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asmith wrote:Ghost studios was the manufacturer for both companies. To early to tell, but the two announcements might be related.

I am making this up, but maybe a chinese molding company wants to get directly involved in selling minis?

Interesting...

Anyway if people are wondering what the minis look like I have some up here;
http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/images-518-7012_Ex%20Illis.html

Most were meh but some like the angel knight ware pretty good.

The new guy in charge at wargames factory is an employee of the chinese company. It would be interesting to know if they also got control of bastion as well. We know they have control of all the molds for both companies anyway.

Hello dakka,

I'm one of the forumites over at the Ex illis forums. No- no- no need for violence now. I'm not here to preach. While I personally thought the game had a lot of potential, I was always concerned about the bugginess of the software, the marketing hype, and the fans' seeming inability to recognize the flaws with their beloved game.

That said, I am still hugely disappointed about this game's demise. It was the first wargame that my wife would even touch, and because of the hundreds of dollars of plastic that will soon be completely obsolete it will probably be her last. What concerns me here is that this game made a valiant (though misguided) attempt to bring non gamers and fringe gamers into the fold, and it did so more than most would have guessed, but now for all those first time gamers, their first experience will be one of regret.

There were many misunderstandings about the game, and when I first read the goings on over the "leaked" base here, I went back to their forums with the desire to temper their enthusiasm. Needless to say I ended up on several people's ignore lists. It seemed that the staff were fast to respond when I asked them questions about trading, selling, or even glitches. (turns out that you can/could sell miniatures, just by asking to have them transferred). It was this communication and service which convinced me to buy the game. I saw its potential, and its flaws and made a bet that it could improve fast enough. Obviously, I was wrong. Since having joined the ranks of Ex illis players, I have developed a sour taste in my mouth. I had applied for "Bleeding Edge Knight" status, and it's been months since I've heard a thing, and now after just having been told that "all's well" after the whole staff went silent for the entire end of December, we get this news? I feel as if I've been lied to.

The feeling that Bastion was trying to be deceptive seems to be a feeling that is shared by many, though most will insist that they saw through such lies to begin with. The DRM issue was a phantom, and any game could be coded to be played as a video game, but the obviously overblown claims of "Wargaming 2.0" and "Realistic Fantasy" turned a lot of people off. Frankly, the idea was a good one, but the company and it's fans have shot themselves in the foot. I purchased it because I wanted to get back into painting/modeling, and play a game which played quickly(It helped that my wife seemed to love it). Not only that, but this was the first system to capture my imagination since I entered the hobby in 2001. Really, don't let me fool you. I was absolutely in love with the potential that this game held, but that potential will never be realized. The minis, no matter how "historically accurate" they were, never looked "cool" or "interesting" and the rules and game software never seemed polished enough to leave beta. Now it seems it will be stuck this way forever.

I wish that more people had given the game a chance, sure, but I understand why many didn't. I very nearly ignored it as being simply an overpriced flash game. If I understand the email I've received from the game's designer, it will live on as a community supported game with assistance from the original design team (reminds me of what's going on with Decipher's Star Wars CCG) even if the game dies as a commercial venture. Of course this proves what we all know. Since they won't be selling plastic anymore, it will basically just be a video game.

Anyway, That's my first post on these forums. Maybe I'll pick up something else, but not likely. I'll probably just stick to playing board games instead.

groundedcontrol wrote:Hello dakka,

I'm one of the forumites over at the Ex illis forums. No- no- no need for violence now. I'm not here to preach. While I personally thought the game had a lot of potential, I was always concerned about the bugginess of the software, the marketing hype, and the fans' seeming inability to recognize the flaws with their beloved game........

very well said. i'm sorry that it appears the game you enjoy is now joining the ranks of the defunct as i don't generally wish that on any gamer in our small community. also, thank you for proving what i thought was impossible... that not all ex illis players are rabid lemmings.

Buzzsaw wrote:While some people oddly seem happy about this, this would seem to be just another bad sign in a season of bad signs for the hobby as a whole.

To be honest, I don't see a few small companies going belly up as particularly indicative of the state of the hobby as a whole. Small wargaming or miniatures companies are popping up constantly... while others are burning out. Most small businesses, not just the hobby-related ones, don't last more than a few years.

I would suspect that would be becoming even more evident with the growth of internet-based industry... it's becoming steadily easier to launch a business in whatever strikes your fancy, without any real need to actually learn a great deal about actually running a business first... which, unfortunately, generally leads to failure. From what I've seen over the years, an awful lot of hobby-related businesses are started by hobbyists who have an idea, but not necessarily a lot of business-savvy.

