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Pael wrote:Here is my other thought, to be truly Christian you have to actually achieve the above definition, not just strive for it. Unfortunately this is almost impossible since there is so much variation in the interpretations of His teachings.

If of course it isn't anything more than a bunch of ramblings credited to a fictional character. All the stuff about being good to thy neighbour is alright, if delusional, but when people still believe things what people said hundreds of years ago to explain the unkown, when in this day and age there's perfectly good answers out there, or at least enough information available to even a kid to disaprove the notions put forth by relegion, then you've got someone who's just plain foolish. We're still living in a world full of cults, and yet to move into one where science is there to answer all those dumb questions, so yeah, cults'll exist till then, and probably even after that because there'll likely never be an end to simple human ignorance.

Misguidance wrote:What I really love is Creationists who tell other Christians they are going to hell because they are not creationists. (Personal experience, that.) I wonder why it is that one isn't allowed to believe in Science and God at the same time?

The Pope is going to Hell? I had him pegged as one of the least likely people to end up downstairs.

The Bringer wrote:Okay, lets stop the discussion right here on the validity of Christianity or Evolution.


This is the second thing a Christian would say to an Evolutionist,

"Suppose you are right, suppose I'm right. Which would you rather do, live life for the pleasures of the world and then die and not exist, or would you rather live for God, in hope of his eternal everlasting kingdom."

100 years is a short life. I was 10 just a moment ago, I could remember my birthday. Suddenly I'm a lot older, what happened to all that time? I'd rather live for God than for the world, if for nothing else, the promise of God in the Bible.

That is all I will say.

Taking the blue pill I see. Given the choice between remaining ignorant or accepting the harshness of reality, it seems that most choose the former, a world of happy endings and bullcrap.¬¬

The Bringer wrote:Okay, lets stop the discussion right here on the validity of Christianity or Evolution.


This is the second thing a Christian would say to an Evolutionist,

"Suppose you are right, suppose I'm right. Which would you rather do, live life for the pleasures of the world and then die and not exist, or would you rather live for God, in hope of his eternal everlasting kingdom."

100 years is a short life. I was 10 just a moment ago, I could remember my birthday. Suddenly I'm a lot older, what happened to all that time? I'd rather live for God than for the world, if for nothing else, the promise of God in the Bible.

That is all I will say.

I'd rather enjoy my life right now thank you, rather than restrict it based on ropey, outdated prejudices which seem to contradict each other at almost every turn. I mean, have you read some of what the Bible espouses? No thank you!

The Bringer wrote:Okay, lets stop the discussion right here on the validity of Christianity or Evolution.


This is the second thing a Christian would say to an Evolutionist,

"Suppose you are right, suppose I'm right. Which would you rather do, live life for the pleasures of the world and then die and not exist, or would you rather live for God, in hope of his eternal everlasting kingdom."

100 years is a short life. I was 10 just a moment ago, I could remember my birthday. Suddenly I'm a lot older, what happened to all that time? I'd rather live for God than for the world, if for nothing else, the promise of God in the Bible.

That is all I will say.

So beleif in god is dependant on a healthy fear of death, also we wernt really questioning god we were questioning creationism. I have no problem with the idea of god, the fact is im agnostic if there is a god great if not then i wouldent really mind now would i?

(the great thing about not existing anymore is that you wouldnet mind about it now would you? best not to think about in all honesty)

The Bringer wrote:
This is the second thing a Christian would say to an Evolutionist,

One can be Christian and believe in evolution.

The Bringer wrote:
"Suppose you are right, suppose I'm right. Which would you rather do, live life for the pleasures of the world and then die and not exist, or would you rather live for God, in hope of his eternal everlasting kingdom."

Why stop with those two choices? Why not live for the God of the Koran or the Torah? Why not embrace the Vedas and become a Hindu, or the teaching of Buddha and become a Buddhist?

You've set up a false dichotomy here. The choice isn't merely between Christianity and Materialism (not atheism, as atheists can believe in a supernatural after life), but between all possible resolutions to the question "What would you rather believe?"

Personally, I think the question is nonsense. Whatever is true regarding the world will be true no matter what I believe. As such, all I can do is live my life according to what I desire, based upon the evidence provided. I see no evidence for the existence of God, and so I do not live my life as though God exists.

The Bringer wrote:Okay, then please give me a link to how the universe came from an explosion in nothingness?

Logically, you can't get 3 apples from nothing, you can't get 0+0 = 5000. It is impossible.

No credible theory posits that universe came to be out of nothingness (in fact, very few physicists posit the existence of true nothingness). Most current cosmological models turn on some form of infinite regress in which the term "universe" refers to a cosmological body governed by a consistent set of physical laws.

Additionally, you can derive 5000 from 0 if a certain set special conditions exist whereby 0+0=5000. In general, that type of inconsistency is a sign that our understanding of the physics involved is incomplete.

