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So there's a guy at my local GW who loves the Night Spinner. As a result I've played a couple of games, and seen a couple of games played with it. Now have questions that really make me wonder how the strange aspect of this weapons rules act, namely the difficult and dangerous terrain aspect.

Question one: Does a tank hit by the Night Spinner take a test as though moving into terrain? I.E. can he hit my land raider so that on a roll of a one I immobilize myself and am essentially taken out of the game, despite S6 being unable to pierce my armor? Does the shot have to, at least, glance my armor to count as having hit my tank? Or is my vehicle not a unit?

Question two: My 30 strong ork Mob gets hit. In my movement phase I roll my difficult terrain test, but chose only to move one model an inch, taking one dangerous terrain test to avoid taking a crazy number of wounds. Is this in fulfillment of the rules?

These are good questions on the nightspinner, here is a shot at them...

1. The Doom Weaver rules for the Monofilament Web state you '...place a coin or suitable marker by any unit hit...' Unfortunately for you this means your LR would have to test for Difficult/Dangerous terrain.

2. Clever way to get around taking the tests. This would remove the token from the Nightspinner, just keep in mind he can keep shooting at that unit every turn and essentially lock it down for the game.

calypso2ts wrote:These are good questions on the nightspinner, here is a shot at them...

1. The Doom Weaver rules for the Monofilament Web state you '...place a coin or suitable marker by any unit hit...' Unfortunately for you this means your LR would have to test for Difficult/Dangerous terrain.

2. Clever way to get around taking the tests. This would remove the token from the Nightspinner, just keep in mind he can keep shooting at that unit every turn and essentially lock it down for the game.

Pretty much ^

For option 2... this might be exactly what he wants though. Keeping that one big unit stuck where it is.

dayve110 wrote:

calypso2ts wrote:These are good questions on the nightspinner, here is a shot at them...

1. The Doom Weaver rules for the Monofilament Web state you '...place a coin or suitable marker by any unit hit...' Unfortunately for you this means your LR would have to test for Difficult/Dangerous terrain.

2. Clever way to get around taking the tests. This would remove the token from the Nightspinner, just keep in mind he can keep shooting at that unit every turn and essentially lock it down for the game.

Pretty much ^

For option 2... this might be exactly what he wants though. Keeping that one big unit stuck where it is.

Not really that worried the tactical ramifications of the rules, just the rules themselves.

I find it completely ridiculous that a gun that can't hurt my tank in the first place can cause it to immobilize, but so be it. Thanks for the answers.

Space Wolves can do the same thing with a psychic power.

Affect units that it cannot wound, in fact the SW power even works against targets out of range.

Your number 2 doesn't work in the rules, as far as I've been able to find at any rate.

Remember even if you only move one model, the entire unit counts as having moved for that turn. And as you are still in dangerous terrain, you count as moving through dangerous terrain.

Lone Dragoon is right, you can't get out of the dangerous terrain test by only moving one model for the reason he stated.

The secondary effect of the Night spinner's weapon is basically the only reason to take it.

Elnicko5 wrote:I find it completely ridiculous that a gun that can't hurt my tank in the first place can cause it to immobilize, but so be it. Thanks for the answers.

Well it can, it's S6 and rending... meaning if it rolls a 6 to pen, it gets another D3, for a maximum total of 15.
Plus its firing stringy webby stuff that constricts the more you oppose it... get that on your treads and it'll shear right through.

Lone Dragoon wrote:Your number 2 doesn't work in the rules, as far as I've been able to find at any rate.

Remember even if you only move one model, the entire unit counts as having moved for that turn. And as you are still in dangerous terrain, you count as moving through dangerous terrain.

If one model moves, then the entire unit counts as moving for the purposes of firing. The dangerous terrain test rules apply only to models that actually move.

So rolling the difficult terrain test, moving one single orc, and only rolling the dangerous terrain test for that single orc is correct according to the rules.

This is the same situation if half a unit moved through dangerous terrain. Only the half that actually go through terrain need to take the dangerous terrain test.

Yup. As noted, if ANY model wants to move through DIFFICULT terrain, the whole unit has to test. But DANGEROUS terrain tests only apply to the individual models which actually move into/through Dangerous Terrain.

Now let's see if someone can clear this up for me, so I can see where I was wrong on it.

Page 14 says-

If you take the difficult terrain test you are never compelled to move the models, as you may not have rolled high enough to make it worth moving at all. However, if you roll the dice, the unit is still considered to have moved for purposes of shooting.

Alright, clear on that part since it says only for purposes of shooting.

Again on page 14-

Roll a D6 for every model that has entered, left, or moved through one or more areas of dangerous terrain during it's move.

Again, any modelthat moves gets a dangerous terrain test.

My wrench in the monkey works question comes in here however. It's in a different section of the book, but the way the wording is put it seems to still be pertinent to the rules quandry we have.

On page 17 in the Moving & Shooting box

The most imporant thing to remember is that the whole unit counts as moving if any of its models moved in the movement phase.

Now if something counts as moving, even if in reality it hasn't moved at all, wouldn't that mean that trigger the dangerous terrain test for every model as the entire unit counts as moving?

No, because the rules for Dangerous Terrain are more specific, and tell you that you only roll for the individual models.

I was always under the assumption that the unit was comprised of each individual model in it, and when it says the unit counts as moving I understood it to mean each model in the unit counted as moving. That's where my confusion lies I suppose, and that's where I was under the belief that when one model moves, each individual model in the unit moves (or counts as moving as the case may be) despite standing still.