While WF is doing strange things, and Ex-Illis never really got started, Privateer is still plowing along despite all the knocks, small miniature manufacturers are popping up faster than you can say 'Sculpt me something with boobs!', print-on-demand services and sites like Kickstarter are making it easier all the time for that guy with the idea to get it out there for the public to enjoy... or not, and the slowly growing public perception of wargaming (fueled admittedly in large part by the growth of GW) means fewer strange looks from Joe Notawargamer when you try to explain to him just what it is you do with your spare time.

To my mind, times have never been better for the hobby.

insaniak:

To be fair, Privateer Press didn't start under the auspices of our
current economy. They had a customer base before things
went south. However, I suppose one could argue that they
were able to relaunch their game in the midst of this recession,
which is kind of a scary prospect.

At Gencon the year they launched Ex-Illis, if I recall correctly,
the swag bag was positively sparse. I know that's more of an
anecdotal thing, but to me it seemed as if there weren't
going to be many new lures for my gamer dollars. Maybe I'm
wrong, but it was the impression that I got.

insaniak wrote:...means fewer strange looks from Joe Notawargamer when you try to explain to him just what it is you do with your spare time.

Unless you live where we live insaniak.

This southern land is a strange place...

Exillis... something i could live without.

*feels no difference*

groundedcontrol wrote:The minis, no matter how "historically accurate" they were, never looked "cool" or "interesting"

This was always my view of it. The miniatures showed sculpting proficiency, but had no character. Perhaps the in-house paintjobs were also to blame at least in part.

@groundcontrol

Well said, and I am sorry for the loss of your favorite wargame.

I LOVED warzone, even with some of its crappy minis, and was really bummed when they went belly-up so I know your pain.

@Inasaniak

I totally agree. The hobby is better now than ever. Companies come and go, but the big games with the best minis (IMO) are constantly improving and expanding.

@Thread
Ex Illis just seemed kind of lame to me. I feel bad that those who went into it lost their investment, but that is the risk of business. As Insaniak said, MOST businesses fail. It happens every day.

The game's minis did nothing for me and most of them looked pretty cheap. I have NO desire to play without dice or tape measures or whatever. Why would I? I LIKE analog gaming. I LIKE throwing dice. I LIKE using a tape measure. If I wanted to play a video game, I would. I don't. I like hanging out with my friends and playing a game with real minis on real terrain.

So I am not surprised that this didn't work at all and honestly, am not upset. Stinks for the fans and those who risked their time and money on the venture, but maybe next go-around they'll do it better and have a successful game.

Eh, shame. Cool minis, decent backstory.

I'll admit what killed them though was the whole computer thing. Not so much implementing it, but the fact that you had to pay some sort of monthly fee was just the killer. I mean, most people were thrown off by the computer thing already, paying for it was just putting the nail in the coffin. Though I hate to kind of rub it in though, at least they tried to come up with a new system of wargaming...

Still, I'll see if people are having clearance sales on the minis, or that modular gameboard. Some good looking stuff, to say the least.

@groundedcontrol: Well said, and sorry to hear the prediciment you're in.

It's a real shame they went under; especially since they were brave enough to try something new - though that 'new' was something that I also couldn't get on board with.

You had to pay a monthly fee???!?!?!

Wow, what a bad idea.

Wow.

Wargaming is expensive enough, and you take overpriced minis that are of less quality and then try and charge a monthly fee on top of requiring a computer/iPad? The target demographic here is not a wealthy group.

What an incredibly bad idea.

To be honest, their initial idea of using all the mobile computing to enhance wargaming isn't a bad one.

Just recently Fantasy Flight Games released a helper app for their Arkham Horror boardgame.

In concept, it's not a bad idea. However, their execution of it was instead of making a good miniatures game at its core, then making the app a fun and interesting extension of the game, they made it into a required component that took some choice, or "gameplay", out of the game.

insaniak wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote:While some people oddly seem happy about this, this would seem to be just another bad sign in a season of bad signs for the hobby as a whole.

To be honest, I don't see a few small companies going belly up as particularly indicative of the state of the hobby as a whole. Small wargaming or miniatures companies are popping up constantly... while others are burning out. Most small businesses, not just the hobby-related ones, don't last more than a few years.

I would suspect that would be becoming even more evident with the growth of internet-based industry... it's becoming steadily easier to launch a business in whatever strikes your fancy, without any real need to actually learn a great deal about actually running a business first... which, unfortunately, generally leads to failure. From what I've seen over the years, an awful lot of hobby-related businesses are started by hobbyists who have an idea, but not necessarily a lot of business-savvy.

