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Tim the Biovore wrote:I love this thread.

Well it was bio-genetically engineered for both Tims and Biovores so it should be right up your alley.

Ahtman wrote:

Tim the Biovore wrote:I love this thread.

Well it was bio-genetically engineered for both Tims and Biovores so it should be right up your alley.

I love this thread even more now.

Ahtman wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:If you examine all the various catechisms and find the common factors, then that would be the core of Christianity.

Haven't you been reading? Amaya gets to decide who is Christian and who isn't.

I'm still waiting for you to explain how people who kill in the name of Jesus (y'know the guy who says love everyone?) are Christian.

Amaya wrote:

Ahtman wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:If you examine all the various catechisms and find the common factors, then that would be the core of Christianity.

Haven't you been reading? Amaya gets to decide who is Christian and who isn't.

I'm still waiting for you to explain how people who kill in the name of Jesus (y'know the guy who says love everyone?) are Christian.

Now i get to use this one

Amaya wrote:

Ahtman wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:If you examine all the various catechisms and find the common factors, then that would be the core of Christianity.

Haven't you been reading? Amaya gets to decide who is Christian and who isn't.

I'm still waiting for you to explain how people who kill in the name of Jesus (y'know the guy who says love everyone?) are Christian.

Because they claimed to be so and their belief in such was either partly or in whole a motivator for their actions. Pretending they weren't Christian doesn't change what has happened. Your myopic understanding of how faith and philosophy works in the human animal is why you have trouble understanding that others that believe differently from you can claim the same things as you. They would say you aren't a Christian because you don't do what they do.

Let's see.

How do you define Christianity?

Do you use the tenants establish by groups that openly go against Christ's commandants? No...

If those are eliminated (which would be every Church), you're left one with the fact that there is not a single active, practicing, truly Christian Church.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ahtman wrote:

Amaya wrote:

Ahtman wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:If you examine all the various catechisms and find the common factors, then that would be the core of Christianity.

Haven't you been reading? Amaya gets to decide who is Christian and who isn't.

I'm still waiting for you to explain how people who kill in the name of Jesus (y'know the guy who says love everyone?) are Christian.

Because they claimed to be so and their belief in such was either partly or in whole a motivator for their actions. Pretending they weren't Christian doesn't change what has happened. Your myopic understanding of how faith and philosophy works in the human animal is why you have trouble understanding that others that believe differently from you can claim the same things as you. They would say you aren't a Christian because you don't do what they do.

A Christian is defined as a follower of Jesus Christ.
Jesus said that murdering people is wrong.
Someone commits murder in the name of Jesus.
How can they possibly be Christian?

I can believe that I am a Unicorn. Does that make me a Unicorn?

Amaya wrote:
Do you use the tenants establish by groups that openly go against Christ's commandants?

And this, my young padawan, is why you fail. The tenets (not tenant, you aren't leasing them out) haven't always been the same, and people disagree on what they mean and what they are. Just because two people accept Jesus Christ as the son of God doesn't mean that they will both believe the same thing. They aren't immutable and a great deal has changed over time. But that is what happens to living, breathing religions. If we took you back 100 years you would probably think they were crazy, and the further back we go, the more unrecognizable it gets. The fact you cannot grasp this fundamental fact means, again, you aren't geared for this discussion or you are just being difficult. Some take the fact that it is evolved over time as a sign that it is false whereas others see it as a positive note that Christianity is still alive and vibrant and being discussed.

Ahtman wrote:

Amaya wrote:
Do you use the tenants establish by groups that openly go against Christ's commandants?

And this, my young padawan, is why you fail. The tenets (not tenant, you aren't leasing them out) haven't always been the same, and people disagree on what they mean and what they are. Just because two people accept Jesus Christ as the son of God doesn't mean that they will both believe the same thing. They aren't immutable and a great deal has changed over time. But that is what happens to living, breathing religions. If we took you back 100 years you would probably think they were crazy, and the further back we go, the more unrecognizable it gets. The fact you cannot grasp this fundamental fact means, again, you aren't geared for this discussion or you are just being difficult. Some take the fact that it is evolved over time as a sign that it is false whereas others see it as a positive note that Christianity is still alive and vibrant and being discussed.

