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What is funny is that GW sounds like it is a Gamesday for kids, when the golden ticket winners will have better things to do in Vegas after there games are over.

Playing until 2AM? Does GW even know what age the tournament winners are? They must think they are under 21 and need to keep them busy.

Kurgash wrote:So this whole thread is about a lackluster tournament, how one plans on not going but might depending on audience reactions and said audience creating that reaction? Did I miss anything important?

Yeah, you missed the part about where Dash said he wasn't going and why...

*sigh*

Got my email today, nothing has changed from what was previously posted months ago.

Just got my email as well. Looking forward to it, actually. Two of my team mates also have tickets, so we're looking good so far for the team competition.

Blackmoor wrote:What is funny is that GW sounds like it is a Gamesday for kids, when the golden ticket winners will have better things to do in Vegas after there games are over.

Playing until 2AM? Does GW even know what age the tournament winners are? They must think they are under 21 and need to keep them busy.

Better things? Playing some games with buddies and drinking beer is high on my lists of better things to do. A lot of vegas falls into the 'been there, done that' from growing up to close to Reno.

My thoughts exactly... should be an awesome time for those who are able to make it!

That's not to say the format is great (or really, anything other than a pretty big mistake) but it's still a national event drawing high caliber gamers from all over. Pretty awesome... and that should help make up for the unfortunate format.

Just noticed the following in the rules packet posted at:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1640651a_NorthAmerican2011TOSInfoPack.pdf

"• After the first round, you will be paired against
opponents with similar records from round to round, in
accordance to the ‘Swiss System’."

So, over the course of the tournament, you should at least be playing good players or players with a similar score so even if you don't get best overall, you will still have played some good people (ideally). Also, everyone gets an award for doing the best with their respective armies so there is still recognition for top performers regardless IMO.

I am going simply because I have free hotel fair at a nice hotel from sitting through a Time Share presentation, lol so see you guys there whoever is going. Everyone going from Dakka should get together on one of the open gaming nights and game together or hang out!

going to vegas for any event seems wrong. between the drinking and gambling and boobies, I would find it difficult to play well.

I'm surprised none of you all are complaining about playing on RoB tables with the Pre measure issues that the gaps an section divisions that it brings in to play...

For fun games it's ok but turny 40k games, it's just like the red pointy measuring sticks that could be manipulated...

Eh, complaining in general is kinda pointless. Even if everyone stated clearly that they hated the system and didn't attend ... they would just not hold it again, Jervis would not "get the hint" I don't think.

Lots of competitive gamers in one place in Las Vegas ... go have fun and drink booze. No reason to complain or be pissy about it, IMO.

I'm kind of confused by the issue. The event is pretty clearly not what many people were hoping, and due to factors such as time and money aren't worth attending.

I didn't sign up for events at Adepticon this year because I wouldn't have enough vacation, and that's one of the best events in the country. The number of people with both the money to travel, and the vacation time to do so, is pretty small.

That's the general problem here ... there's more competitive "invite-only" style events that a lot of these folks can or will go to ... there's bigger and more well-rounded GT's out there to go to ... so people who are short on funds or vacation are deprioritizing TOS, as it doesn't beat these other events in any category.

If you read Jervis' own commentary, he says things that imply he believes the "average" tournament is more about winning and not caring about your opponents having a good time, or just having fun. The problem is, this shows he doesn't actually know what he's talking about - most of the bigger events like NOVA and Adepticon, Wargamescon, and all the others ... they're every bit concerned with ensuring everyone of all player and hobbyist types have fun at their events ... and go well above and beyond the TOS prep, while also ensuring competitors have more fun ... TOO.

He's chosen to address a demographic with this format that is already being addressed, but then is branding it as if that's not the case. Same thing as when you see ANY "new" GT come out and say things like "we're not about being so hardcore competitive, we want everyone to have fun" ... they just haven't been to the big GT's before, where that happens anyway b/c the organizers care deeply about it.

That all said, what's important here is that if you CAN afford the time and vacation to go, it doesn't really matter if the format isn't your favorite idea of a good time ... there'll be tons of GT-winning players there, and it's in Vegas. This means it can and will be fun regardless of its imperfections or the cluelessness of its designer.

Some rules and info I got clarified:
-100-150 participants in the 40k portion
-All Codex are legal (including DH, WH)
-No allies are allowed to be taken by any army.

MVBrandt wrote:He's chosen to address a demographic with this format that is already being addressed, but then is branding it as if that's not the case. Same thing as when you see ANY "new" GT come out and say things like "we're not about being so hardcore competitive, we want everyone to have fun" ...