While WF is doing strange things, and Ex-Illis never really got started, Privateer is still plowing along despite all the knocks, small miniature manufacturers are popping up faster than you can say 'Sculpt me something with boobs!', print-on-demand services and sites like Kickstarter are making it easier all the time for that guy with the idea to get it out there for the public to enjoy... or not, and the slowly growing public perception of wargaming (fueled admittedly in large part by the growth of GW) means fewer strange looks from Joe Notawargamer when you try to explain to him just what it is you do with your spare time.

To my mind, times have never been better for the hobby.

I think that a lot of start ups immediately want the success of GW and PP and act like they are larger than they are or can possibly sustain themselves to be.

Like you say hobbyists wanting to get into the biz but not having any real stucture, and heres the thing, no back up to tell them to slow up.

I have no idea how long the Ex-illis guys were gestating their idea but it wasn't long enough and I suspect that they had no savvy experts asking them to back up their ideas.

Buzzsaw wrote:While some people oddly seem happy about this, this would seem to be just another bad sign in a season of bad signs for the hobby as a whole.

I don't think anyone's happy, per se. The closest to happy is "satisfaction"; in as critics who saw a bad core design see that feeling borne out by events. Rightfully so, might I add.

A game that's intrinsically flawed in concept coming swiftly to it's inexorable conclusion is not a bad sign for the hobby as a whole, it's simply how capitalism works.

Vertrucio wrote:To be honest, their initial idea of using all the mobile computing to enhance wargaming isn't a bad one.

Just recently Fantasy Flight Games released a helper app for their Arkham Horror boardgame.

In concept, it's not a bad idea. However, their execution of it was instead of making a good miniatures game at its core, then making the app a fun and interesting extension of the game, they made it into a required component that took some choice, or "gameplay", out of the game.

Exactly. The problem with Ex-Illis is not that it's computer-assisted gaming, it's that they let the computer assistance limit the game, instead of the other way around. Maybe someday I'll have the opportunity to put my ideas about computer assisted gaming done right into practice, or maybe someone will beat me to it, but Ex-Illis was not it.

groundedcontrol wrote:Anyway, That's my first post on these forums. Maybe I'll pick up something else, but not likely. I'll probably just stick to playing board games instead.

There are other great tabletop games. You could let this be your wargaming epitaph, and it's understandable, but it also could be how you learned about some of the other great games that are out.

Are the minis on discount from anyone yet?

I'd like a couple of those preacher guys for conversions for my guard, as well.

Reecius wrote:You had to pay a monthly fee???!?!?!

Wow, what a bad idea.

Wow.

Wargaming is expensive enough, and you take overpriced minis that are of less quality and then try and charge a monthly fee on top of requiring a computer/iPad? The target demographic here is not a wealthy group.

What an incredibly bad idea.

I don't believe that's correct. That software is/was completely free, and I never remember that changing. You needed to register your purchased miniatures of course, but that was it.

groundedcontrol wrote:It was the first wargame that my wife would even touch

That piques my curiousity. Any particular reason why?

Interesting concept, poor execution and poor miniatures

Can't see why people are crying doom for the miniature world because of this

@Neconilis

Ah, OK. Yeah a monthly fee would be incredibly bad. That makes the barrier to entry that much higher. It is already a daunting task to get into wargaming.

insaniak wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote:While some people oddly seem happy about this, this would seem to be just another bad sign in a season of bad signs for the hobby as a whole.

To be honest, I don't see a few small companies going belly up as particularly indicative of the state of the hobby as a whole. Small wargaming or miniatures companies are popping up constantly... while others are burning out. Most small businesses, not just the hobby-related ones, don't last more than a few years.

I would suspect that would be becoming even more evident with the growth of internet-based industry... it's becoming steadily easier to launch a business in whatever strikes your fancy, without any real need to actually learn a great deal about actually running a business first... which, unfortunately, generally leads to failure. From what I've seen over the years, an awful lot of hobby-related businesses are started by hobbyists who have an idea, but not necessarily a lot of business-savvy.

While WF is doing strange things, and Ex-Illis never really got started, Privateer is still plowing along despite all the knocks, small miniature manufacturers are popping up faster than you can say 'Sculpt me something with boobs!', print-on-demand services and sites like Kickstarter are making it easier all the time for that guy with the idea to get it out there for the public to enjoy... or not, and the slowly growing public perception of wargaming (fueled admittedly in large part by the growth of GW) means fewer strange looks from Joe Notawargamer when you try to explain to him just what it is you do with your spare time.

