Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

MadMaverick76 wrote:

Yuber wrote:

MadMaverick76 wrote:

Yuber wrote:

MadMaverick76 wrote:Wolf Lord is not a necessity, also generally to arm a Wolf Lord properly he ends up running as much as the TWC squad is to begin with. I have never run a Lord with my TWC, then again I never play over 1500 pts really.

Wolf lords are a necessity. They are the ones doing the actual killing.

You need Ld 10, and TWC are just ablative wounds for him. Never give more than 1 SS to a TWC Squad.

I would disagree. Wolf Lords on a TWC is just not worth the points in lower games, maybe higher. Also considering TWC do quite well in CC, the only time their LD comes into cause is when they lose two Wolves (with 5 TWC). But I must say I run a Rhino wall SW list, so my TWC get into CC pretty much unscathed, and tend to do a lot of damage, enough to force LD tests on my opponent.

I find this hard to believe. How small are your TWC figs? Your rhinos shouldnt be able to total LOS block them. Or, your opponents aren't that smart. TWC is usually the first thing that gets shot at.

I use the mythicast TWC, also I play mostly against gunline armies (IG, Tau). My list set-up is meant to cause target prioritization issues. With Landspeeders running my opponents flanks, most of the time fire is directed towards them first. I also use any terrain to my advantage. So my Rhinos may not always completely block LOS, but a clever usage of Rhinos and terrain has definitely denied LOS a few times, and any shots that get through have cover to deal with. If your TWC are being shot, then I would say the *player* (Whomever that may be ) is not that smart.

If you're saying that speeders pose more threat than the TWC, I dont wanna engage in this argument anymore.

Yuber wrote:

MadMaverick76 wrote:

Yuber wrote:

MadMaverick76 wrote:

Yuber wrote:

MadMaverick76 wrote:Wolf Lord is not a necessity, also generally to arm a Wolf Lord properly he ends up running as much as the TWC squad is to begin with. I have never run a Lord with my TWC, then again I never play over 1500 pts really.

Wolf lords are a necessity. They are the ones doing the actual killing.

You need Ld 10, and TWC are just ablative wounds for him. Never give more than 1 SS to a TWC Squad.

I would disagree. Wolf Lords on a TWC is just not worth the points in lower games, maybe higher. Also considering TWC do quite well in CC, the only time their LD comes into cause is when they lose two Wolves (with 5 TWC). But I must say I run a Rhino wall SW list, so my TWC get into CC pretty much unscathed, and tend to do a lot of damage, enough to force LD tests on my opponent.

I find this hard to believe. How small are your TWC figs? Your rhinos shouldnt be able to total LOS block them. Or, your opponents aren't that smart. TWC is usually the first thing that gets shot at.

I use the mythicast TWC, also I play mostly against gunline armies (IG, Tau). My list set-up is meant to cause target prioritization issues. With Landspeeders running my opponents flanks, most of the time fire is directed towards them first. I also use any terrain to my advantage. So my Rhinos may not always completely block LOS, but a clever usage of Rhinos and terrain has definitely denied LOS a few times, and any shots that get through have cover to deal with. If your TWC are being shot, then I would say the *player* (Whomever that may be ) is not that smart.

If you're saying that speeders pose more threat than the TWC, I dont wanna engage in this argument anymore.

That is very situational. If you have a land speeder within melta range of your LR/Heavy Armor, are you going to concentrate fire on that or on the TWC over 36" away behind some rhinos? Also, this is a discussion, not necessarily an arguement, just yet.

Wolf Lords are definitely not a requirement with TWC, they only become a must if you are taking a large unit and sinking a large chunk of points into them already (i.e taking plenty of Storm Shields). The Lord gets you Ld10 and a couple of ablative Wolves which are very helpful.

Small units of TWC, 1-3 (yes lone TWC can work) can be equally as effective as the big deathstar units. They obviously can't charge headlong at the enemy and expect to come out on top, but played more conservatively and keeping them in cover in the midfield can cause people serious headaches. If the enemy commits he can expect them to countercharge hard and if a transport gets wrecked they can swoop in and dispatch the contents easily enough (short of TH/SS Terminators anyway). Smaller units like this are a fraction of the cost of the big units as they don't take Storm Shields (they sit in cover untill they want to hit something and aren't required to take on other deathstars/Dreads as you bring other stuff for that) and if the enemy shoots them just thank him for not shooting the stuff actually shooting back and go to ground if you need to.

Powerguy wrote:Wolf Lords are definitely not a requirement with TWC, they only become a must if you are taking a large unit and sinking a large chunk of points into them already (i.e taking plenty of Storm Shields). The Lord gets you Ld10 and a couple of ablative Wolves which are very helpful.

