakka Pred and it only killed 2 of them.

This is an interesting thread.
Personally, I love bolters.

With marines, unlike eldar, if there is a threat -most of my units have the ability to harm it.
I may have to commit a few special weapons into killing a daemon prince for example, and tbh the extra shots from rhino's storm bolters, attack bikes' twin bolters and all the other bolters hiding in my list usually end up helping slay him.
I dont rely on them to kill great unclean ones or 30 boys in cover, but they can always contribute - and thus have a place in my army.

Ailaros wrote:
That said, 2 tac squads shooting twice (once at 24", and once at 12") at a 30-boy slugga mob puts down nearly 20 boyz. The remaining 10 should just bounce off of power armor once they charge (remember, you also get to attack first).

This would be a very rare case scenario. First, the tac squads would have to be foot slogging. Second is assuming that the boyz would have no type of cover save available.

Ailaros wrote:
Were I to play marines, I'd definitely make it my first priority to learn how to use bolters properly. I'd also back them up with melta guns and powerfists too...

I hope you are not recommending pf's in a tac squad...

imweasel wrote:

Ailaros wrote:
Were I to play marines, I'd definitely make it my first priority to learn how to use bolters properly. I'd also back them up with melta guns and powerfists too...

I hope you are not recommending pf's in a tac squad...

Yeah - please don't put pf's in your tac squads. That way I don't have anything to worry about with my dreadnoughts.

imweasel wrote:

Ailaros wrote:
That said, 2 tac squads shooting twice (once at 24", and once at 12") at a 30-boy slugga mob puts down nearly 20 boyz. The remaining 10 should just bounce off of power armor once they charge (remember, you also get to attack first).

This would be a very rare case scenario. First, the tac squads would have to be foot slogging. Second is assuming that the boyz would have no type of cover save available.

Ailaros wrote:
Were I to play marines, I'd definitely make it my first priority to learn how to use bolters properly. I'd also back them up with melta guns and powerfists too...

I hope you are not recommending pf's in a tac squad...

Everything in my army that can have a power fist, has a power fist. Why? The abillity to chew through walkers and MCs if they get lucky enough to charge you is amazing, and punking stuff like chaos lords and archons with instant death from a hidden power fist is nothing, NOTHING short of amazing, for it neuters the attack power of the enemy unit coming in in the proceeding combats.

Bolters suck, but they come with your troops choices and they're better than nothing, so...yeah.

Let me get this straight: the Ferrari of nonspecial human weaponry, the standard issue of mankind's best hope for survival, does the same amount of damage as an Ork Shoota, and you can't assault after you fire it? Yeah...

Brother-Thunder wrote:Everything in my army that can have a power fist, has a power fist. Why? The abillity to chew through walkers and MCs if they get lucky enough to charge you is amazing, and punking stuff like chaos lords and archons with instant death from a hidden power fist is nothing, NOTHING short of amazing, for it neuters the attack power of the enemy unit coming in in the proceeding combats.

Once I was playing an eldar player.
He looked at me with a frustrated look when my sergeant power fisted his farseer into the ground.
He exclaimed, "I hate out every one of your f**ing squads has a powerfist!!!!"
During that game, they did not all have a powerfist.
From that moment onward, they always did.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Bolters suck, but they come with your troops choices and they're better than nothing, so...yeah. .

This is a prime example of the mentality that causes people to not use their bolters effectively.
All models/figures in 40k are tools to accomplish your goal -- winning the game. How can you best use your tools to complete the task? Start thinking in that manner, and you will find your game will improve.

puma713 wrote:
Yeah - please don't put pf's in your tac squads. That way I don't have anything to worry about with my dreadnoughts.