To my mind, times have never been better for the hobby.

I'm genuinely curious, what prompts you to remark that "times have never been better for the hobby"?

I should also clarify: when I said "a season of bad signs for the hobby as a whole", I'm not primarily referencing the closing of several smaller companies. Rather I'm referencing what I have been led to believe by various posters regarding GW's sales volume being flat or even in slight decline of the long term.

Beyond that, while many people have correctly pointed out the shortcomings of Ex-Illis from their perspective, I think it's worth pointing out the capacity of a healthy market to support niche players. By way of somewhat silly example, consider the market for candy bars: though I personally dislike coconut, I can think of 3 candy bars involving coconut on the market today off the top of my head (Mounds, Almost Joy and Zagnut).

Now, while that may seem a facile comparison, I'm trying to point out that in a healthy market, like candy bars (no pun intended), especially a market served by the internet, the existence of niche tastes, and the ability of these niche manufacturers to find receptive consumers, can be indicative of overall health. I can go online, or to a place like the wonderful Economy Candy and get crazy stuff like a Sky Bar, French Chew or a Zero Bar.

Now, like I said, that's a facile analogy (and totally not one I used because I wanted to work "Zagnut" into a post); but there is a significant difference between companies failing because they cannot find an audience, and companies failing because the marketplace they are entering into is undergoing contraction. As I should have made clearer in my first post, my impression is that (separate and in addition to Ex-Illis' failings whatever they may be) the marketplace itself is suffering. This, of course, is not based on some intimate knowledge of market numbers, and it's quite possible I have been led astray by certain posts and the overall feeling of hostility towards GW at my own FLGS. I welcome any contrary information.

Edit: Mounds, obviously, not Mars...

Miniature gaming is a niche marked from the start, and it does support many niche-games.

Chocolate is a bad analogy because women need it to live, but even in the chocolate marked, if I tried to launch a wet-dog-flavored chocolate bar, it would probably (hopefully) flop

Buzzsaw wrote:As I should have made clearer in my first post, my impression is that (separate and in addition to Ex-Illis' failings whatever they may be) the marketplace itself is suffering. This, of course, is not based on some intimate knowledge of market numbers, and it's quite possible I have been led astray by certain posts and the overall feeling of hostility towards GW at my own FLGS. I welcome any contrary information.

It kinda sounds here like you equate the wargaming market with GW. You do know people aren't required to have a GW army before they move on to something else, right?

Buzzsaw wrote:I'm genuinely curious, what prompts you to remark that "times have never been better for the hobby"?

The things I mentioned in the preceding paragraph, for starters.

GW's sales being a little flat, or people being grumpy with them, are not at all indicative of the health of the hobby market. GW has been having flat sales periods, and people have been complaining about their behaviour, for decades.


There's a difference between something failing because the market can't support niche players, and something failing because it's just not particularly attractive to potential buyers.

Coconut chocolate bars sell regardless of your personal liking of them because enough other people like coconut to support their sales. That doesn't automatically mean that a chocolate bar of some other flavour won't fail... and that failing won't in itself be indicative of the overall health of the chocolate bar market. It would quite possibly just be because people didn't want to buy that particular flavour.

I don't feel any kind of schadenfreude for their failing, but this really comes as no surprise at all. Nor do I feel like it's a pity we're losing them simply because they tried something different. They really looked to me like a company that was neither giving themselves good criticism internally nor taking to heart external criticism. If you want to try something different, you need to hold yourself to a high standard to make sure you aren't deluding yourself about what you're working on.

I do feel sorry for people who bought into the game though.

@groundedcontrol
Well, you can use your minis (at least some of them) with Kings of War, a system that`s quite open to minis from other companies and the rules are free, so no risk for you there.

@business
To many companies competing in such times as these and some with ideas that might work for online games but not TT is definitely not a sign of the TT hobby being in distress, but of too many people not having a micron of business experience.

asmith wrote:Ghost studios was the manufacturer for both companies. To early to tell, but the two announcements might be related.

I am making this up, but maybe a chinese molding company wants to get directly involved in selling minis?

I suspect they are. Not because of any conspiracy, but because if you make a massive number of minis in China and they don't sell, then you've got them in your warehouse and nothing in your bank account to pay the manufacturer. If you make the minis yourself, or locally, then if the game doesn't sell you can just stop making them and not have a massive debt hanging round your neck.