I disagree with this second part. It does look like TOS is trying to address a demographic other than it should be, and that is covered by other GTs. However, it still looks pretty awesome, despite the format shortcomings.

About the second part- that's a pretty strong statement. You yourself started a new GT, and came out and said you wanted to have as evaluative an event as possible. That doesn't mean you hadn't gone to other GTs, and decided they weren't at all evaluative- you just thought you could do it in a new/better way.

GTs wanting to address the non "hardcore competitive" scene have every right to come out and try new things, or OLD things, such as super-comp-heavy... and to say so! Imho, there is too much of a trend lately that there is a "best" way to do a GT... whereas a greater variety of events can address a much wider demographic. I appreciate that you bill (and try to organize) your event as one that caters to everyone, but not everyone is going to be completely satisfied with it.

Similarly, clearly not everyone is satisfied with the TOS format... but I'd like to see more variety and people trying new things with GT formats (such as a greater number of lower point level games, like Boss_Salvage was posting about below) and not being pressured to try to satisfy everyone with a single format. It's not really possible, imho- and going for a more specific approach to reach a certain type of gamer is a totally valid way to try to run a GT, or start a new one.

I know this isn't necessarily what you meant- you might just be pointing out that you don't like people inferring that competitive events aren't "fun". But I wanted to make the points, as I'm seeing a trend in those kinds of comments here and elsewhere. It obviously doesn't apply that much in this case, as GW is seemingly shooting a bit wide of the mark for the demographic coming to this tourney... but for other GTs I think using a unique format and shooting for a very specific demographic, even though it won't please everyone, can be a really good thing.

RiTides wrote:

MVBrandt wrote:He's chosen to address a demographic with this format that is already being addressed, but then is branding it as if that's not the case. Same thing as when you see ANY "new" GT come out and say things like "we're not about being so hardcore competitive, we want everyone to have fun" ...

I disagree with this second part. It does look like TOS is trying to address a demographic other than it should be, and that is covered by other GTs. However, it still looks pretty awesome, despite the format shortcomings.

About the second part- that's a pretty strong statement. You yourself started a new GT, and came out and said you wanted to have as evaluative an event as possible. That doesn't mean you hadn't gone to other GTs, and decided they weren't at all evaluative- you just thought you could do it in a new/better way.

GTs wanting to address the non "hardcore competitive" scene have every right to come out and try new things, or OLD things, such as super-comp-heavy... and to say so! Imho, there is too much of a trend lately that there is a "best" way to do a GT... whereas a greater variety of events can address a much wider demographic. I appreciate that you bill (and try to organize) your event as one that caters to everyone, but not everyone is going to be completely satisfied with it.

Similarly, clearly not everyone is satisfied with the TOS format... but I'd like to see more variety and people trying new things with GT formats (such as a greater number of lower point level games, like Boss_Salvage was posting about below) and not being pressured to try to satisfy everyone with a single format. It's not really possible, imho- and going for a more specific approach to reach a certain type of gamer is a totally valid way to try to run a GT, or start a new one.

I know this isn't necessarily what you meant- you might just be pointing out that you don't like people inferring that competitive events aren't "fun". But I wanted to make the points, as I'm seeing a trend in those kinds of comments here and elsewhere. It obviously doesn't apply that much in this case, as GW is seemingly shooting a bit wide of the mark for the demographic coming to this tourney... but for other GTs I think using a unique format and shooting for a very specific demographic, even though it won't please everyone, can be a really good thing.

My issue with this logic is this: TOS doesn't have the right (or shouldn't) to change the format to this. I know this sounds a bit high and mighty, but it's how I've felt since winning my invite, and then getting the packet. This tournament is the crowning of the Indy GT circuit. They let the Indy GT TO's define what the events would be like, what the format would be. Participants that attended these events and paid hard earned money, competed, and won, did so because they wanted to take part in the format created by the Indy GT's. The majority of which are a far far cry from what the TOS is.

This isn't a one-off or an independent GT, if it was, I would vote with my wallet and just not attend, no sweat. It's their event, and they can run it as they see fit. But this isn't their event, this is the end of a circuit that I'm (and many others) already invested in, and it's not true to the format thats been defining this season.

I'm all for a variety of GT's, it enriches the hobby and caters to a wider audience. But the capstone event needs to be reflective of the tenor of the season, and the TOS is just a shot out of left field.

Targetawg, while I share much of your sentiment, I have to disagree about the idea that there is any one format that has "been defining this season."