I would much rather spend the points that would kill your dreads while they are coming in rather than after they somehow and miraculously managed to get into CC with my tac squad...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother-Thunder wrote:Everything in my army that can have a power fist, has a power fist. Why? The abillity to chew through walkers and MCs if they get lucky enough to charge you is amazing, and punking stuff like chaos lords and archons with instant death from a hidden power fist is nothing, NOTHING short of amazing, for it neuters the attack power of the enemy unit coming in in the proceeding combats.

PF's do nothing to neuter the attack power of the enemy unit coming in the proceeding combats. It's very tough for tac squads to win a combat, with or without pf's. The points are much better spent someplace else.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Bolters suck, but they come with your troops choices and they're better than nothing, so...yeah.

Let me get this straight: the Ferrari of nonspecial human weaponry, the standard issue of mankind's best hope for survival, does the same amount of damage as an Ork Shoota, and you can't assault after you fire it? Yeah...

I had 20 bolters take down a 12 man PAGK squad charging my objective, a 5 man hammernator squad, a daemon prince, multiple MCs, and multiple HQs.

Bolters do not suck, friend.

imweasel wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother-Thunder wrote:Everything in my army that can have a power fist, has a power fist. Why? The abillity to chew through walkers and MCs if they get lucky enough to charge you is amazing, and punking stuff like chaos lords and archons with instant death from a hidden power fist is nothing, NOTHING short of amazing, for it neuters the attack power of the enemy unit coming in in the proceeding combats.

PF's do nothing to neuter the attack power of the enemy unit coming in the proceeding combats. It's very tough for tac squads to win a combat, with or without pf's. The points are much better spent someplace else.

You sure about that? Hitting a 200+ point HQ in the face and watching him fall over to instant death makes back that tac squad's points in a single strike, and makes up for the KP you are about to concede too. Even then, having a weapon that wounds on 2s and ignores armor, causing instant death most of the time is a beautiful thing to have against armies like blood angels, khorne heavy armies, and monster farm nids. If that squad reaches your lines at full strength, then you are either playing against dark eldar, or playing space marines wrong. Think of power fists as a mop up device, not as a backbone of the army.

labmouse42 wrote:Once I was playing an eldar player.
He looked at me with a frustrated look when my sergeant power fisted his farseer into the ground.
He exclaimed, "I hate out every one of your f**ing squads has a powerfist!!!!"
During that game, they did not all have a powerfist.
From that moment onward, they always did.

I don't consider that a valid reason for taking an expensive weapon to make a bad CC unit slightly worse off.

Brother-Thunder wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Bolters suck, but they come with your troops choices and they're better than nothing, so...yeah.

Let me get this straight: the Ferrari of nonspecial human weaponry, the standard issue of mankind's best hope for survival, does the same amount of damage as an Ork Shoota, and you can't assault after you fire it? Yeah...

I had 20 bolters take down a 12 man PAGK squad charging my objective, a 5 man hammernator squad, a daemon prince, multiple MCs, and multiple HQs.

Bolters do not suck, friend.

I had a Daemon Prince get pasted in one round of shooting from a Chimera. 3 Multilaser shots, 3 HB shots, all hit, all wound, 4 failed saves, dead DP. Just yesterday I had 2 PM squads open up on Arjack and 4 Terminators, dead in one turn. Stuff happens.

That doesn't mean that you can count on Multilasers and HB to kill Daemon Princes in one round of shooting any more than you can count on 6 bolters and 4 meltaguns to snuff 5 Terminators. Cute anecdotes don't really make bolters any less sucky. Bolters are tools, that much is true, they're just pretty weak tools that can't be counted on to have a serious effect on anything out there. You can always get lucky and gun down an important character or unit with them but when you math-hammer it out, Bolters just aren't that great. Compared to most other weapons in 40k they're surprisingly crappy. If Bolters were assault weapons (Assault 2, 18" range or something), then you'd probably see more people running Tactical Marines.