Small units of TWC, 1-3 (yes lone TWC can work) can be equally as effective as the big deathstar units. They obviously can't charge headlong at the enemy and expect to come out on top, but played more conservatively and keeping them in cover in the midfield can cause people serious headaches. If the enemy commits he can expect them to countercharge hard and if a transport gets wrecked they can swoop in and dispatch the contents easily enough (short of TH/SS Terminators anyway). Smaller units like this are a fraction of the cost of the big units as they don't take Storm Shields (they sit in cover untill they want to hit something and aren't required to take on other deathstars/Dreads as you bring other stuff for that) and if the enemy shoots them just thank him for not shooting the stuff actually shooting back and go to ground if you need to.

I agree with the waiting to pounce thats how ill be using my TWC so big units with wolf lord wont apply .

As someone who's played against TWC a bunch of times, I am always deeply grateful to an opponent who fails to lead them with a wolf lord.

Ld8 has over a 27% chance of failure. Moderate shooting and a tank shock or two is all I need to get rid of Ld8 TWC. It's much harder to get rid of Ld10 TWC.

I've said it before, I'll say it again; if a TWC unit's Leadership ever becomes a factor you're doin' it wrong, and if your opponent has enough shooting to force Morale on your TWC while handling the rest of your army something has failed. Badly. See how annoying it is trying to kill Bikes with Bolters? How about anti-tank guns? Yeah. Now imagine that with two-wound models that have a 19-24" charge range and can only be dropped outright by S10.

TWC units do not need leaders. Runic Weapons, maybe, but leaders? Naw.

Lictor_Interdictor wrote:I've said it before, I'll say it again; if a TWC unit's Leadership ever becomes a factor you're doin' it wrong, and if your opponent has enough shooting to force Morale on your TWC while handling the rest of your army something has failed. Badly. See how annoying it is trying to kill Bikes with Bolters? How about anti-tank guns? Yeah. Now imagine that with two-wound models that have a 19-24" charge range and can only be dropped outright by S10.

TWC units do not need leaders. Runic Weapons, maybe, but leaders? Naw.

+1

Thank you.

I weep for the numerous SW players who are going to be following these bad advice.

I'd be more concerned about the people adding 145pts (at least) to a 200pt unit because they're afraid of Ld8.

Learn to use the Cavalry properly instead of ploughing points into it for no reason.

Lictor_Interdictor wrote:I'd be more concerned about the people adding 145pts (at least) to a 200pt unit because they're afraid of Ld8.

Learn to use the Cavalry properly instead of ploughing points into it for no reason.

Play TWC first before giving comments on a unit you have no idea how it works.

Do people run a TWC unit without a TW lord with 2 wolves to dump low AP wounds on to? And isn't the TW lord the true power behind the unit?

Only in a 1000pt or less army would I even consider running a TWC unit without a TW lord. Anything more than that and you are asking for trouble if you don't bring the bossman.

I've never really had issue with the twc ld8.

My problem is when it becomes ld6...

Yuber wrote:Play TWC first before giving comments on a unit you have no idea how it works.

How about instead of just being all snarky and superior you actually give us a bit of useful input? You say you know how TWC work and that my comments demonstrate that I don't; I'd proffer that having run SW Cav in one form or another since the Codex was released I know perfectly well how they work, and what you're saying just doesn't tie in with what I have seen.

So how's about sharing a bit of your ineffable wisdom with us? How DO TWC work in your opinion?

padixon wrote:Do people run a TWC unit without a TW lord with 2 wolves to dump low AP wounds on to?

Lord plus TW mount plus Wolves = 165pts

Do you want to pay that for a Lord with so little killing power? For the sake of more bodies in a unit that's already tough as nails and expensive?

I don't.

And isn't the TW lord the true power behind the unit?

If you spend lots of points on him he outperforms the unit to such an extent that the TWC unit becomes completely unnecessary.

That's why I ditched my TWC in favour of a Lord with Fenrisian Wolves as wound counters. He charges something, and it goes back into the case with almost guaranteed certainty. You don't get that with TWC no matter how you kit them out.

If, however, you DON'T spend lots of points on him, he becomes just another TWC model, except with Ld10. One that can be targetted seperately by Walkers and Powerfisters and what-have-you.

Only in a 1000pt or less army would I even consider running a TWC unit without a TW lord. Anything more than that and you are asking for trouble if you don't bring the bossman.

Seriously, you're not. It's fine. Honestly, it'll be okay.

Also there are better alternatives to TWC in a sub-1000pts army so leaving them out is a good idea.

