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Ahhh...

Well there were several additions to this, here's the 2 possible ways that were proposed at the time:

IC takes no check, but the unit keeps the counter too, as it didn't move.

or

IC only takes the check and the counter is gone.

One observer made this statement, if the unit was an Eldar unit that was fortune'd, the unit would keep the effect but the character leaving wouldn't, should it be different for negative effects?

Discuss.

ahhh... good point. Didnt consider it that way!

A judge actually ruled the IC took the check and the counter stayed too.

I'm not sure which interpretation is right, but I think that most definitely wasn't. What do you think?

Looking at it the judge might have been right. If an IC leaves a unit which doesn't move then the unit doesn't count as moving. The unit has the marker until the unit moves. When the IC left he was part of the unit, and so had to take difficult and dangerous terrain tests.

If he didn't manage to move out of coherency then he would still be part of the unit and so the unit will have counted as moving and lost its marker, but if he got away they didn't move and as it's the unit that has the marker they still have it.

While doing a reading of the rules this looks right, but it doesn't feel like a good way to play.

Melchiour wrote:

Fayric wrote:For what its worth, I agree with Lone Dragoon.

"only models that move through into or out of the dangerous terrain must test". Yes, and the whole unit count as moving if one do so, so they all count as moving through it and test. (as page 17 BRB say "The most imporant thing to remember is that the whole unit counts as moving if any of its models moved in the movement phase", as pointed out by Lone Dragoon)
The specifics, as I see it is if half a unit streatch outside the dangerous area (not possible in the nightspinner situation).

However, Ive been posting all kinds of half thought through stuff lately. I need to sleep and read the rules again.

The whole unit counts as moving, but nothing states the whole unit counts as moving through dangerous terrain. Also if that were the case then the dangerous terrain section that states only models that move into through or out of dangerous terrain would not be needed.

The way I interpret the rules emphase on "models" is because, under normal circumstances, a unit can have models both in dangerous terrain and outside it, and clearly, only models that actually moved in the actual terrain would have to test. However, I wont argue with you lerned and experienced gamers.
Also, if I understood this right, the reason for moving just the single model would be to "trigger" the test and be done with the Spinners dangerous terrain (as it affect the unit the next time it moves)? Or is there some other point in moving just the one model the few inches that would still keep it in coherency?

As soon as the unit moves, the tokens are removed. So moving one model will trigger one dangerous test, yet make the unit count as moving, removing the counter.

Chrysis wrote:Looking at it the judge might have been right. If an IC leaves a unit which doesn't move then the unit doesn't count as moving. The unit has the marker until the unit moves. When the IC left he was part of the unit, and so had to take difficult and dangerous terrain tests.

If he didn't manage to move out of coherency then he would still be part of the unit and so the unit will have counted as moving and lost its marker, but if he got away they didn't move and as it's the unit that has the marker they still have it.

While doing a reading of the rules this looks right, but it doesn't feel like a good way to play.

If that were true, then this (the obverse) could happen, another IC could come over and join the unit and attach, then the unit would count as moving, he wouldn't have made any tests at all and the counter would be gone.

I don't think that's right either actually

I think the flaw is here:
.

Chrysis wrote:When the IC left he was part of the unit, and so had to take difficult and dangerous terrain tests.

I don't think he is part of the unit then, as soon as he chooses to leave the unit, he is a separate unit. Any kind of abilities that affect the unit, don't affect the IC anymore. This would mean several things:

An IC leaving would leave the counter on the unit.
An IC joining the unit would not trigger the counter removal.

Augustus wrote:

Chrysis wrote:Looking at it the judge might have been right. If an IC leaves a unit which doesn't move then the unit doesn't count as moving. The unit has the marker until the unit moves. When the IC left he was part of the unit, and so had to take difficult and dangerous terrain tests.

If he didn't manage to move out of coherency then he would still be part of the unit and so the unit will have counted as moving and lost its marker, but if he got away they didn't move and as it's the unit that has the marker they still have it.

While doing a reading of the rules this looks right, but it doesn't feel like a good way to play.

If that were true, then this (the obverse) could happen, another IC could come over and join the unit and attach, then the unit would count as moving, he wouldn't have made any tests at all and the counter would be gone.