Way to ignore my post.

Really, opinions on the Bible change? They're different now than they were in 500 AD? There haven't always been Protestants and Catholics? Oh. My. God.


Get back to me when you can explain how someone who commits murder and torture in the name of Jesus can be a Christian.

It would help if you understand that Jesus says to love everyone, love your neighbor as yourself, and all that jazz in every translation of the NT.

Amaya wrote:

Ahtman wrote:

Amaya wrote:
Do you use the tenants establish by groups that openly go against Christ's commandants?

And this, my young padawan, is why you fail. The tenets (not tenant, you aren't leasing them out) haven't always been the same, and people disagree on what they mean and what they are. Just because two people accept Jesus Christ as the son of God doesn't mean that they will both believe the same thing. They aren't immutable and a great deal has changed over time. But that is what happens to living, breathing religions. If we took you back 100 years you would probably think they were crazy, and the further back we go, the more unrecognizable it gets. The fact you cannot grasp this fundamental fact means, again, you aren't geared for this discussion or you are just being difficult. Some take the fact that it is evolved over time as a sign that it is false whereas others see it as a positive note that Christianity is still alive and vibrant and being discussed.

Way to ignore my post.

Really, opinions on the Bible change? They're different now than they were in 500 AD? There haven't always been Protestants and Catholics? Oh. My. God.


Get back to me when you can explain how someone who commits murder and torture in the name of Jesus can be a Christian.

It would help if you understand that Jesus says to love everyone, love your neighbor as yourself, and all that jazz in every translation of the NT.

Because they believe themselves christian, and the head of the christian faith supported them

And let me guess, the Pope infallible, right?

Amaya wrote:Way to ignore my post.

Really, opinions on the Bible change? They're different now than they were in 500 AD? There haven't always been Protestants and Catholics? Oh. My. God.

You are the acting like they just fell off the turnip truck and know very little about the Christian faith or it's history beyond what is taught children in Sunday school.

Amaya wrote:Get back to me when you can explain how someone who commits murder and torture in the name of Jesus can be a Christian.

It would help if you understand that Jesus says to love everyone, love your neighbor as yourself, and all that jazz in every translation of the NT.

Bring any turnips with you in the fall?

Amaya wrote:
Get back to me when you can explain how someone who commits murder and torture in the name of Jesus can be a Christian.

It would help if you understand that Jesus says to love everyone, love your neighbor as yourself, and all that jazz in every translation of the NT.

How do you explain the HOLY crusades?

I think it is time you exited this discussion, as you seem to be ignoring everyone else's post

I am sure the Bible can spread upon us some light about why Christians may of believed that killing in the Lord's name (and Jesus) is okay as we look upon Bible passages that may be construed as thumbs up for killing people:

Deuteronomy 17-

If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

A whole list of reasons why Bible tells to kill:

http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm

WarOne wrote:I am sure the Bible can spread upon us some light about why Christians may of believed that killing in the Lord's name (and Jesus) is okay as we look upon Bible passages that may be construed as thumbs up for killing people:

Deuteronomy 17-

If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

A whole list of reasons why Bible tells to kill:

http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm

What else to you stone someone with, potatoes.

Squig_herder wrote:

Amaya wrote:
Get back to me when you can explain how someone who commits murder and torture in the name of Jesus can be a Christian.

It would help if you understand that Jesus says to love everyone, love your neighbor as yourself, and all that jazz in every translation of the NT.

How do you explain the HOLY crusades?

I think it is time you exited this discussion, as you seem to be ignoring everyone else's post

Let's go over it once again. Jesus says DO NOT KILL. These so called 'Christians' killed millions in his name. How can they POSSIBLY be Christian?

Because they believe themselves to be Christian is not a valid answer. The first issue with that is that you accept what they are saying at face value. Do you really think that the Pope who commanded a Holy War against Muslims would ever come out and say, "Hey guys, I was just using you for political reasons. Jesus actually says we should be nice to them."