If I had a calv I would give them all different gear

One Naked
One with x2 wolf claws
One with claw and Shield
One with First and Shield
One with Hammer and Shield
One with Some Kinda neat one handed Gun and Shield.


Basically give as many of them with shields as possible and put My Famous Wolf lord onto a wolf. "Voluund Gunnar" Which is TH/SS Saga of the Bear with the Wolftooth Necklace in case of Psychic powers.
Kind of Expensive but I seen him Tackle on a Group of Khorne Berserkers and that Chaos Lord or whatever it is called and Kill off the Berserkers in one round and the Lord on the other.

That was an Epic time for Voluund! I mean...he just...It was just WOW! Beat the ever living crap out of Berserkers, Caught up to them and mowed them down by himself. The Lord charged in...dealt a wound and than the lord died.

Vasarto wrote:If I had a calv I would give them all different gear

One Naked
One with x2 wolf claws
One with claw and Shield
One with First and Shield
One with Hammer and Shield
One with Some Kinda neat one handed Gun and Shield.


Basically give as many of them with shields as possible and put My Famous Wolf lord onto a wolf. "Voluund Gunnar" Which is TH/SS Saga of the Bear with the Wolftooth Necklace in case of Psychic powers.
Kind of Expensive but I seen him Tackle on a Group of Khorne Berserkers and that Chaos Lord or whatever it is called and Kill off the Berserkers in one round and the Lord on the other.

That was an Epic time for Voluund! I mean...he just...It was just WOW! Beat the ever living crap out of Berserkers, Caught up to them and mowed them down by himself. The Lord charged in...dealt a wound and than the lord died.

Sounds deadly did you run your Lord behind TWC unit ?

Lictor_Interdictor wrote:

Yuber wrote:Play TWC first before giving comments on a unit you have no idea how it works.

How about instead of just being all snarky and superior you actually give us a bit of useful input? You say you know how TWC work and that my comments demonstrate that I don't; I'd proffer that having run SW Cav in one form or another since the Codex was released I know perfectly well how they work, and what you're saying just doesn't tie in with what I have seen.

So how's about sharing a bit of your ineffable wisdom with us? How DO TWC work in your opinion?

padixon wrote:Do people run a TWC unit without a TW lord with 2 wolves to dump low AP wounds on to?

Lord plus TW mount plus Wolves = 165pts

Do you want to pay that for a Lord with so little killing power? For the sake of more bodies in a unit that's already tough as nails and expensive?

I don't.

And isn't the TW lord the true power behind the unit?

If you spend lots of points on him he outperforms the unit to such an extent that the TWC unit becomes completely unnecessary.

That's why I ditched my TWC in favour of a Lord with Fenrisian Wolves as wound counters. He charges something, and it goes back into the case with almost guaranteed certainty. You don't get that with TWC no matter how you kit them out.

If, however, you DON'T spend lots of points on him, he becomes just another TWC model, except with Ld10. One that can be targetted seperately by Walkers and Powerfisters and what-have-you.

Only in a 1000pt or less army would I even consider running a TWC unit without a TW lord. Anything more than that and you are asking for trouble if you don't bring the bossman.

Seriously, you're not. It's fine. Honestly, it'll be okay.

Also there are better alternatives to TWC in a sub-1000pts army so leaving them out is a good idea.

Im sorry if I am being snarky because I hate people (not necessarily you) who force their opinion on a unit they dont understand anything about at all. Im sorry, I just dont believe you have used TWC properly.

To stay on topic:

We ask the question: "What is the use TWC anyway?"

Seems to me that the reason why your TWC aint catching that much heat, or didn't even considering putting a Lord in, (which I would like to repeat, not only you do for LD 10 but for horrendous killing power) is because you are running them as counter charge units: A Grave mistake I might say. There are tad things way better for countercharging something other than TWC. I can reverse your argument and say:

"Hell im not gonna use a 200+ unit for countercharge, when I can get 2 Dreads for it, or even 3 Lone wolves, or even my humble greyhunter can countercharge well."

"Why is the Wolf Lord necessary?"

-Because the TWC are only Ld 8. They tend to get screwed over when hit by ordnance barrage weapon (LD7) which will, 40% of time send you packing home. Ld8 is also trash when you start losing assaults, because you didnt have the WS6 Ld10 wolf lord that rerolls to hit (You will lose assaults against units of the same costs, I can name a ton of them if you want)

-Because Sv3+ and WS 4 is weak, a single power weapon is not enough and storm shields are expensive on a model with only 3+ armor save. What do you usually give TWC anyway? Powerfists? 4 WS4 power fist attacks is very underwhelming especially when your squad starts losing 4 attacks when a model dies. The Wolf lord is there so you can actually win assaults against a competent player using competent units (Khorne Berserkers) to fight your TWC. Everyone tends to pour on attacks on the Wolf lord, leaving your precious 4-attack models unharmed.

