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with all the talk of DA terminators being so good, what about space wolf termy list?
5 drop pod terminators with power swords, storm bolters and counter attack for 200pts will be a real counter add in some twc if you want to and its fun and deadly.
and lets not forget blood angels with 3 fast moving vindicators

BT Vindis > BA Vindis. For a price of course.

The problem is that 200p for 5 chaos termies with CA and a pod is decent at best. (Chaos can get 6 of those + 4 Combis for the same price)

They are a counter, but they still fall fast against TH/SS.

@Fox40
Loganwing is good, that is an established fact. They win tournaments regularly.

The unit you describe though relies on getting into combat and they have no fists? A dreadnought takes that unit out of the game, hell a sentinel takes that unit out of the game.

3 fast vindies is good, but you need a list built around it to work. 3 vindies alone won't win anything and the new DW will crush them as they have 12-14 missile launchers on the move and a 3++. Proper spacing minimize damage and a single missile can shut the vindie down.

I'm not sure I understand your point, are you saving SW or BA will beat the new BT and DA using the units you list or that those units are as good? And in what context?

Yah, seems like I am going to need to watch out for all those terminators for now. 2 terminator themed armies, with a third on the way. The meta just got FETHED UP!

I thought the targeting system for the CML was built into a storm bolter, and required the operator to take a storm bolter?

I could be wrong, and going off very old info, but that is what I remember.

Even if the squad had to take 1 storm bolter it's not the end of the world because that means the squad can also take a chainfist for completely wrecking walkers. Thunder hammers get really iffy against some walkers such as ironclad dreads or venerable dreads, but the addition of a chainfist will crush all hope....

Anyhow between DA and BT the DA seem the better rounded of the 2. Being able to mix CML with TH/SS and keep them as scoring units>double tank hunting CML on a tac termie squad.

@Schadenfreude

That's the old rules. I wanna say second/third edition? I still have one of those models

And I agree. I think DA's are actually the better balanced fo the two now. And they can get some pretty cheap Venerable dreads too

Such a shame! I hovered on the idea of a Deathwing army for several months before going with DoA because it was stronger. A shame

@lunarman
AH, that is a bummer! Oh well, now you have an excuse to buy another army. It is small and pretty cheap, really. Like, $200 retail buys you the army! Haha. Not bad at all.

@Hulk and Shaden
Yeah, the Cyclone does not require a targeter anymore.

You guys may be right about DA being superior to BT, time will tell, but I think the BT will have the edge. I am going to try both and see what I find out, but my gut says the BTs will pull out some sick lists that are better against a wider spectrum of armies, although DA will certainly be a powerhouse now, even with the chill touch of Jervis lingering on their book! Haha.

Reecius wrote:@lunarman
AH, that is a bummer! Oh well, now you have an excuse to buy another army. It is small and pretty cheap, really. Like, $200 retail buys you the army! Haha. Not bad at all.

@Hulk and Shaden
Yeah, the Cyclone does not require a targeter anymore.

You guys may be right about DA being superior to BT, time will tell, but I think the BT will have the edge. I am going to try both and see what I find out, but my gut says the BTs will pull out some sick lists that are better against a wider spectrum of armies, although DA will certainly be a powerhouse now, even with the chill touch of Jervis lingering on their book! Haha.

BT will be the top codex creep army for a while because its' so good at killing mech, but as people adjust and start packing the AP2 weapons they will start finding themselves still having problems against DA. DA is solid against mech, it's just not as overwhelmingly powerful against it as BT. It's going to take a bit, but the top tier players will know dealing with the 30 scoring unit terminators is going to be one hell of a tall order, and 2/3 times the game is all about objectives.

Basically you've got the same number of missiles (assuming 3 squads of 2 Cyclones) as a DA list though BT's do have Tank hunters on theirs. DA's are spread out between 6 units to 3. DA's have the don't need to spend points on scoring units (since their whole army scores practically). BT's can get cheaper All Las Preds and Cheaper AC/Las preds but not by a significant degree. DA's can take more Venerables for cheaper. The characters are honestly about evenly matched.