What I'm saying is this: Bolters are almost exclusively weapons that you take because you have to, not because you want to. How many competitive Marine lists spam bolters? In almost any case where you've got options, you almost exclusively stay away from Heavy Bolters. Shooty Terminators < Assault Terminators. Scouts w/ Shotguns > Bolters. The one case where you're better off with Bolters, IMO, is in LRC.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Brother-Thunder wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Bolters suck, but they come with your troops choices and they're better than nothing, so...yeah.

Let me get this straight: the Ferrari of nonspecial human weaponry, the standard issue of mankind's best hope for survival, does the same amount of damage as an Ork Shoota, and you can't assault after you fire it? Yeah...

I had 20 bolters take down a 12 man PAGK squad charging my objective, a 5 man hammernator squad, a daemon prince, multiple MCs, and multiple HQs.

Bolters do not suck, friend.

I had a Daemon Prince get pasted in one round of shooting from a Chimera. 3 Multilaser shots, 3 HB shots, all hit, all wound, 4 failed saves, dead DP. Just yesterday I had 2 PM squads open up on Arjack and 4 Terminators, dead in one turn. Stuff happens.

That doesn't mean that you can count on Multilasers and HB to kill Daemon Princes in one round of shooting any more than you can count on 6 bolters and 4 meltaguns to snuff 5 Terminators. Cute anecdotes don't really make bolters any less sucky. Bolters are tools, that much is true, they're just pretty weak tools that can't be counted on to have a serious effect on anything out there. You can always get lucky and gun down an important character or unit with them but when you math-hammer it out, Bolters just aren't that great. Compared to most other weapons in 40k they're surprisingly crappy. If Bolters were assault weapons (Assault 2, 18" range or something), then you'd probably see more people running Tactical Marines.

2 shots that hit on 3+ and wound on 4+ usually for every model while NOT recieving returning strikes is great when massed. Rarely have I had bolters dissapoint me when it comes to slaying infantry of equal size because of how many shots do get thrown down range.

It is the same as arguing that wyches suck in close combat because they only get 3 attacks each at S3 on the charge. Yet, we all know this is not the case, is it not?

Brother-Thunder wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Brother-Thunder wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Bolters suck, but they come with your troops choices and they're better than nothing, so...yeah.

Let me get this straight: the Ferrari of nonspecial human weaponry, the standard issue of mankind's best hope for survival, does the same amount of damage as an Ork Shoota, and you can't assault after you fire it? Yeah...

I had 20 bolters take down a 12 man PAGK squad charging my objective, a 5 man hammernator squad, a daemon prince, multiple MCs, and multiple HQs.

Bolters do not suck, friend.

I had a Daemon Prince get pasted in one round of shooting from a Chimera. 3 Multilaser shots, 3 HB shots, all hit, all wound, 4 failed saves, dead DP. Just yesterday I had 2 PM squads open up on Arjack and 4 Terminators, dead in one turn. Stuff happens.

That doesn't mean that you can count on Multilasers and HB to kill Daemon Princes in one round of shooting any more than you can count on 6 bolters and 4 meltaguns to snuff 5 Terminators. Cute anecdotes don't really make bolters any less sucky. Bolters are tools, that much is true, they're just pretty weak tools that can't be counted on to have a serious effect on anything out there. You can always get lucky and gun down an important character or unit with them but when you math-hammer it out, Bolters just aren't that great. Compared to most other weapons in 40k they're surprisingly crappy. If Bolters were assault weapons (Assault 2, 18" range or something), then you'd probably see more people running Tactical Marines.

2 shots that hit on 3+ and wound on 4+ usually for every model while NOT recieving returning strikes is great when massed. Rarely have I had bolters dissapoint me when it comes to slaying infantry of equal size because of how many shots do get thrown down range.

It is the same as arguing that wyches suck in close combat because they only get 3 attacks each at S3 on the charge. Yet, we all know this is not the case, is it not?

