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Sir Pseudonymous wrote:If it was a skimmer, jetbike, or jump troop unit, then yes, it could go right over a land raider, as those ignore terrain and intervening models when moving.

Ok, since people seem to be ignoring the fact that I pointed out that the rules don't actually say this, can you please provide a rules quote that actually says that they ignore terrain and other models?

COredump - page 83. It points out that jetbikes etc measure the diagonal moved, unlike infantry (as they dont move across and up)

Got it, That is what you said, but not how I read it. Makes perfect sense.


Any comment on the 'straight line' versus 'path taken' methods of measuring?

I'd say you just hve to house rule it as the rules don't specify either way. I personally would say use common sense, straight line if your fly over open terrain or if you only go over tanks or small hills or something. But if you're trying to fly over whole 3 story buildings? Then I'm gonna start asking you to measure by path....

coredump wrote:Any comment on the 'straight line' versus 'path taken' methods of measuring?

Only for creatures that can ACTUALLY move in straight lines through terrain (e.g. wraiths), and for very certain situations (measuring distances, smf, etc.), and those do not always agree.

From what I read.

I use a tape measure that can bend so such units can go over instead of straight through, unless their rules say as much.

If we accept the 'bent path' method of measurement, it introduces the potential problem of skimmers flying over intervening terrain and units.

For example, a Trygon is roughly six inches high. It would be impossible for skimmers to fly over it. Some shorter models might cause trouble.

Forests might also present a problem if they contain tree models a few inches high.

Is this the intention of the rules?

Kilkrazy wrote:If we accept the 'bent path' method of measurement, it introduces the potential problem of skimmers flying over intervening terrain and units.

For example, a Trygon is roughly six inches high. It would be impossible for skimmers to fly over it. Some shorter models might cause trouble.

Forests might also present a problem if they contain tree models a few inches high.

Is this the intention of the rules?

I don't see why it wouldn't be the intention. They can move 12", they can ignore terrain tests... doesn't mean they can just ignore terrain.

And look at the opposite, the skimmer can only move 12", but has no problem with a 15" wall in its way? That doesn't slow it down at all? So now it can move 32"+?

There should be a difference between 'skimming' 12" and 'teleporting' 12".

Hi All,

I think one should first consider how you will measure to shoot at the skimmer.

How do you measure the shot, from the Base of the shooter to the actual base of the skimmer?

Do you measure from the base of the shooter to the base of the tower? That is different!!!

If you are measuring from the base of the firer to the actual Skimmer then the vehicle must have moved over 24"!!!

Example: If the skimmer can only move 24" it can't get to to the top because if the tower is 24" tall the move would be more then 24"!!!

The Hypotenuse is longer!!!

Tony

Kilkrazy wrote:For example, a Trygon is roughly six inches high. It would be impossible for skimmers to fly over it.

Which isn't really a problem, since you can just go around it instead.

Is this the intention of the rules?

Who knows? GW have never bothered to clarify it, so all we have to go on is what is written in the book.

p83. explains that Jump Infantry and Jetbikes starting or ending their movement in difficult terrain take a dangerous terrain test, and the surviving models are then simply placed within 12" of their starting point, including on a different level of a ruin...

The movement of above mentioned, and skimmers are pretty much similar, when it comes to moving over models or terrain. So why wouldn't the same rules apply to skimmers?

The rules for Jump Infantry and Jetbikes moving in Ruins don't apply to Skimmers because they're specifically for Jump Infantry and Jetbikes... and vehicles follow their own rules for moving in Ruins.

coredump wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:If we accept the 'bent path' method of measurement, it introduces the potential problem of skimmers flying over intervening terrain and units.

For example, a Trygon is roughly six inches high. It would be impossible for skimmers to fly over it. Some shorter models might cause trouble.

Forests might also present a problem if they contain tree models a few inches high.

Is this the intention of the rules?

I don't see why it wouldn't be the intention. They can move 12", they can ignore terrain tests... doesn't mean they can just ignore terrain.

And look at the opposite, the skimmer can only move 12", but has no problem with a 15" wall in its way? That doesn't slow it down at all? So now it can move 32"+?

There should be a difference between 'skimming' 12" and 'teleporting' 12".