From the above (which could be wrong) I think the DA termie heavy list pulls significantly ahead of the BT's. Example of a 2k version of Reece's BT's:

Belial-130
4x5 Termies w/4 TH/SS, 1 LC, Cyclone-940
1x5 Termies w/5 TH/SS, Cyclone, Apoth, Standard-290
3xTyphoons-225
3xAC/Las Preds-390

And with 30pts to spare for upgrades of whatever sort. Wrecks mech slightly (very slightly) worse but doesn't fear losing it's scorers and it's anti-tank is far more resilient. And it's pretty much got the same number of models

Hulk, a BT list can still take cheap Las/Plas squads as well, and their Marshal can become immune to ID and grants Ld10 to the whole army. The templar termie's tank hunting weapons will put more of the hurt on a mech list than the DW will, and against mech marines, the Tank Hunting Storm Bolters can hurt as well. (Look out razorback spam wolves/Blood Angels!).

My problem is, I'd run a DW list with just termies and dreads, so no typhoons or preds for me. I believe a Librarian is a must for a DW force as well, because a single lash could ruin your day.

whitedragon wrote:Hulk, a BT list can still take cheap Las/Plas squads as well, and their Marshal can become immune to ID and grants Ld10 to the whole army. The templar termie's tank hunting weapons will put more of the hurt on a mech list than the DW will, and against mech marines, the Tank Hunting Storm Bolters can hurt as well. (Look out razorback spam wolves/Blood Angels!).

My problem is, I'd run a DW list with just termies and dreads, so no typhoons or preds for me. I believe a Librarian is a must for a DW force as well, because a single lash could ruin your day.

At least DW have access to TH/SS and psychic hood. BT have no access to TH/SS on their tank hunting termies, and no access to psychic hoods. Lash+Oblit plasma cannons=bad news for 5+ invos

Yeah, but the stupid DW libby is Ld9, I forgot about that, too. That means he will hardly ever stop a power. Ezekiel is LD10, but he blows goats.

No one mentioned it but:

2x 3 man ravenwing squads with 2 meltas each

scout pregame

Absorb turn 1 shooting and are fearless, meaning you need to wipe them with a 3+ cover save to avoid THIS...

deathwing assault turn 1, all the bikes come with teleport homers, you drop 3 units of termies (im going 3x th/ss, 1 chainfist, 1 set of claws, cyclone) within 6 inches of the enemy DZ turn 1

profit

They can't turbo boost with their scout move.

Bummer.

Still not bad though, just not as good as it could be.

I think the best way to do this is to just reserve one unit of termies. You want the others on the board shooting every turn. Keep one as an ace in the hole.

BT can still take the god chaplain, the one with terminator honors, furious charge, and adamantine mantle (immune to ID). 6 attacks on charge at ws 5, reroll to hit, strength 5, initiative 6.

Their old captain still has rites of battle and access to old wargear.

However, the BT pay a lot of old point costs for things that are now less in points than before, like rhinos, droppods, attack bikes, etc.

I think the lack of psychic defense hurts as well.

Actually, now that I think about it, because of the preferred enemy vow, instead of a chaplain you would do the double lightning claw captain.

Captain, double lightning claws, adamantine mantle, furious charge. 6 attacks on charge at WS 5, reroll to hit, reroll strength 5 to wound. Leadership 10 to all friendly BT units.

Duel wing sounds nice at the 2500 point level. It gives a unit of fnp termies and a unit of fnp bikes. Could go with 3 units of termies as elites, 3 as troops, and 3 units of bikes as troops for turn 5 turbo boosting onto objectives. The problem is the damn hq for ravenwing is real expensive.

Reecius wrote:Yeah, but the stupid DW libby is Ld9, I forgot about that, too. That means he will hardly ever stop a power. Ezekiel is LD10, but he blows goats.

If it's Deathwing, you have Belial on the field with the rites of battle... Using the hood is not a psychic test, so you could use the LD 10 from the rites...

Brilliant! I had not thought of that!

Hmm, that might need to go to YMDC, as the hood states specifically what it is used for and an opposed characteristic test is not one of them.

Reecius wrote:They can't turbo boost with their scout move.

Bummer.

Still not bad though, just not as good as it could be.

I think the best way to do this is to just reserve one unit of termies. You want the others on the board shooting every turn. Keep one as an ace in the hole.

gw faq says

Q: Can bikes Turbo Boost during their Scout move? (p76)
A: Yes they now can, but remember that they have to
remain more than 12” away from the enemy as they move.

edit: See the lists I posted!

gw faq says

Q: Can bikes Turbo Boost during their Scout move? (p76)
A: Yes they now can, but remember that they have to
remain more than 12” away from the enemy as they move.

edit: See the lists I posted!