-Because when a salvo of 5 missiles hit you, you will be thanking that you allocated 1 on a Wolf lord with 2+ save and another 1 on a TWC with an SS

-Because when you get hit by weaken resolve, your Wolf lord has that Wolf tail talisman that can save your entire unit from running away.

-Because You dont wanna get hit by JOTWW and risk losing your only model with a power weapon which makes the TWC unit competent. The wolf lord has initiative of 5 and psy defense and will have better chances of surviving. You can afford to have half, or even the entire squad wiped out (except the WL), and the Wolf Lord would still wipe the floor.

I have plenty more in my mind, but these points are good and well enough.

Well take my advice as you like, but ive now played nearing on 200 games with thunderwolves, ussualy round the 1850 mark, with my thunderwolves in alot of variations. only a few games have they failed me and thats due more to my poor rolling. ive run as many as 10 with 2 lords, and as i found that VERY killy, a smart oponent pics off the few troops you have and bogs them down. currently I use a FB/SS thunderlord, with 4 thunderwolves. 1. SS 2. SS/MB 3. TH 4. barebones. along with 4 razorbacks, a rino with a runepriest, and one unit of longfangs, this army has proved extreamly effective against all oponents, allowing me to at worst draw most games (ussualy against leafblower guard *grumble*)
As for how I use that thunderwolf unit...
- I tend to ussualy run them off center, not quite an actual flank run. I need to keep them off to one side, avoiding some of the enemys shorter ranged weapons while still posing a threat to 3/4 of the board.
- Thunderwolves are an excellent distration. dont be discouraged when they start dying because if hes shooting at them hes not shooting at your troops and other valuable late game units.
- Support them. run a transport close behind, to make him think twice about throwing one of his power units at it. a DE player is gunna think twice about tossing his incubi/archon ect at it when he knows next turn theres gunna be a squad of greyhunters in support, or ready to finish him off should he clear the thunderwolves. also fire support is important. toss some shots at what you intend to charge next turn, because beleive it or not they actually dont do as much killing as you'd expect. I find its the lord and the thunderhammer/powerfist that really beat face, the rest I think of as filler or wound soakers.
- Use them as your sheepdogs. its interesting how some oponents react to thunderwolves...many will try to avoid them, moving away and even sometimes keeping my thunderwolves out of combat for entire games, but you will learn to use this to funnel him into postion for your other units to spring the trap. And if he dosnt...well he will find out fast just how mean thunderwolves can be!
- Combocharge!!! why have one chimeria when you can have 4? dont forget your S5 rending, with a S10 TH..and a S6/10 (depending on what you took) wolf lord with a minimum of 5 attacks on the charge...eat some delicous rear armour! this also works with infanty. short of termies, try and drag 2 or if the guard or eldar as many as 3 units in with you. it might be a long combat and you may think your being tied up...but really your tying him up and creating a large LOS blocker with that combat. use your other units corectly and creating tieups like this can win you game.

These are my opinions, and what works extreamly well for me. If you guys disagree im curious to know why, but as far as getting the most out of thunderwolves I think theres a bit more than a "point and click" to them, and like I said, get ready for them to take entire armys worth of shooting some turns...and get ready to lost them. I highly sugest avoiding trying to hide them to much and using them as a counter assult unit, lest your playing orks or a very swarmy nid army. Otherwise make them the target, make them a threat, hes either gunna regret putting to much into them and letting those grey hunters do their jobs, or hes gunna really regret ignoring the thunderwolves

just my two cents and good luck Wolf Brother!

Vasarto wrote:If I had a calv I would give them all different gear

One Naked
One with x2 wolf claws
One with claw and Shield
One with First and Shield
One with Hammer and Shield
One with Some Kinda neat one handed Gun and Shield.


Basically give as many of them with shields as possible and put My Famous Wolf lord onto a wolf. "Voluund Gunnar" Which is TH/SS Saga of the Bear with the Wolftooth Necklace in case of Psychic powers.
Kind of Expensive but I seen him Tackle on a Group of Khorne Berserkers and that Chaos Lord or whatever it is called and Kill off the Berserkers in one round and the Lord on the other.

That was an Epic time for Voluund! I mean...he just...It was just WOW! Beat the ever living crap out of Berserkers, Caught up to them and mowed them down by himself. The Lord charged in...dealt a wound and than the lord died.