So assuming a full Tac squad, Sgt. w/ Bolt Pistol, and it's moved...vs. MEQ squad w/ Power Armor

8 x 2 Bolters, Bolt Pistols x 2: 18 shots.
12 hit, 6 wound. 2 dead. 170 points worth of Tactical marines to kill off 2 MEQs with power armor, full turn of shooting? Meh.

VS. Daemon Prince. 12 hit, 4 wound, 1-2 wounds. If MoN, 2 wound, maybe 1 failed save.

Vs. Ork Boyz w/ KFF save. 12 hit, 6 wound, 4 dead.



Not really that impressed man. I'm going to drive up, hop out, and rapid fire for *that*? Meh...it could be worse but it's not something I want to spam. The only case you really want to stock up on Bolter-armed guys is if you have a distinct reason. IE: Grey Hunters, because they have Counter Attack, or Plague Marines because they have defensive grenades. Offensively speaking, regular Tac Marines usually drive up, rapid fire, do very little, then get charged and either tarpit or die.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Brother-Thunder wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Brother-Thunder wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Bolters suck, but they come with your troops choices and they're better than nothing, so...yeah.

Let me get this straight: the Ferrari of nonspecial human weaponry, the standard issue of mankind's best hope for survival, does the same amount of damage as an Ork Shoota, and you can't assault after you fire it? Yeah...

I had 20 bolters take down a 12 man PAGK squad charging my objective, a 5 man hammernator squad, a daemon prince, multiple MCs, and multiple HQs.

Bolters do not suck, friend.

I had a Daemon Prince get pasted in one round of shooting from a Chimera. 3 Multilaser shots, 3 HB shots, all hit, all wound, 4 failed saves, dead DP. Just yesterday I had 2 PM squads open up on Arjack and 4 Terminators, dead in one turn. Stuff happens.

That doesn't mean that you can count on Multilasers and HB to kill Daemon Princes in one round of shooting any more than you can count on 6 bolters and 4 meltaguns to snuff 5 Terminators. Cute anecdotes don't really make bolters any less sucky. Bolters are tools, that much is true, they're just pretty weak tools that can't be counted on to have a serious effect on anything out there. You can always get lucky and gun down an important character or unit with them but when you math-hammer it out, Bolters just aren't that great. Compared to most other weapons in 40k they're surprisingly crappy. If Bolters were assault weapons (Assault 2, 18" range or something), then you'd probably see more people running Tactical Marines.

2 shots that hit on 3+ and wound on 4+ usually for every model while NOT recieving returning strikes is great when massed. Rarely have I had bolters dissapoint me when it comes to slaying infantry of equal size because of how many shots do get thrown down range.

It is the same as arguing that wyches suck in close combat because they only get 3 attacks each at S3 on the charge. Yet, we all know this is not the case, is it not?

So assuming a full Tac squad, Sgt. w/ Bolt Pistol, and it's moved...vs. MEQ squad w/ Power Armor

8 x 2 Bolters, Bolt Pistols x 2: 18 shots.
12 hit, 6 wound. 2 dead. 170 points worth of Tactical marines to kill off 2 MEQs with power armor, full turn of shooting? Meh.

VS. Daemon Prince. 12 hit, 4 wound, 1-2 wounds. If MoN, 2 wound, maybe 1 failed save.

Vs. Ork Boyz w/ KFF save. 12 hit, 6 wound, 4 dead.



Not really that impressed man. I'm going to drive up, hop out, and rapid fire for *that*? Meh...

Yes, I would hop out to deliver that many shots to an enemy unit, but only after they are weakened(read: thinned out) by the rest of the army beforehand.

You forget that bolters work within the confines of an army as a whole, not just individual units in a vaccum. rapid firing against 10 berserkers is foolish, but after thinning them to 5-6, it becomes more advantagious to hop out and give them some double tapping love.

Ailaros wrote:That said, 2 tac squads shooting twice (once at 24", and once at 12") at a 30-boy slugga mob puts down nearly 20 boyz. The remaining 10 should just bounce off of power armor once they charge (remember, you also get to attack first).