There isn't a simple explanation for the Crusades. To begin with, which Crusade are you referring to? The first Crusade began as means to drive out Muslim invaders from the Byzantine Empire. Of course, it isn't that simple. Suffice to say, they certainly weren't done to spread to loving word of God.

youbedead wrote:

WarOne wrote:I am sure the Bible can spread upon us some light about why Christians may of believed that killing in the Lord's name (and Jesus) is okay as we look upon Bible passages that may be construed as thumbs up for killing people:

Deuteronomy 17-

If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

A whole list of reasons why Bible tells to kill:

http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm

What else to you stone someone with, potatoes.

I think the Bible needed to be specifically clear, as other more inventive means of death could be heresey to say the least, PG-17 if we involve some words that only adults know.

WarOne wrote:I am sure the Bible can spread upon us some light about why Christians may of believed that killing in the Lord's name (and Jesus) is okay as we look upon Bible passages that may be construed as thumbs up for killing people:

Deuteronomy 17-

If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

A whole list of reasons why Bible tells to kill:

http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm

Didn't Jesus say "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone?"

Amaya wrote:Let's go over it once again. Jesus says DO NOT KILL.

This quote here can be debated on what was meant by Jesus (as the quote is attributed to him in the Bible).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/But_to_bring_a_sword

Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it." (Matthew 10:34-39 NASB)

Amaya wrote:

Squig_herder wrote:

Amaya wrote:
Get back to me when you can explain how someone who commits murder and torture in the name of Jesus can be a Christian.

It would help if you understand that Jesus says to love everyone, love your neighbor as yourself, and all that jazz in every translation of the NT.

How do you explain the HOLY crusades?

I think it is time you exited this discussion, as you seem to be ignoring everyone else's post

Let's go over it once again. Jesus says DO NOT KILL. These so called 'Christians' killed millions in his name. How can they POSSIBLY be Christian?

Because they believe themselves to be Christian is not a valid answer. The first issue with that is that you accept what they are saying at face value. Do you really think that the Pope who commanded a Holy War against Muslims would ever come out and say, "Hey guys, I was just using you for political reasons. Jesus actually says we should be nice to them."

There isn't a simple explanation for the Crusades. To begin with, which Crusade are you referring to? The first Crusade began as means to drive out Muslim invaders from the Byzantine Empire. Of course, it isn't that simple. Suffice to say, they certainly weren't done to spread to loving word of God.

No, of course not, they were done to increase the economic power of italian cities. religion was used as a tool to recruit soldiers.

Jesus said love your enemies. Not quite an explicit order to not kill. I can't recall if he had any thoughts on Capital Punishment or Self-Defense.

Amaya wrote:
Didn't Jesus say "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone?"

Dammit Mum!





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youbedead wrote:No, of course not, they were done to increase the economic power of italian cities. religion was used as a tool to recruit soldiers.

Not sure if serious. If so, sure, maybe every high ranking member of the clergy was driven by greed (unlikely), but would you consider the faithful masses that flocked to the cause to be Christian?

To Argue the Angle of Being Christian and Being Violent:

Christianity has two halves of a holy scripture from which to draw inspiration, the Hebrew influenced Old Testament, and the Jesus inspired New Testament.

In practice, Jesus rarely condones or commits violence.

In practice, everyone else in the Bible pre-Jesus can be downright sadistic.

How did one reconcile a peaceful philosophy for twenty one centuries of human history, where you follow the belief of redemption and forgiveness Jesus taught?

Keep in mind that you have over 2000 years of history to sift through in order to determine how Christians reconciled with war and peace.

Wikipedia short version: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_violence

For instance:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Clermont

Pope Urban II justifies "Holy War."

WarOne wrote:

Amaya wrote:Let's go over it once again. Jesus says DO NOT KILL.

This quote here can be debated on what was meant by Jesus (as the quote is attributed to him in the Bible).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/But_to_bring_a_sword

Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it." (Matthew 10:34-39 NASB)

I applaud you for actually bringing the NT.