That setup is illegal since you may only have one special close combat weapon in a TWC pack. Also model limit in a pack is 5.

Vasarto wrote:One Naked
One with x2 wolf claws
One with claw and Shield
One with First and Shield
One with Hammer and Shield
One with Some Kinda neat one handed Gun and Shield.

You only get one special close combat weapon per squad.

Yuber wrote:Im sorry if I am being snarky because I hate people (not necessarily you) who force their opinion on a unit they dont understand anything about at all. Im sorry, I just dont believe you have used TWC properly.

To stay on topic:

We ask the question: "What is the use TWC anyway?"

Seems to me that the reason why your TWC aint catching that much heat, or didn't even considering putting a Lord in, (which I would like to repeat, not only you do for LD 10 but for horrendous killing power)

So I'm paying for a Lord to give my unit two things it doesn't need instead of one.

I've never had any problems with the TWC's ability to win combats. Granted, that might be because I'm not the sort of person who wants them to be TH/ SS Terminators; I use them to beat down basic and medium-grade infantry, which is what they were designed for, and in that respect they've never let me down. The general rule is, if something has less models than my Thunder Hammer has attacks it's going to die, if it has more it will get Swept and if it's Fearless it'll take No Retreat! wounds.

Basically, if you're charging at the right things, the TWC will win ninety nine times out of a hundred. In this regard, you're paying for a Lord to make a certainty more certain.

No thanks.

All that said, even using TWC in the role they were designed to fulfil (killing infantry) isn't completely problem-free. Big fat horde infantry squads with more than 20 models in them tend to tar-pit you for an inordinate length of time. Maybe two whole assault phases, depending on just how badly your to-hit rolls fail.

Would the Lord help here? Of course he would. How? He lets the TWC unit inflict more wounds on their opponent than they would otherwise have done, thus getting them out of combat quicker.

So would putting an extra TWC model in the squad. This extra model comes at one-third the price of your most basic Cavalry Lord (dude on a Wolf with NO wargear), and can't be targetted seperately thus won't find himself chewing on 40-odd attacks while his squad watches and laughs at him. You could also run some Grey Hunters into the side of the combat and inflict more wounds that way. I have lots of Grey Hunters because they're my Troops.

So, do I put a Lord in the unit in case I hit a green wall? Again, no thanks.

Ld10. Charge the right things, stay in combat or in cover, keep a Runic Weapon nearby, and you'll rarely have problems with Ld8.

is because you are running them as counter charge units: A Grave mistake I might say.

I run them as Thunderwolf Cavalry; they do what I need them to during a game. It may be that I need them to counter-charge something. It may be that I need them to wheel into the backfield and pick off something that's threatening my Long Fangs. It may be I need them to grab some Kroot in terrain, or get the hell forward and multi-charge a gunline, or eat a unit that my guns have shot out of it's transport, or, if I get particularly desperate, get into midfield to surround a Rhino and Thunder Hammer it to death.

All of this they can do, because they're Space Marines riding giant mutant wolves.

There are tad things way better for countercharging something other than TWC. I can reverse your argument and say:

"Hell im not gonna use a 200+ unit for countercharge, when I can get 2 Dreads for it, or even 3 Lone wolves, or even my humble greyhunter can countercharge well."

I'm not going to disagree with you. If all you want is a counter-charge unit there are cheaper options, and Wolves by and large don't particularly need them.

Thing is, with TWC counter-charging, it's not so much 'counter-charging' in the traditional, "I'm a gunline with Ogryns standing behind me" sense of the word; it's more a big 20" zone of 'Go Away' that infantry don't want to enter in case they get destroyed by big men on big wolves.

"Why is the Wolf Lord necessary?"

-Because the TWC are only Ld 8. They tend to get screwed over when hit by ordnance barrage weapon (LD7) which will, 40% of time send you packing home.

I'm trying to remember the last time I saw an Ordnance Barrage weapon - not just in the army lists of people I play against, but in, like... any army list ever. I'm sure there are some, and I'm sure a lot of them would be able to cause unsaved and/ or unsaveable wounds on a TWC unit, but they're so rare you can more or less count on it not happening.

And, once again, your unit should either be in cover or in combat at all times, so they should either have a cover save against whatever wounds such a weapon may cause (and remember, if it ain't S10 it's a single wound off a single model) or they should be untargettable.

Ld8 is also trash when you start losing assaults, because you didnt have the WS6 Ld10 wolf lord that rerolls to hit (You will lose assaults against units of the same costs, I can name a ton of them if you want)

I'm sure you could name lots of units that TWC will lose assaults against. There are lots. Not including special characters there are at least 3 examples I can think of in the Space Wolves Codex alone.