You see, the way some Christians portray God puts me in mind of the abusive husband, laying into his wife, all the while bellowing 'see what you made me do'.

And I know they are in the minority, but still, not a God I'd ever find deserving of worship.

You realize the Christianity, I believe, is the only religion where the deity, in this case God, actually loved man?

Do you realize there is no other religion (to the best of my knowledge) where God sent his only son to save us from our sin?

So would you rather chose between that or Buddhism? Or Hinduism? Or this or that...


And no, one can be a Christian and believe in Evolution. Any man who does denies that God created the universe is not a Christian.

The Bringer wrote:Okay, lets stop the discussion right here on the validity of Christianity or Evolution.


This is the second thing a Christian would say to an Evolutionist,

"Suppose you are right, suppose I'm right. Which would you rather do, live life for the pleasures of the world and then die and not exist, or would you rather live for God, in hope of his eternal everlasting kingdom."

100 years is a short life. I was 10 just a moment ago, I could remember my birthday. Suddenly I'm a lot older, what happened to all that time? I'd rather live for God than for the world, if for nothing else, the promise of God in the Bible.

That is all I will say.

I would much rather enjoy living and experiencing as much as I possibly could before I die, rather than limiting myself in order to gain a reward that may or may not exist.

I avoid the question of the afterlife by planning on not dying

The Bringer wrote:And no, one can not be a Christian and believe in Evolution. Any man who does denies that God created the universe is not a Christian.

Seriously?

One can believe that god populated the world (and possibly by extension the universe) with life by creating the "laws of nature", one of which is the process of evolution and still remain a Christian. I believe (not that I want to put words in their mouths) they think the bible is more of a metaphor than a word for word bastion of absolute truth.

The Bringer wrote:

And no, one can not be a Christian and believe in Evolution. Any man who does denies that God created the universe is not a Christian.

So it's impossible that God gave the universe a nudge in the right direction with the Big Bang and let things go from there? Letting the natural matter come together into Man and animals and so on and so forth.

So you don't believe in evolution at all? Not even that viruses and bacteria mutate, and dare I say, evolve through successive generations to better increase their chances of survival by becoming resistant to common treatment methods?

First of all, there is a difference between micro and macro evolution. I believe that over time, there will be minuscule changes in creatures, but they have always had the ability to take on those characteristics. For example, the Darwin's finches all had different beaks. I don't believe, however, that a fish turned into a dinosaur which then turned into a bird.

Also, Genesis would beg to differ with Evolution. They can not be combined. A Christian must believe the whole bible, not select chapters. Because of that, a true Christian could not be a Evolutionist, though they may claim to be both.

I leave for a day... O.O The DaVinci Code thing was a joke, btw. Figured people would catch that...

micahaphone wrote:Sweet Jesus that's five whole pages of nitpicking! A person is a Christian if they say believe they are. If they are hateful and wrong, like the WBC or the KKK, then they are hypocritical Christians. If they don't really follow any of the teachings, but still believe, then they're casual Christians. That's it!

Quit defining things, we're trying to argue.

Mr Mystery wrote:You see, the way some Christians portray God puts me in mind of the abusive husband, laying into his wife, all the while bellowing 'see what you made me do'.

And I know they are in the minority, but still, not a God I'd ever find deserving of worship.

At the very least he's super bipolar.

The Bringer wrote:You realize the Christianity, I believe, is the only religion where the deity, in this case God, actually loved man?

Do you realize there is no other religion (to the best of my knowledge) where God sent his only son to save us from our sin?

So would you rather chose between that or Buddhism? Or Hinduism? Or this or that...


And no, one can not be a Christian and believe in Evolution. Any man who does denies that God created the universe is not a Christian.

Evolution and God creating the universe are not the same thing.

No offence, old bean, but your ideas and knowledge on this topic seem to be rather muddled.

Last sentence had a typo KK

The Bringer wrote:You realize the Christianity, I believe, is the only religion where the deity, in this case God, actually loved man?

I'm not particularly interested in whether or not some God or another specifically state that it loves me. Most religions offer a path to salvation in paradise, or something very much like it, which is sufficiently indicative of "love" for me.

In any case, no, that is incorrect. Islam also makes mention of God's love for man. In the predominant Eastern religions the concept is nonsensical, as God does not exist in the monotheistic sense.

The Bringer wrote:
Do you realize there is no other religion (to the best of my knowledge) where God sent his only son to save us from our sin?

Technically he sent himself, but that's a minor theological point.

The Bringer wrote:
So would you rather chose between that or Buddhism? Or Hinduism? Or this or that...

Its not a matter of preference, its a matter of reality. Whether or not I want to believe something has no bearing on the truth of the belief.

The Bringer wrote:
And no, one can not be a Christian and believe in Evolution. Any man who does denies that God created the universe is not a Christian.