I don't think that's right either actually

That is exactly how it reads to me, though.

Do you think so? Very well I suppose.

I was wondering this, if an IC left a unit, of say longfangs, would they count as moving? and therefore loose their fire?

If not, by the same logic, shouldn't the IC also be able to leave and not affect the spinner token effect on the unit?

Augustus wrote:Do you think so? Very well I suppose.

I was wondering this, if an IC left a unit, of say longfangs, would they count as moving? and therefore loose their fire?

If not, by the same logic, shouldn't the IC also be able to leave and not affect the spinner token effect on the unit?

That is covered on page 48, actually. 5th bullet.

Yup. Funny situation, but I agree with Chrysis and Kirsanth.

Augustus wrote:I think the flaw is here:
.

Chrysis wrote:When the IC left he was part of the unit, and so had to take difficult and dangerous terrain tests.

I don't think he is part of the unit then, as soon as he chooses to leave the unit, he is a separate unit. Any kind of abilities that affect the unit, don't affect the IC anymore.

When does an IC leave an unit? When he moves out of coherency (2") with the unit. So you'd have to test before you have te option to leave the unit.

When does an IC JOIN a unit?

At the END of the phase, when in 2 inches of it. Otherwise he is a separate unit...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mannahnin wrote:Yup. Funny situation, but I agree with Chrysis and Kirsanth.

Oh sure, just like YOU to believe a kitten reading a book!

Augustus wrote:When does an IC JOIN a unit?

At the END of the phase, when in 2 inches of it. Otherwise he is a separate unit...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mannahnin wrote:Yup. Funny situation, but I agree with Chrysis and Kirsanth.

Oh sure, just like YOU to believe a kitten reading a book!

Unless he was already joined, yes, he joins at the end of the movement phase by moving within 2". But as pointed out, the IC's joining and leaving section indicates that if the IC is the only one in the unit that moved when he joined or left then the unit as a whole doesn't count as moving. Of course, if he started with the unit and he ended with the unit then he certainly would remove the marker when he runs around. But if he joins or leaves I don't think the rules support removing it if his movement is the only movement in the unit. Having said that I would still lean towards removing the marker if an IC leaves without anyone else moving because it feels more right, not because it actually is.

I think the key here is:

"If an Independent character moves and joins or leaves a unit that did not move, the character counts as having moved in the ensuing Shooting phase, but the unit does not."


While that could certainly be taken to apply only to how the unit is considered in the shooting phase, I personally think it sheds some light on this particular situation.

The IC rules also state that an IC doesn't join a unit until the end of the movement phase that he moves within 2" of them. Therefore, I think if he moves within 2" of a unit with a Deathspinner token his 'move' has ended *before* he joins the unit. And if the unit didn't move during the phase then they don't count as having moved per the rule I quoted above.

So in this case, neither the IC or the unit would take a dangerous terrain test and the token would remain.


Alternatively, the rules for an IC leaving a unit say:

"An Independent Character can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of coherency distance with it."

So unlike the rule for joining, this seems to happen immediately when the IC finishes moving out of coherency. Now, before I read the rule I quoted at the top I would have said that you wouldn't be able to move the IC without also 'moving the unit', because he is part of the unit and you'd have to 'activate' the unit in order to move him. But that rule I quoted above is making me second guess myself...because there's no way an IC can leave a unit 'that did not move' if activating the unit to move the character counts as moving them!


So after consideration, I think the IC could leave the unit with the Deathspinner token and he would have to take the Dangerous terrain test (as he is part of the unit until he completes his move) but if the unit doesn't also move at all, then they would NOT count as having moved and the token would stay.

I guess I'm saying the judge got it right in your case!

Melchiour wrote:As soon as the unit moves, the tokens are removed. So moving one model will trigger one dangerous test, yet make the unit count as moving, removing the counter.

I thought it was already established that the 'one model moves, the unit counts as moving' was only for shooting purposes.

If you claim that, then move a single model, that model takes the test, not every model in the unit. But then, as the unit has not moved, the token is not removed, and you go through it all again next turn.

NO, the unit HAS moved. If one model in the unit moves the entire unit has moved.