What's the answer? Is it 'spend 145-plus points on a Wolf Lord'? Or is it 'don't charge things that will kill your TWC'?

"AHA! But what if THEY charge ME?!" Cavalry movement, sir; nothing should EVER be charging you, unless you have failed or been tar-pitted. Moral of the story; don't get tar-pitted. Or fail.

And how does the Wolf Lord get rerolls to hit? Did you give him the Saga Of The Beast Slayer and charge the unit at something it shouldn't be anywhere near? That's not good, is it?

-Because Sv3+ and WS 4 is weak, a single power weapon is not enough and storm shields are expensive on a model with only 3+ armor save.

They also have T5 and 2 wounds. If you are a Dark Eldar without poisoned attacks you need a 6+ to wound my TWC. If you are a Terminator with Lightning Claws you need a 5+. If you are a Spess Mehren with a Powerfist you need a 2+ to inflict a single wound on a single model. Assuming you haven't already been pulverised before I1.

This is, of course, AFTER you've beaten my WS4.

If all of your models are hitting my Cavalry on a 3+ and wounding on a 2+, hitting at S10, and/ or ignoring armour saves... why the hell am I in close combat with you? Here, have some Missiles and Plasma, and a Lascannon or two as well. Stay away from my doggies you nasty monsters.

What do you usually give TWC anyway?

3 guys, one Hammer.

Powerfists?

I do it big-dog style; Thunder Hammer all the way. 5 points ain't sh*t.

4 WS4 power fist attacks is very underwhelming especially when your squad starts losing 4 attacks when a model dies.

TWC don't die unless you charge them at something that can actually kill them. NB: MEQs don't count. Hit on 4, wound on 5, 3+ save, I'm still alive! Oh wait I rolled a 2... never mind, I have another wound. Have a Thunder Hammer in the face. Five times.

The Wolf lord is there so you can actually win assaults against a competent player using competent units (Khorne Berserkers) to fight your TWC.

Berzerkers are not a threat to TWC. No base-S4 model is, Furious Charge or no. If you'd said BA AssSquads with a Priest, that'd be fair enough; it's still not a threat to TWC and will still die once we get to I1 and they have failed to kill off my models, but they move 18" per turn and thus it's perfectly possible that they might be able to charge your Cavalry unit even if you don't fail and aren't tar-pitted.

Moreover, a competent player isn't necessarily fighting my TWC. He's fighting my entire army. I don't even want to tell you what I can fit around 3 TWC models at 1500pts. It would scare you.

Everyone tends to pour on attacks on the Wolf lord, leaving your precious 4-attack models unharmed.

... but leaving your poor Wolf Lord eating lots of attacks. That's not necessarily a huge problem, he can handle it, after all he is T5 and has multiple wounds.

So do TWC models.

And, on the rare occasion that a TWC model ends up wilting under the deluge, you lose one model. Not one Kill Point.

-Because when a salvo of 5 missiles hit you, you will be thanking that you allocated 1 on a Wolf lord with 2+ save and another 1 on a TWC with an SS

Why would a salvo of 5 missiles hit my TWC? Are people actually stupid enough to waste their anti-tank on my Cavalry that is capable of killing a single unit per turn?

Really? When I have 6 vehicles and 3 units of Long Fangs at 1500pts? And another full unit of TWC plus whatever the hell else I can get in at 2000?

You're fighting the TWC in a vacuum. In a vacuum the Lord looks like a necessity. In practical terms, he isn't.

-Because when you get hit by weaken resolve, your Wolf lord has that Wolf tail talisman that can save your entire unit from running away.

5+ saves are the reason nobody runs Assault Terminators with Lightning Claws. See, AssTermies with Claws will hack and slash their way through an awful lot more models every turn than the same unit would with Thunder Hammers. The problem is, when TH/ SS Termies eat plasma and lascannons, they raise their Shield and get a 3++ save. When LC Termies get hit by that stuff you pick them up and put them back in the case.

That's what a Wolf Tail Talisman does for you. It fails. Get a Rune Priest instead.

-Because You dont wanna get hit by JOTWW and risk losing your only model with a power weapon which makes the TWC unit competent.

Not strictly true; and you're talking about one power in a sea of powers, which makes this almost entirely situational. IF the opponent is playing Wolves AND he has a Rune Priest AND that Rune Priest has JotWW AND he is in a position to snipe you with it...

The wolf lord has initiative of 5 and psy defense and will have better chances of surviving.