It says specifically in the DA codex that they may not use turbo boost in their scout move. Codex trumps rulebook...but! with that logic landspeeders are scoring, assuming they are a ravenwing bike squad attachment

Rites of Battle: If a company master is on the table then all other Dark Angels units may use his leadership for Morale, Pinning, or Leadership tests, but not Psychic tests.

Psychic Hood: Declare that you'll use the psychic hood after an opponent has successfully made a psychic test, but before they have used the power. Each player then rolls a D6 and adds their model's leadership value to the score. If the Space Marine Librarian beats the opposing model's score then the psychic power is nullified and may not be used that turn.

I don't know...use of a psychic hood is not technically a psychic test, so RAW it's legal. But it does seem like a loophole, so I've avoided using this.

This was fixed in future books by the wording of rites of battle...which slowly and slowly gets worse and worse each iteration that we see the rule.

Edit: I'd forgotten about this, but using a psychic hood this way is NOT a leadership test. A leadership test is defined in the rulebook. A psychic hood is technically its own entity. Since rites of battle specifies Morale, Pinning, or leadership tests, it's kinda sketchy to use rites of battle on a leadership +d6 test. (Normal leadership is two dice)

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/340185.page#2334622

It isn't one of the listed things Rites affects, either. SO I would have to say no, unfortunately.

They can take an Inquisitor ally though, for the hood.

I would propose for black templars an army similar to Ultra mauleens.

Capt, 5 terminator command squad, tank hunters, 2 cyclones

3*5 elite terminators, tank hunters, 2 cyclones.

bunch of las plas squads. If you prefer rhino squads, you can make special weapon/p. fist rhino squads.
If you prefer razor squads, you can do 5 man special/twin las razorback.

Typhoon speeders/attack bikes.

It's ultramauleens all over again, except tooled for 5th using cyclones, transports, deep striking, and landspeeders instead of the old assault cannon spam.

Whoops, wrong posting.

Volkov wrote:

gw faq says

Q: Can bikes Turbo Boost during their Scout move? (p76)
A: Yes they now can, but remember that they have to
remain more than 12” away from the enemy as they move.

edit: See the lists I posted!

It says specifically in the DA codex that they may not use turbo boost in their scout move. Codex trumps rulebook...but! with that logic landspeeders are scoring, assuming they are a ravenwing bike squad attachment

That's true-- they are scoring.

The problem is that to take the scoring landspeeder you have to first take 6 ravenwing bikes and then spend 100 points for specifically heavy bolter/assault cannon landspeeder.

It's just too many points to get a scoring landspeeder.

The problem is that to take the scoring landspeeder you have to first take 6 ravenwing bikes and then spend 100 points for specifically heavy bolter/assault cannon landspeeder.

It's just too many points to get a scoring landspeeder.

Well I usually play pure ravenwing so in a normal army I have 3 scoring landspeeders...pretty nice if you ask me

Well, I'm just saying it's not overpowered or anything. It's not like Dark Angels didn't pay alot of points for a scoring landspeeder. Assault cannon heavy bolter? As a reminder, a dakka pred costs 85 points in VSM and 95 in DA. 100 for BA, but the BA version is fast. That scoring landspeeder costs 100 points and in this edition can't move 12" and fire both guns.

Volkov wrote:

The problem is that to take the scoring landspeeder you have to first take 6 ravenwing bikes and then spend 100 points for specifically heavy bolter/assault cannon landspeeder.

It's just too many points to get a scoring landspeeder.

Well I usually play pure ravenwing so in a normal army I have 3 scoring landspeeders...pretty nice if you ask me

I'm pretty sure the scoring units section in the base rule book requires that scoring units not be vehicles, troops choice or otherwise.

Edit: If you wish a reference please direct yourself to page 90 of the BRB. It mentions being a vehicle as one of the exceptions of troops being scoring.

Thaylen wrote:

Volkov wrote:

The problem is that to take the scoring landspeeder you have to first take 6 ravenwing bikes and then spend 100 points for specifically heavy bolter/assault cannon landspeeder.

It's just too many points to get a scoring landspeeder.

Well I usually play pure ravenwing so in a normal army I have 3 scoring landspeeders...pretty nice if you ask me

I'm pretty sure the scoring units section in the base rule book requires that scoring units not be vehicles, troops choice or otherwise.

You are correct, however its totally besides the point. DA codex explicity states that speeders taken as a part of a RW squad are scoring.