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My friend and I have about two foot tower that we use in our battles, he had a skimmer and it went from the base to the top and it was in 24 inches can he do that move or can that skimmer not fly

As far as I'm aware, the only fast skimmer that is able to move over 18 inches are Dark Eldar vehicles with the enhanced ethersails (sp?) wargear option

Fast vehicles can move flat-out for 18"
Ork Fast vehicles can move flat-out for 19" if they have RPJ
Fast Skimmers can move flat-out for 24"

The DE sails can add 2D6" (not sure if that is added movement or movement in the shooting phase)
Eldar fast skimmers can purchase star engines to move 12" in the shooting phase (total of 36" in one turn)

You'll have to house rule it. There is nothing in the book that limits how "high" a skimmer can move, only how "far". Both the rules you could easily jump up to the top of the tower and count it only as a few inches of movement.

Nungunz wrote:You'll have to house rule it. There is nothing in the book that limits how "high" a skimmer can move, only how "far". Both the rules you could easily jump up to the top of the tower and count it only as a few inches of movement.

This is not precisely true.

The rulebook does limit how high skimmers can move, as the rules don't confine movement measurement to the horizontal plane. So when you move you skimmer (or any other model, for that matter) you should be measuring the actual distance moved, along the model's path of movement.

However, as most (at least from my experience) people tend to play it, skimmers and jump infantry ignore vertical distance when they move. So the skimmer would indeed be capable of just popping up to the top of the tower as it moves.

Pg 83 BRB has some examples on how to move across different heights. It has you measuring from starting position on the ground to where you end up. If you had a unit that could move 24" (tau Pirhanna for example) I'd give you the top of the 24" building. Keep in mind you can't be left floating in mid air.

It depends on how you'd play it, I mean I would personally play that you could just ignore the tower as you moved. Assume the skimmer did a fancy manuver to avoid crashing into it or whatever. There are no real rules covering movement up and down except for the rules about going up and down levels in a building.....so I'd say you'd just have to either house rule or 4+ it.

I don't have my book with me. However, I thought the rulebook states that Skimmers and jump infantry ignore terrain for movement purposes.

Nungunz wrote:You'll have to house rule it. There is nothing in the book that limits how "high" a skimmer can move, only how "far". Both the rules you could easily jump up to the top of the tower and count it only as a few inches of movement.

^^ This.

There is no vertical movement in 40K except when moving up and down levels in ruins, which vehicles can't do anyway.

In other words, as far as the rules are concerned, if the point on the tabletop perpendicularly under the top of a building is within movement distance of a skimmer, it can move up there providing it is physically possible to place the model there. You may need to take a dangerous terrain test.

If it looks stupid to allow skimmers to get on top of very tall buildings, house rule it that they can't.

There IS vertical movement in 40k. Infantry wishing to move up a level in a building need 3" of movement to do so.

That said, in this case a skimmer ignores terrain for the purposes of movement and could move over/through the building with no penalty, however the vertical distance would be ignored in most cases.

In our group though we have solved this problem by setting a limit. Any vertical distance over 3" is measured, anything under 3" is ignored, so if a skimmer want's to hop up on top of a one level building we just ignore any vertical distance, but if it wants to fly up a tower, we measure three dimensionally and see if it can move that far.

megatrons2nd wrote:I don't have my book with me. However, I thought the rulebook states that Skimmers and jump infantry ignore terrain for movement purposes.

Nope. Skimmers are allowed to move over terrain without worrying about difficult and dangerous terrain tests. Nowhere do the rules say that they ignore the terrain, or do not count the vertical distance moved as part of their movement.

The OP seems to want the skimmer to land on top of the building. Is that what everyone is discussing here? Or are you talking about moving through the building?

Aldarionn wrote:There IS vertical movement in 40k. Infantry wishing to move up a level in a building need 3" of movement to do so.

That said, in this case a skimmer ignores terrain for the purposes of movement and could move over/through the building with no penalty, however the vertical distance would be ignored in most cases.