He has a 5+ save which sucks. There is also nothing stopping the opponent targetting the Thunder Hammer bod once this save is failed, thus negating the supposed 'benefit' of the Wolf Lord's I5.

You can afford to have half, or even the entire squad wiped out (except the WL), and the Wolf Lord would still wipe the floor.

... which, as I've said before, makes the TWC unit almost completely pointless.

There's a tipping point with geared-up Lords, which you tend to hit around the 200pt mark; before this point the Lord serves no purpose other than providing a few more attacks at a higher Initiative (thus making a good squad slightly better), providing Ld10, and being an IC.

At the tipping point the Lord becomes so monstrously destructive against infantry that he will usually wipe out any squad with less wounds than he has attacks at I5, leaving your TWC to mop up whatever's left and Consolidate. Which is pointless, because he could've just Swept the lot and done that himself.

Push the Lord past this tipping point and he becomes a match for most any other CC model in the game, and can take on pretty much anything with a reasonable chance of success. The TWC are now utterly pointless and a waste of time; a unit of Wolves to get him into combat unmolested would be a more sensible choice.




I'm not saying Lords in TWC squads are a bad thing. Let's face it, they're both pretty awesome.

I'm not even saying that Lords and TWC units CAN'T co-exist in the same army due to points-munching.

I'm saying, if you want to run TWC without a Lord, it's entirely feasible and perfectly safe; the downsides are almost entirely situational and easily negated by correct usage of the TWC, and of course the rest of your army.

Lictor_Interdictor wrote:

GIANT WALL OF TEXT

With such a huge wall of text you have here, I've no time to read them thus, you autowin the argument.

PS: 4 models of TWc simply cant win against genstealers and zerkers. Tried and tested. This is why I thought you never played TWC against these things.
PPS: ive tried bumping with a green tide of 30 boyz with my 3 man TWC + wolf lord, I destroyed the unit in 4 assault turns. If that's called tarpitting you down, then i guess we are playing a different game. peace out.

i have played my TWC against many different armies and players and i would never load them to the max. its too expensive and reduces the rest of the army limiting your options.
i run 2 packs in a 1500 list and 3 in a 2000.
i put a lord with runic armpur, power weapon in the front most pack that way you have a 2+ save T5 S5 model with ld10 and runic saves for liiby attacks.

the wolf packs themselves are run basic to keep points down.
1 std
1 with bolt gun
1 with MB
1 power weapon
and either mark of the wolfen or storm shield

my advice is never hold them back, get them in the fight as quick as you can and watch the enemy crumble. I have seen a single wolf wipe out 7 marines over a couple of turns and continue on to contest an objective.

space wolves as a general rule of thumb have crap leadership and so wolfguard are essential in a grey hunter pack and a wolf lord is a big advantage in a twc pack but only 1. especially with runic armour.
i also run my grey hunters with a wolfguard in termy armour, yet again its a 2+ save in std unit with improved leadership and a power weapon for 33 points, thats a massive squad boost.

space wolves are fun on many levels and for me twc and wolfguard termy leaders are what is the real beauty of space wolves. I hate long fang lists - anyone can win with lots of missiles but that no fun.

I actually run 3 individual Twolves with SS/PF each. They're few enough points that I simply don't care if they die and they can gang up on a large squad if necessary or go their separate ways and kill a small squad/vehicle each.

I tend to run dedicated missile wovles, though, so I don't need/can't afford massive Twolf assault squads.

Yuber wrote:

Lictor_Interdictor wrote:

GIANT WALL OF TEXT

With such a huge wall of text you have here, I've no time to read them thus, you autowin the argument.

That's sad.

PS: 4 models of TWc simply cant win against genstealers and zerkers. Tried and tested. This is why I thought you never played TWC against these things.

Genestealers are S6 and hit first; they also get eaten by shooting. Ergo, not something you should be charging with TWC.

Berzerkers simply don't present a credible threat to TWC. Slice it however you want. Math-hammer it even. Unless they're coming in ten by two to charge a unit of 3 TWC or less, they're going to get stomped.

PPS: ive tried bumping with a green tide of 30 boyz with my 3 man TWC + wolf lord, I destroyed the unit in 4 assault turns. If that's called tarpitting you down, then i guess we are playing a different game. peace out.

Your unit costs 295pts with no wargear other than the Wolves they're riding. His costs about 230 fully tooled-up. His unit kept yours in combat, and thus out of the game, for a full 2 turns.

That, my friend, is your unit being tar-pitted.