That's not what evolution is. Evolution simply posits that, over time, living things evolve in order to adapt to their environment. This process does not preclude the existence of a creator God; indeed, many believe that evolution is merely a description of the process by which God created, and influences, the Universe.

The Bringer wrote:This is the second thing a Christian would say to an Evolutionist,

An intelligent Christian would say "So why are we arguing anyway?" because there's nothing inherently contradictory between the theory of evolution and the texts of the Christian faith unless they latter is interpreted in a specific way.

But Creation was within 7 days? Macro evolution in that time? No.

The Bringer wrote:And no, one can be a Christian and believe in Evolution. Any man who does denies that God created the universe is not a Christian.

How is Creationism and god creating the universe joined? they're not they are two seperate beleifs

Melissia wrote:

The Bringer wrote:This is the second thing a Christian would say to an Evolutionist,

An intelligent Christian would say "So why are we arguing anyway?" because there's nothing inherently contradictory between the theory of evolution and the texts of the Christian faith unless they latter is interpreted in a specific way.

Everything is contradictory, I don't even understand how so many of you can believe both could co-exist.

Bible says:

God created the universe [from nothing] in 7 days.
Evolution says over time a little cell turned into every living creature, certainly not a process over 7 days.

How do those fit together again?

The Bringer wrote:
Also, Genesis would beg to differ with Evolution. They can not be combined. A Christian must believe the whole bible, not select chapters. Because of that, a true Christian could not be a Evolutionist, though they may claim to be both.

The Roman Catholic Church and millions of your fellow Protestants disagree, which really makes it seem that you're simply invoking a No True Scotsman.

After all, the Bible does not claim that it is written literally.

The Bringer wrote:But Creation was within 7 days? Macro evolution in that time? No.

"Seven days" to your god, not to us humans, who did not exist at the time. Is your god bound by our mortal concepts of time... or is your god beyond such petty things? How do you measure a day when there is no spinning Earth by which an arbitrary length of time called a "day" is to be measured?

The Bringer wrote:You realize the Christianity, I believe, is the only religion where the deity, in this case God, actually loved man?

Do you realize there is no other religion (to the best of my knowledge) where God sent his only son to save us from our sin?

So would you rather chose between that or Buddhism? Or Hinduism? Or this or that...

OTT personal attack removed. there are other relegions that use pretty much the same story, Christianity just stole the story and modified it to suite its purpose.¬¬

The Bringer wrote:But Creation was within 7 days? Macro evolution in that time? No.

Seven periods of 24 hours, or seven arbitrary periods of time whose only significant reference is the concomitant, eternal existence of God?

The Bringer wrote:First of all, there is a difference between micro and macro evolution. I believe that over time, there will be minuscule changes in creatures, but they have always had the ability to take on those characteristics. For example, the Darwin's finches all had different beaks. I don't believe, however, that a fish turned into a dinosaur which then turned into a bird.

I really, really don't get the acceptance of micro evolution but the denial of macro evolution.

Surely you can see that one leads to the other? A series of small changes leads to the original creature/organism being different to one Y generations down the line. The Yth generation continue adapting until the Zth generation, which again is quite different from the Yth generation and which is perhaps very different from the original creature.

Hell, if nothing else, google "cichlid". Many new species of cichlid have arisen in lakes cut off from the outside world from a single, or relatively small number of initial species of cichlid.

Also, Genesis would beg to differ with Evolution. They can not be combined. A Christian must believe the whole bible, not select chapters. Because of that, a true Christian could not be a Evolutionist, though they may claim to be both.

I think you will find that many Christians would disagree with you. However, this is an interesting view point none the less, and it certainly addresses the OP as to what constitutes a Christian.

And your history books aren't literal either... you know, Hitler really didn't kill all those Jews, Arthur never was a king, but he pretended to be...

7 days is a rough estimation of 700 million years...

Even if the Bible weren't literal, how could you still think that?


Macro and micro evolution have vast differences.

Macro evolution starts with something, and it becomes something else.
Micro evolution has something, and its genetic code allows for slight changes so that it can survive circumstances, but it cannot go out of those slight changes allowed in its genetic code.

I believe God allowed for that small genetic flexibility so that in Africa, men became black to better survive the conditions, some men had higher average height, some were fatter, some were skinnier, but none have beaks. None have feathers, not have talons.

Christianity is the only religion where god is just and loving?

Grumble angry words grumble.

The Bringer wrote:
Bible says:

God created the universe [from nothing] in 7 days.
Evolution says over time a little cell turned into every living creature, certainly not a process over 7 days.

How do those fit together again?

But where did god come from?

The Bringer wrote:Also, Genesis would beg to differ with Evolution. They can not be combined. A Christian must believe the whole bible, not select chapters. Because of that, a true Christian could not be a Evolutionist, though they may claim to be both.

You wouldent happen to work on a sunday would you...