Okay, well, you are straying into the realm of "realism" in 40K.

Skimmers can't "only move" 12 inches. The speed of any vehicle is defined as a cautious movement, allowing the crew to keep lookout for enemy vehicles and so on. It probably equates to about 5 miles per hour.

Secondly, there isn't any vertical scale in 40K. You only get 15 "inch" high walls because the models are vertically distorted. IRL life walls, trees and buildings 150 metres high are very rare, so are hills with a gradient even approaching 45 degrees.

From that viewpoint, if the skimmer wants to fly high to get over a tree that's 20 meters tall, why should it be impossible? All it needs to do is speed up a bit for the jump.

I mean, overall, I still don't accept the vertical movement concept, I don't think it is supported by the rules, I don't think it is the intention of the designers, and it don't think it adds to the game. I think skimmers ought to get some real movement advantages over ground vehicles, to reflect the much greater cost.

Kilkrazy wrote:From that viewpoint, if the skimmer wants to fly high to get over a tree that's 20 meters tall, why should it be impossible? All it needs to do is speed up a bit for the jump.

You could argue the same for why the skimmer should be able to 'boost' clear to the other side of the table, though. The Movement phase in 40K represents a finite period of time, in which models can move a set distance. If that means that certain movement winds up being impossible due to the constraints of the arbitrary settings of the movement process, then so be it.

I think skimmers ought to get some real movement advantages over ground vehicles, to reflect the much greater cost.

Which they do, by being immune to Dangerous terrain tests unless they start or finish their movement in terrain, being able to move over other models, and by being able to move over and land in impassable terrain.

insaniak wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:From that viewpoint, if the skimmer wants to fly high to get over a tree that's 20 meters tall, why should it be impossible? All it needs to do is speed up a bit for the jump.

You could argue the same for why the skimmer should be able to 'boost' clear to the other side of the table, though. The Movement phase in 40K represents a finite period of time, in which models can move a set distance. If that means that certain movement winds up being impossible due to the constraints of the arbitrary settings of the movement process, then so be it.

Well, you couldn't, because that's a horizontal move. We're talking about the vertical move the rules don't cover.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Okay, well, you are straying into the realm of "realism" in 40K.

Not so much 'realism' as just measuring. When snipers are on the 4th floor of a ruin, they measure the shot at the angle. When jumppacks are moving to the 3rd floor, they measure at the angle. When determining LoS, it depends on the height of the shooter and target and intervening objects.
This is a 3D game.... otherwise we could use small cardboard chits.

If the skimmer wants to land on the top, we measure and it moves 10". If it wants to get to the bottom, we measure and it moves 10". If it wants to go 'over' the terrain, why should it get to ignore that 20" of movement and pretend it isn't there? That is how teleport works; necrons and Orks can do that, not skimmers.

From that viewpoint, if the skimmer wants to fly high to get over a tree that's 20 meters tall, why should it be impossible? All it needs to do is speed up a bit for the jump.

Sure, and in the rules that is called going Flat Out. Or, it can just go around.

I mean, overall, I still don't accept the vertical movement concept, I don't think it is supported by the rules, I don't think it is the intention of the designers, and it don't think it adds to the game. I think skimmers ought to get some real movement advantages over ground vehicles, to reflect the much greater cost.

I think they *do* get a bunch of advantages. Just being able to skip over terrain is a big deal, they dont' need to be able to teleport through it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kilkrazy wrote:. We're talking about the vertical move the rules don't cover.

But I believe the rules do cover it. It says you can "move 12" ", it gives no statement that is only measured in the horizontal plane, nor only in a straight line. It only states movement...

Kilkrazy wrote:Well, you couldn't, because that's a horizontal move. We're talking about the vertical move the rules don't cover.

But that's just it... the rules do cover it, by giving the model a maximum distance it can move, and not confining the measuring of that distance to the horizontal plane.

Without any rules specifically telling you to ignore the vertical distance, not including it in your measurement is breaking the rule governing how far the vehicle can move. Without rules telling you to do otherwise, measuring how far the unit moves requires you to measure how far the unit actually moves. Not just the horizontal displacement.

Okay... apparently I am invisible. That's fine.