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Brother SRM wrote:Coax weapons don't let you reroll hits. Twin linked weapons do.

Valkyrie wrote:...then the main weapon may re-roll hits (or the directional dice) against that target.

Dunno about you guys, but I would much rather reroll misses

Ulver wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:Coax weapons don't let you reroll hits. Twin linked weapons do.

Valkyrie wrote:...then the main weapon may re-roll hits (or the directional dice) against that target.

Dunno about you guys, but I would much rather reroll misses

Ahahaha man that woas a good catch there

@OP - The "Lance" special rule on some weapons (typically only found on Eldar and Dark Eldar weapons), lowers an enemy armor value to 12 against the shot if the armor is higher (for example, your Leman Russ would only have 12 front or side armor against my bright lances, but still have 10 if I hit the rear).

Perhaps the main point here is it's survivability. Let's look at a Hydra and SWS team with 3 meltas for the same cost as a Vanquisher.

The Vanquisher has massive range, high armor on all sides that count (you can easily protect the rear - stick it against the edge of the board), and a shot that, when it hits, will virtually always penetrate it's target.

The Hydra, on the other hand, has 12/10/10 (or is it 12/12/10), shorter range, less armor piercing capability, a second shot, and is half the price. The SWS is 6 guardsmen with guardsmen stats, on foot (unless you bought a chimera elsewhere and stuck them in it), 3 of which have meltaguns which need to be within 6" to be effective. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't ever let 3 meltas get within range to blow up my vehicles if I could help it. While it would be more reliable, it doesn't fit in every list. Whereas the Vanquisher could potentially work in a list, with a little tweaking.

And that's the key. A little tweaking. You don't take the Executioner in every list, because it's not worth it's points in every list. Neither is the Punisher, Vanquisher, or even the standard Russ. They fill a specific role each (less so for the LRBT), and in the right list they are awesome. But not them all.

I think my suggestion fits in the right list just fine, and I agree that something cheaper could get the job done for less, but only if it's allowed to. Hydras can't take Lascannons from a Land Raider too well, and a SWS can get assaulted by Tau and lose. But the Vanquisher can survive Lascannons more than half the time without so much as a damage result.

Hydra is 12/10/10. If it were 12/12/10 that would be great.

The problem with your comparison is that the Hydra and Vanquisher wil generally be shooting different targets - the Vanquisher will focus on heavy vehicles, while the Hydra focuses on swatting skimmers.

I feel the main problem with the Vanquisher is that it really becomes rather useless after you shoot down their armor - you can throw down 4 wounds at most (at range, assuming for some reason you bought the hull heavy bolter, and assuming they all hit, wound...).

The problem I feel with giving it LRBT rounds is that it would make the normal LRBT next to useless - for a few more points, a combo of the tanks? I would love for my Leman Russ to be able to actually do something against armor 12+ reliably, but I feel that combining the two is just a mistake.

All in all, I don't want to pay upwards of 200 points (Vanquisher + Pask + Lascannon) to take out armor at range - the Guard Codex has many, many other options. Like Stormtroopers - a squad with 2 meltas is 105 points, deepstrike them and melt some backfield vehicle.

Volkov wrote:All I want from the vanquisher is AP1...I am much content with all else the same

Agreed.

grayspark wrote:Hmmmmmm, what about giving it the Lance quality to represent its ability to smash through armor?

Lance is an alien technology. If even the Astartes don't have any lance weapons, why would guards have access to such technology?

Ailaros wrote:Seriously, though, by-damage, a 105 point squad of melta stormies is as likely to kill a vehicle as a thousand points of vanquisher.

Giving them an uber-bonus may SEEM like a big deal, but it really isn't when you actually look at the statistics. Long-range anti-tank is pretty crappy in 5th ed, and the only way it's even vaguely viable is if it's very cheap, which the vanquisher very much isn't. It either needs a substantial damage increase (the +2 on the vehicle damage chart is getting there), or it needs its price to be cut in half.

Although in most cases I'd still take a hydra and a melta SWS over two vanquishers, even if they were only 75 points apiece...

I think you are failing to see the niche that is the vanquisher. They bust armor from far, far away in relative safety. Meltavets need to get close....and then they die.



Here is my version of the Vanquisher.


Leman Russ Vanquisher
BS - 3(4)
Armor - 14/13/10
Vanquisher Cannon - 72", S8, AP1, Heavy 1
Rules: Lumbering Behemoth, Vanquisher cannon rolls 2D6 for armor penetration, Advanced Targeting System
Options: Standard for Vanquisher as now.
Points: 165

Advanced Targeting System: The Vanquisher is equipped with a more advanced, laser-targeting system. Also, only the best marksmen are given the honor of piloting this tank. As long as it doesn't move, the Vanquisher has +1 BS (already included in their stats in parenthesis).