Lone Dragoon wrote:I was always under the assumption that the unit was comprised of each individual model in it, and when it says the unit counts as moving I understood it to mean each model in the unit counted as moving. That's where my confusion lies I suppose, and that's where I was under the belief that when one model moves, each individual model in the unit moves (or counts as moving as the case may be) despite standing still.

The whole unit does count as moving. the catch here is that the dangerous terrain section provides more specific rules which override normal rules. The more specific is only models that move through into or out of the dangerous terrain must test.

Lone Dragoon wrote:I was always under the assumption that the unit was comprised of each individual model in it, and when it says the unit counts as moving I understood it to mean each model in the unit counted as moving.

Which they do... for the purposes of working out the unit's shooting.

For what its worth, I agree with Lone Dragoon.

"only models that move through into or out of the dangerous terrain must test". Yes, and the whole unit count as moving if one do so, so they all count as moving through it and test. (as page 17 BRB say "The most imporant thing to remember is that the whole unit counts as moving if any of its models moved in the movement phase", as pointed out by Lone Dragoon)
The specifics, as I see it is if half a unit streatch outside the dangerous area (not possible in the nightspinner situation).

However, Ive been posting all kinds of half thought through stuff lately. I need to sleep and read the rules again.

Fayric wrote:For what its worth, I agree with Lone Dragoon.

"only models that move through into or out of the dangerous terrain must test". Yes, and the whole unit count as moving if one do so, so they all count as moving through it and test. (as page 17 BRB say "The most imporant thing to remember is that the whole unit counts as moving if any of its models moved in the movement phase", as pointed out by Lone Dragoon)
The specifics, as I see it is if half a unit streatch outside the dangerous area (not possible in the nightspinner situation).

However, Ive been posting all kinds of half thought through stuff lately. I need to sleep and read the rules again.

The whole unit counts as moving, but nothing states the whole unit counts as moving through dangerous terrain. Also if that were the case then the dangerous terrain section that states only models that move into through or out of dangerous terrain would not be needed.

first :

yes the possible penetration of the doomweaver is 15 so yes it can hurt your landraider. Difficult terrain can hurt your land raider anyway regardless of the source even if it is a piece of wood. or a nice lake difficult terrain is still difficult terrain.

second :
the special rules for the doomweaver is "The Unit(s) hit" so even if you only touch one guy the whole unit takes it for difficult/dangerous terrain because the "unit" gets the token not the models hit. so moving a single model other wise under the rules still makes the whole unit take the test specific rule > general rule.

You are right, the SPECIFIC rule is that dangerous terrain tests are taken on a by MODEL basis. Ergo, only the models that ACTUALLY moved need to take the test.

Take a unit of a 100 models and place all of the models in difficult and dangerous terrain, such as lava.

Select the unit for movement, roll difficult terrain, move one of those models, and then declare that you're done moving the unit. (See page 11 of the rulebook.) Note that the unit has moved, and only one model in the unit has moved.

The dangerous terrain test rules specify that you roll one dice for each model that has moved into, out of, or through dangerous terrain. (See page 14 of the rulebook.) As a result, you make one dangerous terrain test for the single model that you just moved and you're done.

Note also that page 14 says "If you take the difficult terrain test, you are never compelled to move the models..." That means that it's entirely valid for a difficult terrain test to be rolled and one model to move, disrupting the entire unit's shooting but still not causing any other model in the unit to have moved.

In short: One model moving in lava does not cause 99 stationary models to take dangerous terrain tests.

Conveniently, this is the exact same scenario that the Night Spinner effect puts the unit when it moves--difficult and dangerous terrain.

That's stupid awesome. I can't figure out why on earth I didn't realize that one sooner.

Lol what about this, I play eldar and I love the night spinner, if I shoot a skimmer, it has to take a dang. Test for moving and because it counts as difficult/dangerous terrain for the movement phase it needs to take another to stop as skimmers need to take it to stop over difficult terrain

huge_eldar wrote:Lol what about this, I play eldar and I love the night spinner, if I shoot a skimmer, it has to take a dang. Test for moving and because it counts as difficult/dangerous terrain for the movement phase it needs to take another to stop as skimmers need to take it to stop over difficult terrain

Would depend on what exactly the rule says for how a unit or vehicle looses the dangerous terrain marker. Does it say as soon as the unit moves or something else?

I believe it says "remove this marker after the affected unit has moved."

Ive had this problem before. My opponent wanted a skimmer to test twice (once for moving out of Dang/ once for landing in Dang)
Dont have my RB handy, but theres a rule that says a model only tests once.

Here's another angle, in a game I recently played this happened:

Spinner fired and hit a unit with an IC.

IC left unit, no other models in unit moved next move phase.

Does the IC roll the diff and dangerous or not?

IC is part of the unit until after it moves (out of coherency), as I read it.

Augustus wrote:Here's another angle, in a game I recently played this happened:

Spinner fired and hit a unit with an IC.

IC left unit, no other models in unit moved next move phase.

Does the IC roll the diff and dangerous or not?

Yes he would. He was part of the unit that got hit; therefore the web is over him as well, so even tho he breaks off, he should still test.
Im sure that's the RAI tho....
You may have found a RAW grey area!

Well the entry says after the movement, remove the marker.. I.e. The whole movement is in difficult/dang terrain so when a skimmer stops in terrain, it must make a check..

Dang.... wish I had da rulez handy.
Yes; it would have to make a Dang terrain check. For either leaving or ending movement in Dang terrain.
However; It would only have to make 1.