This is one of the most hotly debated verses in the NT. Some claim it endorses violence, others do not.

Now, Jesus is on the record as saying, "Turn the other cheek." Love your neighbors as yourself." in addition to similar things. It would be a bit contradictory of him to go and support violence, wouldn't it? Of course the Bible is full of contradictions.

I'll digress and give you my interpretation. Jews believed that Messiah would come and bring literal peace. In this verse Jesus is saying that, no, he's not going to make everything all happy go lucky overnight. He's going to force you to make the painful choice between man and God. He is saying that you should not love any person more than you love God. This of course would cause problems if you're the only Christian in the household and others don't care for your beliefs. As far as giving up your life for his, that would mean you are sacrificing your worldly desires and goals to follow in his footseps.

I think it's a significant stretch to say that this verse can be used to condone violence.


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Emperors Faithful wrote:Jesus said love your enemies. Not quite an explicit order to not kill. I can't recall if he had any thoughts on Capital Punishment or Self-Defense.

Amaya wrote:
Didn't Jesus say "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone?"

Dammit Mum!

Spoiler:

The Virgin Mary is sometimes interpreted to have been without sin, geddit?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

youbedead wrote:No, of course not, they were done to increase the economic power of italian cities. religion was used as a tool to recruit soldiers.

Not sure if serious. If so, sure, maybe every high ranking member of the clergy was driven by greed (unlikely), but would you consider the faithful masses that flocked to the cause to be Christian?

There is a reason for the saying "absolute power corrupts absolutely".

Amaya wrote:

There is a reason for the saying "absolute power corrupts absolutely".

God is Omnipotent. All-powerful. Is that relevant?


Nevermind, veering off-topic, this is what I really wanted you to address.

I can't recall if he had any thoughts on Capital Punishment or Self-Defense.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Amaya wrote:

There is a reason for the saying "absolute power corrupts absolutely".

God is Omnipotent. All-powerful. Is that relevant?


Nevermind, veering off-topic, this is what I really wanted you to address.

I can't recall if he had any thoughts on Capital Punishment or Self-Defense.

I assume you mean Jesus?

God is an donkey-cave. "You don't worship me! Go to hell!" Not cool...

edit: switched believe to worship

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youbedead wrote:No, of course not, they were done to increase the economic power of italian cities. religion was used as a tool to recruit soldiers.

Not sure if serious. If so, sure, maybe every high ranking member of the clergy was driven by greed (unlikely), but would you consider the faithful masses that flocked to the cause to be Christian?

After Constantinople was sacked Italian cities like Venice became the main traders in the Mediterranean and the orient.

Amaya wrote:I assume you mean Jesus?

God is an donkey-cave. "You don't worship me! Go to hell!" Not cool...

edit: switched believe to worship

Whaa-?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

youbedead wrote:
After Constantinople was sacked Italian cities like Venice became the main traders in the Mediterranean and the orient.

You've got the wrong Crusade.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Amaya wrote:I assume you mean Jesus?

God is an donkey-cave. "You don't worship me! Go to hell!" Not cool...

edit: switched believe to worship

Whaa-?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

youbedead wrote:
After Constantinople was sacked Italian cities like Venice became the main traders in the Mediterranean and the orient.

You've got the wrong Crusade.

Well, don't you think it's kind mean to send people who won't worship you to Hell?

I'll narrow my point a bit as I got up and now am tired as need sleep:

A Christian, despite what Jesus may say, has and will use violence when needed, as Jesus is one aspect of the Christian faith; you must also include in the context historical setting and cultural background along with the faction of Christianity and their views on the Bible. Our hindsight allows us to see Christians being hypocritical or obeying the scriptures regarding the teachings of Jesus. Some Christians had a right to their violence (or face extermination), and others used violence as a means to an end.

Amaya wrote:Well, don't you think it's kind mean to send people who won't worship you to Hell?

I guess...

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Amaya wrote:Well, don't you think it's kind mean to send people who won't worship you to Hell?

I guess...

No...everyone is allowed into Heaven.

Oh wait...the OTHER part of the Bible...