I'm still struggling to work out exactly how he managed it to be honest; against 30 Boyz I'd expect the old '3 Guys 1 Hammer' TWC squad to be Sweeping them off the table on the second assault phase. You forget to blow on the dice or something?

sourclams wrote:I actually run 3 individual Twolves with SS/PF each. They're few enough points that I simply don't care if they die and they can gang up on a large squad if necessary or go their separate ways and kill a small squad/vehicle each.

I tend to run dedicated missile wovles, though, so I don't need/can't afford massive Twolf assault squads.

I've seen people doing this as well, only it's usually Wolf Claws and the Storm Shields are optional.

I like your load-out better, personally; it's not massively expensive and it allows them to beat down things that would otherwise eat them, like Walkers and Monsters.

Just be careful you don't fail a Leadership test or you will have to put 3 Wolf Lords into your army :(

I just wanted to say as someone new to the game and who is fielding a space wolves army, this thread has been extremely educational and is getting me very excited for when my thunderwolves arrive!

Lictor_Interdictor wrote:Just be careful you don't fail a Leadership test or you will have to put 3 Wolf Lords into your army :(

I admit, I laffed.

stewy37 wrote:I just wanted to say as someone new to the game and who is fielding a space wolves army, this thread has been extremely educational and is getting me very excited for when my thunderwolves arrive!

We are glad that your finding this info useful ! I cant wait for my Thunder wolves to come in as well should arrive in a week or so.

Lictor_Interdictor wrote:

Yuber wrote:

Lictor_Interdictor wrote:

GIANT WALL OF TEXT

With such a huge wall of text you have here, I've no time to read them thus, you autowin the argument.

That's sad.

PS: 4 models of TWc simply cant win against genstealers and zerkers. Tried and tested. This is why I thought you never played TWC against these things.

Genestealers are S6 and hit first; they also get eaten by shooting. Ergo, not something you should be charging with TWC.

Berzerkers simply don't present a credible threat to TWC. Slice it however you want. Math-hammer it even. Unless they're coming in ten by two to charge a unit of 3 TWC or less, they're going to get stomped.

PPS: ive tried bumping with a green tide of 30 boyz with my 3 man TWC + wolf lord, I destroyed the unit in 4 assault turns. If that's called tarpitting you down, then i guess we are playing a different game. peace out.

Your unit costs 295pts with no wargear other than the Wolves they're riding. His costs about 230 fully tooled-up. His unit kept yours in combat, and thus out of the game, for a full 2 turns.

That, my friend, is your unit being tar-pitted.

I'm still struggling to work out exactly how he managed it to be honest; against 30 Boyz I'd expect the old '3 Guys 1 Hammer' TWC squad to be Sweeping them off the table on the second assault phase. You forget to blow on the dice or something?

I meant two assault turns. not 2 of my turns. That is a 400+ points unit killing a 200 point unit in 1 active player turn and strong enough to take on another 30 boyz and finish them off.

Genestealers are something you dont assault. I agree. But because of the TWC super huge foot print, you will get charged 8/10 times by infiltrating genestealers.

I failed to reiterate why berzerkers would own a 4 man lordless TWC. While Ill give you credit that the TWC will surely stomp berzerkers, TWC will barely win and after combat there will be too few TWC left that is enough to finished off by other chaos assets. More often than not you'll be left with 1-2 models, probably down to 1 wound each. Or worse, a dead TH TWC model - this is also assuming he didnt get the charge.

Yuber wrote:I meant two assault turns. not 2 of my turns. That is a 400+ points unit killing a 200 point unit in 1 active player turn and strong enough to take on another 30 boyz and finish them off.

Fair enough, but here's the thing; an ordinary TWC unit will kill 30 Boyz in 2 assault phases if they have a Hammer. They don't need the Lord. He is completely extraneous.

Genestealers are something you dont assault. I agree. But because of the TWC super huge foot print, you will get charged 8/10 times by infiltrating genestealers.

Not if you deploy them properly. Even at that I wouldn't be altogether worried if they did get the charge; they strike first, but they still don't have the stopping power to ensure the Hammer dies before it can smash them.

I failed to reiterate why berzerkers would own a 4 man lordless TWC. While Ill give you credit that the TWC will surely stomp berzerkers, TWC will barely win and after combat there will be too few TWC left that is enough to finished off by other chaos assets. More often than not you'll be left with 1-2 models, probably down to 1 wound each. Or worse, a dead TH TWC model - this is also assuming he didnt get the charge.

Unless you bring 20 of them Berserkers are not a threat to TWC. Even if they get the charge, which they never should. I'd be more worried about getting stuck in combat with a squad of Thousand Sons than I would with a unit of Berserkers. Or Genestealers, for that matter.