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No, because we're using the unaugmented strength of the WEAPON, which for a powerfist is 2 x users ST. Since the +1 for Furious Charge is added AFTER determining the strength of the PF, it's a modifier. The doubling of strength is not a modifier, it's the formula used to determine the unaugmented strength of the PF. See the difference?

If you can disprove that the BRB on page 7 actually says that 2x ST from a powerfist is a modifier, sure. Otherwise, you're just wrong.

But it's a modifier to the model's strength rather than the weapon's strength.

Regardless of when in the process you add it into the mix to find the strength of the attack, it modifies the unit rather than the weapon, thus it isn't forbidden by the Living Metal rule.

@Jidmah You need to READ the rule...

Living Metal:
"Attacks which count the TARGET'S ARMOUR VALUE as being less than it really is (such as bright lances and blasters) do not do so against the Monolith. Similarly, weapons that get ADDITIONAL ARMOUR PENETRATION DICE (such as chianfists, monstrous creatures, or melta weapons) do not get the extra dice against the Monolith. Ordanance weapons still roll 2D6 for Armour Penetration and select the highest score."

No where does it say it ignores modifiers of any kind.

Also the FAQ entry is a specific clarification that the above rule does not apply to powerfists. This is fairly clear from the rule itself, but apparently was asked enough to warrant entry in the FAQ.


To summarize, the only thing effected by living metal are the following:
Lances and any other armor modification abilities
Melta, Chainfists, and other abilities that give you an attack of Strength + 2D6 instead of Strength + 1D6


Since a powerfist augments the wearers strength, it is not adding a die. The attack is still Strength + 1D6.

Huh? I was merely answering to don_mondo claiming that Furious Charge is a modifier and Powerfists are not.

I was in agreement with you.

I grabbed the wrong name when I was referencing the post. My bad. It was aimed at don_mondo when he said that furious charge didn't work vs monoliths :3

WanderingFox wrote:@Jidmah You need to READ the rule...

Living Metal:
"Attacks which count the TARGET'S ARMOUR VALUE as being less than it really is (such as bright lances and blasters) do not do so against the Monolith. Similarly, weapons that get ADDITIONAL ARMOUR PENETRATION DICE (such as chianfists, monstrous creatures, or melta weapons) do not get the extra dice against the Monolith. Ordanance weapons still roll 2D6 for Armour Penetration and select the highest score."

No where does it say it ignores modifiers of any kind.

Also the FAQ entry is a specific clarification that the above rule does not apply to powerfists. This is fairly clear from the rule itself, but apparently was asked enough to warrant entry in the FAQ.


To summarize, the only thing effected by living metal are the following:
Lances and any other armor modification abilities
Melta, Chainfists, and other abilities that give you an attack of Strength + 2D6 instead of Strength + 1D6


Since a powerfist augments the wearers strength, it is not adding a die. The attack is still Strength + 1D6.

Well...you ARE forgetting the whole bit in the living metal rule that says (paraphrased) "In practice, when attacking a monolith a weapon rolls it's unaugmented Strength+1d6 no matter what."

Now, as has been said, the rule does say WEAPON and not MODEL. So yes, Furious charge works, power fists work, and so on. Tank hunter does not work though, as a "for instance".

umm no i'm not. that is the entirety of the living rule minus the single line of fluff.

See attached. It says NOTHING of the sort.

Assuming that they didn't just allow powerfists as a specific exception, to shut whiny SM players up..

That and the fact that Orks had practically no other way to kill the thing.

I'm not fussed personally. I'm ok with FC and so on without argument, as the Lith is a pain to take down without it, and also so that my Orks get the same benefit if i ever run across another Necron player.

In any case I prefer to play the game than have heated RAW arguments eating into my gaming time. The heated RAW arguments are over beer, afterwards

It'll all be irrelevant soon, in any case, with a bit of luck

God I can only hope so. I hate having these fights every time I put my 'crons on the table

Before people start killing each other over this again: Which of the two printings is the current one? The one Fox posted?

Does the codex say 'no matter what'?

If it does it's the current one.

I was unaware of multiple printings of the codex? Mine is the one that was released in 2002 :/

That and the fact that Orks had practically no other way to kill the thing.

Really? I'd say that outside of IG massed S 10 weapons, the thing that scares my Liths the most are Deffrolla's. Sure I can dodge it on a 3+ but if I dont, thats D6 S 10 hits. In 1 turn your Deffrolla has the potential to hit a lith as much as a Leman Russ can for the entire game.

As far as the rest goes, agreed with Kevin. The way the rules are worded, FC is a boost to the models Strength value and not the weapons.

WanderingFox wrote:I was unaware of multiple printings of the codex? Mine is the one that was released in 2002 :/

Yup, it looks like you've got the old one. GW did an update on the Necron codex years ago. They changed several rules (I don't remember the full list), but didn't really go out of their way to inform people that the old codex wasn't up to date.

It has the exact same cover, but the new one says 2nd Printing somewhere on the inside. This has caused more confusion and arguments than I care to think about.

So it would seem

Thank god I only have one major game planed for my crons before October.

your codex is the old one as mine has the 'no matter what' sentence.

I've read the entire discussion and it seems the problem isn't solved...