What you really just said was, 400 points of Marines firing to full effect killed off 120 points' worth of Boyz and will die to the other 40 Boyz rolling into them in CC on WAAAGH turn.

Brother-Thunder wrote:
You sure about that? Hitting a 200+ point HQ in the face and watching him fall over to instant death makes back that tac squad's points in a single strike, and makes up for the KP you are about to concede too. Even then, having a weapon that wounds on 2s and ignores armor, causing instant death most of the time is a beautiful thing to have against armies like blood angels, khorne heavy armies, and monster farm nids. If that squad reaches your lines at full strength, then you are either playing against dark eldar, or playing space marines wrong. Think of power fists as a mop up device, not as a backbone of the army.

Only a very bad player would let a 200pt hq get hit in the face with a weapon that would cause instant death from a tac squad sarge.

Khorne heavy armies? Really? I suppose it is sporting for the marine player to gimp himself when facing an inferior foe. BA's are literally going to laugh at your pf.

Pf's are not a mop up device, let along the backbone of the army, it's 25pts that would be better off spent someplace else to make your army more effective overall, rather than an extremely narrow set of circunstances.

Brother-Thunder wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Brother-Thunder wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Brother-Thunder wrote:

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Bolters suck, but they come with your troops choices and they're better than nothing, so...yeah.

Let me get this straight: the Ferrari of nonspecial human weaponry, the standard issue of mankind's best hope for survival, does the same amount of damage as an Ork Shoota, and you can't assault after you fire it? Yeah...

I had 20 bolters take down a 12 man PAGK squad charging my objective, a 5 man hammernator squad, a daemon prince, multiple MCs, and multiple HQs.

Bolters do not suck, friend.

I had a Daemon Prince get pasted in one round of shooting from a Chimera. 3 Multilaser shots, 3 HB shots, all hit, all wound, 4 failed saves, dead DP. Just yesterday I had 2 PM squads open up on Arjack and 4 Terminators, dead in one turn. Stuff happens.

That doesn't mean that you can count on Multilasers and HB to kill Daemon Princes in one round of shooting any more than you can count on 6 bolters and 4 meltaguns to snuff 5 Terminators. Cute anecdotes don't really make bolters any less sucky. Bolters are tools, that much is true, they're just pretty weak tools that can't be counted on to have a serious effect on anything out there. You can always get lucky and gun down an important character or unit with them but when you math-hammer it out, Bolters just aren't that great. Compared to most other weapons in 40k they're surprisingly crappy. If Bolters were assault weapons (Assault 2, 18" range or something), then you'd probably see more people running Tactical Marines.

2 shots that hit on 3+ and wound on 4+ usually for every model while NOT recieving returning strikes is great when massed. Rarely have I had bolters dissapoint me when it comes to slaying infantry of equal size because of how many shots do get thrown down range.

It is the same as arguing that wyches suck in close combat because they only get 3 attacks each at S3 on the charge. Yet, we all know this is not the case, is it not?

So assuming a full Tac squad, Sgt. w/ Bolt Pistol, and it's moved...vs. MEQ squad w/ Power Armor

8 x 2 Bolters, Bolt Pistols x 2: 18 shots.
12 hit, 6 wound. 2 dead. 170 points worth of Tactical marines to kill off 2 MEQs with power armor, full turn of shooting? Meh.

VS. Daemon Prince. 12 hit, 4 wound, 1-2 wounds. If MoN, 2 wound, maybe 1 failed save.

Vs. Ork Boyz w/ KFF save. 12 hit, 6 wound, 4 dead.



Not really that impressed man. I'm going to drive up, hop out, and rapid fire for *that*? Meh...

Yes, I would hop out to deliver that many shots to an enemy unit, but only after they are weakened(read: thinned out) by the rest of the army beforehand.