In our group though we have solved this problem by setting a limit. Any vertical distance over 3" is measured, anything under 3" is ignored, so if a skimmer want's to hop up on top of a one level building we just ignore any vertical distance, but if it wants to fly up a tower, we measure three dimensionally and see if it can move that far.

No, they don't. A building is simply a transport. You are either embarked inside it, or not.

Ruins have levels as I said in my post. Ruins are not buildings.

There are no movement rules in the game that take account of the height of things, except the ruins rule.

Your example of measuring three dimensionally is the kind of house rule needed to resolve this difficulty.

Kilkrazy - no rule in the game says you only measure "2D" - they state you measure from base to base, and point out that in ruins this means you measure diagonally.

This doesnt mean that you only measure diagonally while in ruins, just that they are, probably, the most likely occasion you will need to do so.

Kilkrazy wrote:There are no movement rules in the game that take account of the height of things, except the ruins rule.

I see this posted and played, but not in the book.
Otherwise Valkyries would have . . . flown under the radar.

Oh yea.

I went there.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Kilkrazy - no rule in the game says you only measure "2D" - they state you measure from base to base, and point out that in ruins this means you measure diagonally.

This doesnt mean that you only measure diagonally while in ruins, just that they are, probably, the most likely occasion you will need to do so.

Equally, the only rules that say you measure 3D are the Ruins rules, which only apply to infantry entering the ruins and moving vertically within them.

In historical wargames I have played, it is made clear by the rules that vertical movement counts towards movement, and this has various tactical effects.

Indeed, when I have played 40K, it has been normal practice to ignore height except if agreed for specific terrain features at the start of the game.

No rules tell you to ignore height.
They tell you to measure distance to/from bases.

If one base is above another, you need to draw a line that goes up some. Models are not magically closer in 40k than they are on the table.

Normal practice /= de jure Rules.

The rules tell you to measure the distance from the starting position of the base to the end position. there is nothing restricting this to ONLY a 2D plane, so you must measure it in a 3D plane.

Of course unless the angle of incidence between the two planes is significant the actual distance travelled will not vary much compared with the simpler 2D assumption, hence Ruins, where this angle IS significant you are told, explicitly, to measure the diagonal. This is, however, simply evidence of redundancy - not evidence of requirement.

Kilkrazy wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Kilkrazy - no rule in the game says you only measure "2D" - they state you measure from base to base, and point out that in ruins this means you measure diagonally.

This doesnt mean that you only measure diagonally while in ruins, just that they are, probably, the most likely occasion you will need to do so.

Equally, the only rules that say you measure 3D are the Ruins rules, which only apply to infantry entering the ruins and moving vertically within them.

In historical wargames I have played, it is made clear by the rules that vertical movement counts towards movement, and this has various tactical effects.

Indeed, when I have played 40K, it has been normal practice to ignore height except if agreed for specific terrain features at the start of the game.

Well, that's really strange. Height makes a big difference and you need to measure it using 3D.

For example, a model with a pistol standing on top of a building 18" tall wouldn't be able to hit anything on the ground floor.

If you're going to "ignore" the height differences across the board, why bother with that "width" thing either? Wouldn't a 1D game be even simpler?

Grakmar wrote:If you're going to "ignore" the height differences across the board, why bother with that "width" thing either? Wouldn't a 1D game be even simpler?

The hyperbole doesn't really help the argument.


It's a fairly common assumption that measurement in 40K is only supposed to be horizontal. People who go by that intepretation take the fact that all of the examples in the rules only really show horizontal or top-down measurement, aside from certain specific situation, like ruins.


The actual measurement rules just tell us to measure base edge to base edge. Whcih, without anything telling us to ignore height, should include it.

Jump infantry section under movement 3rd sentence: "When using jump packs,they can move over all other models and all terrain freely."

Skimmers section under movement 2nd paragraph 1st sentence: "Skimmers can move over all terrain, ignoring all penalties for difficult terrain and tests for dangerous terrain."