I've read the FAQ now and it seems my question is answered there also the monolith is the monolith no matter if you have STR8 its only a 6 glance :p

Apparently I do. I apologize Like I said above, I was completely unaware a second printing of the codex came out since my codex is from an older player who no longer plays and I started only fairly recently :3

Lehnsherr wrote:

That and the fact that Orks had practically no other way to kill the thing.

Really? I'd say that outside of IG massed S 10 weapons, the thing that scares my Liths the most are Deffrolla's. Sure I can dodge it on a 3+ but if I dont, thats D6 S 10 hits. In 1 turn your Deffrolla has the potential to hit a lith as much as a Leman Russ can for the entire game.

As far as the rest goes, agreed with Kevin. The way the rules are worded, FC is a boost to the models Strength value and not the weapons.

Deffrollas didn't exist when the Lith was released, at least as far as i remember from the previous codex PK's were your AT.


I said had, not have. These days they have ways, but not back in 3rd ED.

I said had, not have. These days they have ways, but not back in 3rd ED

Ah, sorry for misreading your post then.

Yep, Fox has wandered far astray by quoting from the old codex. The current printing has this line in it:

"In practice, any WEAPON attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its UNAUGMENTED STRENGTH and a SINGLE D6 no matter what." Emphasis mine, obviously.

Breaking that down into a mathematical formula, you get A (unagmented st of weapon) plus B (single d6) = C (armour penetration). there are no allowances for anything to be added to the formula, all you ever get is A + B.

Now, which part of the formula, A or B, does the +1 from Furious Charge go into? Neither, which means you don't get it. it's really that simple.

And Fox, there are some other changes too, that you should be aware of if you intend to use 'Crons.
1. They no longer count as disembarking from a stationary vehicle if the Monolith has moved.
2. If the unit moved, they cannot be teleported at all.

Good to know. Thanks. God, I can't wait till the new codex :3

don_mondo wrote:
2. If the unit moved, they cannot be teleported at all.

Yes they can, they just can't move beyond disembarking. Per the FAQ.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

don_mondo wrote:
2. If the unit moved, they cannot be teleported at all.

Yes they can, they just can't move beyond disembarking. Per the FAQ.

Correct, the FAQ is:

Q. Can a Necron unit that teleports through a
Monolith’s portal move after emerging?
A. Only if the Monolith (and the teleporting unit)
hasn’t already moved that Movement phase. If the
unit has already moved before being teleported,
it may only be deployed within 2" of the portal; if
it hasn’t already moved, it may deploy out 2" and
then move normally.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

don_mondo wrote:
2. If the unit moved, they cannot be teleported at all.

Yes they can, they just can't move beyond disembarking. Per the FAQ.

No, they cannot. Last line of the 2nd printing Monolith entry:

"A unit phasing out to re-emerge from the portal MAY NOT MOVE BEFORE PHASING OUT."

And that FAQ (old, btw) does not grant an exception for a unit to move prior to teleporting. It merely states what used to happen if a unit moved before teleporting.

The FAQ specifically calls out what to do if the unit has moved prior to being ported through the Monolith. It doesn't qualify the move type just that if the unit has moved....

TheGreatAvatar wrote:The FAQ specifically calls out what to do if the unit has moved prior to being ported through the Monolith. It doesn't qualify the move type just that if the unit has moved....

Exactly. If they have moved. Which the Monolith rules specifically prohibit them from doing. I really don't see any way to say they can move prior to porting, given the rule I quoted.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:The FAQ specifically calls out what to do if the unit has moved prior to being ported through the Monolith. It doesn't qualify the move type just that if the unit has moved....

But after re-reading the FAQ, don is correct. The rule in the codex that a unit cannot move before phasing out is what must be used.
That's because the first sentence of the last Necron FAQ said;

Some of the information in this document has
already been incorporated in later editions of the
Necron Codex. We have decided to leave them
here for people that might own an older version
of the Codex. If you are using a more recent
edition, please ignore any redundant information.

So we would ignore the FAQ I quoted, and instead use the rule from the codex that a unit cannot move before phasing out.

time wizard wrote:

TheGreatAvatar wrote:The FAQ specifically calls out what to do if the unit has moved prior to being ported through the Monolith. It doesn't qualify the move type just that if the unit has moved....

But after re-reading the FAQ, don is correct. The rule in the codex that a unit cannot move before phasing out is what must be used.
That's because the first sentence of the last Necron FAQ said;

Some of the information in this document has
already been incorporated in later editions of the
Necron Codex. We have decided to leave them
here for people that might own an older version
of the Codex. If you are using a more recent
edition, please ignore any redundant information.

So we would ignore the FAQ I quoted, and instead use the rule from the codex that a unit cannot move before phasing out.

That still doesn't make sense because the rule in the later edition codex (second printing) is still vastly different from the rule in the FAQ. That would lead me to believe that the FAQ is still the most up to date ruling on this particular subject simply because they don't match up at all and, going by the date stamp on the FAQ, it is the newest release. I believe some of the redundant information may be something like "Do wraiths need to take dangerous terrain tests?" or the question about firing the gauss flux arc into close combat.

The FAQ has a later release date than the second printing of the Necron codex.