There have been a variety of formats on the circuit this season. Some with soft scores factored in with battle, some not. Some with battle points, a few strict win/loss. Some events awarded the top 2 Overall slots tickets, some the top Overall and Best General. Etc.

When there has been a fair amount of variation in the events feeding into the final, I don't think one can legitimately be upset that the final doesn't match any one of those feeder events. And it IS their event. They made no comments and may have had no particular plans about the format of the event when they made the arrangement to award tickets. I know a lot of folks got really excited about it and amped up, but it is GW we're talking about; there's never been any reasonable expectation that they would run the event any particular way.

That being said, I do still agree (as I've stated repeatedly) that this format has some problems and could be substantially better and more satisfying than it presently is.

I'm going to the ToS in Vegas... well because it is Las Vegas.

Go with a few buds a few days early and party it out in Vegas. Hang out with players from around the US? Game with beautiful armies? Play in a 40k tournament? Great weekend!

I went to the TOS in the UK and found that people weren't any more nice or pleasant with each other (at least genuinely) than any other tournament. The only difference being:

- The overall winner probably played more people he knew/came to the event with (got 4/5 fave army votes) than the other players who won 5 out of 5
- I came second in Ork catagory as my opponant's army list 'looked nicer' :-s

The former point I'm ok with. I signed up and understand the rules, even if in retrospect I think it's daft that I went when I'm such a competitive (but friendly) player.

The latter was the point I really didn't get. It was a subjective opinion of the judge on the fluff and looks of the list that decided who got the certificate (which i really wanted!).

The bottom line IMO is that people go to ToS because it's seen as an 'official' GW tourney - and therefore has more gravitas. I think if anyone else organised a similar format tourney it would get laughed off the stage.

We can play friendly games in our local clubs and stores. Why waste the opportunity for a good old proper tournament. I don't want to attend a popularity contest.

What I dont understand is why you have to respond and reserve you spot by Feb. 14th or whatever. Are they not still giving away seats for this event?

I went to the first GT in Vegas for the same reasons that some will want to go to this one - It's in Vegas and Vegas is a fun place.

Is it the best place for 'this' sort of pageant? I don't think so.

I will not be using my invite BUT I have sort of gone back and forth with it because this is a GW true sposorned event and the winners will probably get a lot of attention in White Dwarf or on the website or whatever. Not even that is a sure thing though. GW has promised glamour and glitz to winners before and it has never materialized. At the GTs I've won or placed I have never even had a picture taken of my army to publish anywhere in any of their media outlets.


I got an email saying they were extending the deadline for people to take advantage of their golden tickets until next monday. Then they will open them up to the next people on the list.

I like that meals are included, which is a cool throwback to the first one I ever attended, back in 2001.

The 2 for 1 drink specials in the (apparently attached to the hall) lounge also sound good.

If I still lived close enough to drive I'd be there. Just for fun. But since I'd have to fly back, pay a cabbie to go anywhere or pay to rent a car, and then add in the cost of the hotel stays it's just not worth it. I'd rather spend that traveling money to hit up WargamesCon or an extra eastcoast or westcoast event this year (already hitting Nova, Adepticon, and Bugeater).

I never got my invitation in the mail? We were supposed to reserve a spot by the 14th?

Neither did I but I e-mailed ED and he confirmed me.
EdS@games-workshop.com or ThroneofSkulls@games-workshop.com

Yeah, I'll forward you the original and the latest email when I get home Reece. That way you've got the packet too. You've got till monday now to confirm for the event.

I am actually not even seeing the tournament I won my golden ticket in on the list of events....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And thanks Brad and Dave, I will touch base with Ed and see what's up.

Email him your name and the name of the event at which you won your ticket.

Yeah I did, the TO said that GW misplaced the info and is working on it now. All seems to be well.

Do you get a trophy for showing up? I would give you guys one.

I'll be there.

The 2008 GWGT was a very well run tourney. Great looking tables, massive venue with great ventilation. Staying in the same hotel as the actual venue means just taking an elevator ride from your room right to the event.

Ice water and glasses provided by the hotel in the event itself. Catered lunches and dinners by the hotel.

I'm expecting the same spread, only this time the attendees will be limited to experienced and successful tournament players who are versed in resolving rules issues and are used to being social with people they haven't met before?

The format and the path to victory are completely at odds with my gaming philosophy... but I also enjoy a hobby weekend event on occasion. And my experience with GW and Las Vegas has been glowingly positive. I'm just going to play and have fun, and I have little doubt that there are going to be any obstacles to that.