You forget that bolters work within the confines of an army as a whole, not just individual units in a vaccum. rapid firing against 10 berserkers is foolish, but after thinning them to 5-6, it becomes more advantagious to hop out and give them some double tapping love.

That's a fair point, but let me put it this way. I play CSM now. I tend to run Plague Marines. I can run either 2 5-man squads with 2 Special Weapons each or one 10-man squad with 2 Special Weapons total. I'll always pick the 2 5-man squads to maximize the number of Special Weapons. Why? Because they're better than Bolters.

Say you play Space Wolves. You're running Long Fangs. Are you going to run your Long Fang squads with Heavy Bolters or Missile Launchers? ML of course, because they're unarguably better than Heavy Bolters, and cost the same.

So yes, bolters are a part of the Marine armies, but they're outclassed by nearly every alternative.

imweasel wrote:

Brother-Thunder wrote:
You sure about that? Hitting a 200+ point HQ in the face and watching him fall over to instant death makes back that tac squad's points in a single strike, and makes up for the KP you are about to concede too. Even then, having a weapon that wounds on 2s and ignores armor, causing instant death most of the time is a beautiful thing to have against armies like blood angels, khorne heavy armies, and monster farm nids. If that squad reaches your lines at full strength, then you are either playing against dark eldar, or playing space marines wrong. Think of power fists as a mop up device, not as a backbone of the army.

Only a very bad player would let a 200pt hq get hit in the face with a weapon that would cause instant death from a tac squad sarge.

Khorne heavy armies? Really? I suppose it is sporting for the marine player to gimp himself when facing an inferior foe. BA's are literally going to laugh at your pf.

Pf's are not a mop up device, let along the backbone of the army, it's 25pts that would be better off spent someplace else to make your army more effective overall, rather than an extremely narrow set of circunstances.

right unit formation can see the PF being within 2" of an enemy commander, it is MUCH more commonplace than you think.

Last BA player to laugh at my power fist ended up losing the game because he discarded its threat. S8 ignoring armor is serious when in assault, and it has turned the tide of battle for me countless times against many different armies. Combine the fact that I run Lysander in my fists army, giving my entire army stubborn, which gives my power fists multiple rounds of combat to swing at the enemy. It adds up.

and considering that I run three squads w/ power fists, I have 75 extra points in my army. Hmm... I guess I could get a scout squad! But those suck... I would get a MM/HF speeder, but I already run 3 typhoons. Truly, power fists are the best purchase for my army.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:That's a fair point, but let me put it this way. I play CSM now. I tend to run Plague Marines. I can run either 2 5-man squads with 2 Special Weapons each or one 10-man squad with 2 Special Weapons total. I'll always pick the 2 5-man squads to maximize the number of Special Weapons. Why? Because they're better than Bolters.

Say you play Space Wolves. You're running Long Fangs. Are you going to run your Long Fang squads with Heavy Bolters or Missile Launchers? ML of course, because they're unarguably better than Heavy Bolters, and cost the same.

So yes, bolters are a part of the Marine armies, but they're outclassed by nearly every alternative.

I am not arguing for heavy bolters, I agree that those are not very good. I am arguing for basic boltguns. Also, there is a reason to run a 10 man plague marine squad, and that is more survivability among the squad, and more meat to munch through before losing those special weapons.

Also, special weapons are generally for helping specialize a squad, plasma for busting MEQ/AV10, flamers for hordes, melta for tanks. A bolter can do all three, but not as well. It is a more versitile weapon in general than the others because it has medium range, medium kill power, and medium-high rate of fire. and when I say tanks, I mean DE raiders and Trukks, just to clear that part up before confusion.

imweasel wrote:I don't consider that a valid reason for taking an expensive weapon to make a bad CC unit slightly worse off.

Why is a PF for a tac squad a good idea?