In the last edition there was a sentence mentioning powered boosts over terrain for short distances. It is not present in the new book that I have found.

Since these units "can move over all terrain", I would have to assume they ignore vertical measuring and only apply horizontal measuring.

Being allowed to move over all terrain without penalty doesn't confer the ability to not accurately measure your movement distance. It simply allows them to move over all terrain without the usual penalties... which is an exception to the normal rules, which stop models from moving over impassable terrain, and slow them down when moving through difficult terrain.

Well, here's my view on things.

Let's assume the following situation:

* A Skimmer

A HILL l
A HILL llll
A HILL llllll
A HILL llll
A HILL l

* A Place skimmer wants to move to.

You don't have to measure the distance to the top of the hill, and down the other side. You just measure the distance to the place the skimmer wants to move to.

Or it could be a forest instead of the hill.

That's the way I always play. At the start of the game I go through the terrain pieces with the other guy and we agree on exceptions.

And this is actually how it tells you to move - you measure from the base to base, not the "path" the base has travelled. WHile this is therefore a straight line, it isnt confined to 2 dimensions it can travel through.

nosferatu1001 wrote:And this is actually how it tells you to move - you measure from the base to base, not the "path" the base has travelled. WHile this is therefore a straight line, it isnt confined to 2 dimensions it can travel through.

Agreed. Skimmers ignore terrain, so if you pass "over" a hill, you can basically ignore the height effect on movement distance.

But, if you stop at the top of the hill, you need to measure distance from the base (or hull) of the model on the ground to the base (or hull) of the model at the top of the hill.

Kilkrazy wrote:You don't have to measure the distance to the top of the hill, and down the other side. You just measure the distance to the place the skimmer wants to move to.

And that's where I would disagree. The rules tell us that models can move a certain distance. They don't tell us to measure that distance solely in the horizontal plane. So the rules do require you to measure to the top of the hill and down the other side... because the straight line from start to finish is not the actual distance moved.

Grakmar wrote:Agreed. Skimmers ignore terrain,...

And again, no, they don't. Skimmers 'move over' terrain.

If I ignore obstacles in my path, I go right through them. If I move over obstacles in my path, I move over the top of them. The two terms do not mean the same thing.

Aldarionn wrote:There IS vertical movement in 40k. Infantry wishing to move up a level in a building need 3" of movement to do so.

That said, in this case a skimmer ignores terrain for the purposes of movement and could move over/through the building with no penalty, however the vertical distance would be ignored in most cases.

In our group though we have solved this problem by setting a limit. Any vertical distance over 3" is measured, anything under 3" is ignored, so if a skimmer want's to hop up on top of a one level building we just ignore any vertical distance, but if it wants to fly up a tower, we measure three dimensionally and see if it can move that far.

I thought it was 2" to allow the unit to stay in unit coherancy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grakmar wrote:For example, a model with a pistol standing on top of a building 18" tall wouldn't be able to hit anything on the ground floor.

Gravity

phantommaster wrote:

Aldarionn wrote:I thought it was 2" to allow the unit to stay in unit coherancy.

A level is 3". A model underneath another would be within 2", as the height of the model is considered.

nosferatu1001 wrote:And this is actually how it tells you to move - you measure from the base to base, not the "path" the base has travelled. WHile this is therefore a straight line, it isnt confined to 2 dimensions it can travel through.

I disagree, you must measure the path. You measure from base to base, along the path taken.

Otherwise, consider it in a 2D perspective. A unit on one side of a Land Raider could move all the way around the LR to the other side(9"), then measure in a straight line from start to finish, and be well within the 6" move allowance.

And Nos, where are you getting this 'diagonal' measuring for moving within a ruin??

If it was a skimmer, jetbike, or jump troop unit, then yes, it could go right over a land raider, as those ignore terrain and intervening models when moving. Other models obviously couldn't, but the discussion is specifically about those that can.