Look at what you get for your 25 point investment
* 2 STR 8 attacks with no armor save allowed in close combat
* The ability to insta-kill most characters -- and the PF cannot be targeted until the unit is wiped
* Gain good threat to most vehicles (all save LR and Monolith). Sure, you have crack gernades, but that STR 8 PF hitting rear armor can knock a russ wide open.
* Decrease threat of dreads/MC/ICs on unit. If a squad has no PF, Ill throw a warboss into it and watch the warboss eat the unit alive -- a PF changes the equation.
* Add 1-2 MEQ kill per round in assault. When those hits are striking BE, those 1 or 2 models can really weaken an elite assault unit.

Fielding 3 of them will not effect your overall army much -- 75 points does not even buy a dakka pread. For an all-corners list, there is no reason NOT to field them in tac squads.
At the end of the day, your 25 point investment gives you insurance against types of enemies and increases your options as to what you can do.

This has all be discussed ad nauseam is the past, so I summarized it with a short story. If you like we can cover it all again.

Well since both of you are way overstating the usefulness of the pf in a tac squad and I don't want to hijack a bolter spam thread, let's just leave you both to your poor choices for a tac squad.

Very well, we agree to disagree.

Impressive how some people think that the way they play is the only way to play.

And I love the Bolter spam. But that's because I'm a horde guy, and I love to see lots of troops on the battlefield.

There have been threads before where I pointed out how the powerfist isn't really worth the cost. The problem with them is that even against a dreadnought you are not going to have a good chance to destroy it anyways. Instead of trying to destroy it in CC, you could be using combat tactics (C:SM) to fall back after you lose, regroup and fire heavy+special weapons into it on your turn. Even if that tactical squad doesn't destroy it, the Dread is now a target for your other heavies.

C:SM tactical squads seldom have a reason to take a PF. Taking the special character for stubborn might be one of them, or if you don't have combat tactics otherwise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On topic: Bolters are good, but you don't need to spam them. You are forced to take some for holding objectives (tactical marines), you don't need to go out of your way for them. SM troops are expensive so you need to ration your points to put in as many toys as possible.

Dracos wrote:There have been threads before where I pointed out how the powerfist isn't really worth the cost. The problem with them is that even against a dreadnought you are not going to have a good chance to destroy it anyways. Instead of trying to destroy it in CC, you could be using combat tactics (C:SM) to fall back after you lose, regroup and fire heavy+special weapons into it on your turn. Even if that tactical squad doesn't destroy it, the Dread is now a target for your other heavies.

C:SM tactical squads seldom have a reason to take a PF. Taking the special character for stubborn might be one of them, or if you don't have combat tactics otherwise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On topic: Bolters are good, but you don't need to spam them. You are forced to take some for holding objectives (tactical marines), you don't need to go out of your way for them. SM troops are expensive so you need to ration your points to put in as many toys as possible.

well, what stops the savy space marine player from hitting the dread with a power fist, and if that fails, run the hell away and shoot after?

Brother-Thunder wrote:

Dracos wrote:There have been threads before where I pointed out how the powerfist isn't really worth the cost. The problem with them is that even against a dreadnought you are not going to have a good chance to destroy it anyways. Instead of trying to destroy it in CC, you could be using combat tactics (C:SM) to fall back after you lose, regroup and fire heavy+special weapons into it on your turn. Even if that tactical squad doesn't destroy it, the Dread is now a target for your other heavies.

C:SM tactical squads seldom have a reason to take a PF. Taking the special character for stubborn might be one of them, or if you don't have combat tactics otherwise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On topic: Bolters are good, but you don't need to spam them. You are forced to take some for holding objectives (tactical marines), you don't need to go out of your way for them. SM troops are expensive so you need to ration your points to put in as many toys as possible.

well, what stops the savy space marine player from hitting the dread with a power fist, and if that fails, run the hell away and shoot after?

no one is saying that a krak grenade is better than a fist. What some people correctly (IMO) are pointing out is that those 25pts could be better spent elsewhere.