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I've made no secret of my disgust that I worked so hard to earn what turns out to be a worthless reward, and so I got this e-mail today from Ed Spettigue at GW. Tournament announcements and rule packets have been sent!

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Hi Justin,
At least give it a look over. You might like what you see.
Thanks
Ed



Greetings!

As a top finisher in one of the events held under the 2010-2011 Games Workshop Tournament Circuit, you have earned a spot at our Throne of Skulls Tournament, which will be held June 17th - 19th at the Tropicana Hotel in Las Vegas, NV.

Travel arrangements to and from the event and lodging will be up to you, but we have reserved a block of rooms in the Tropicana at a discounted rate of $55 for Thursday and Sunday night, and $89 for Friday and Saturday night. Hotel reservation info can be found at the bottom of this email.

On to the Tournament itself! Below are just some of the exciting events and activities we have planned for you. See the attached document for extensive information about these events, the rules and more!

• A two day, 5 round, tournament on the Strip of Fabulous Las Vegas!

• Top notch terrain in the form of beautifully painted Realm of Battle Boards and Citadel Scenery

• A Team Challenge sub contest that gets you and others working collaboratively towards an exclusive prize

• Scenario Gaming into the wee hours as we keep the gaming hall open until 2am on Friday and Saturday!

• A Hero Painting Competition to see who has the best looking Army General

• An all-materials-provided, Conversion Contest with prizes for the both the best built, and best painted creations

• The return of the ever-popular Games Workshop Pub Quiz with drink specials ongoing

• An opportunity to meet and challenge the best Games Workshop players in North America!

• Extensive online and printed coverage of the event, the great looking armies, and all the winners

• Loads of prizes, memories, and fun to be had!
As a qualifier for this event, you are entitled to all the above. We hope you’re as excited about this event as we are. Now, what we need from you is a confirmation as to whether or not you will be attending. Please let us know your intentions soon, so if you’re not able to make it, we can move down the list of alternates and give other folks a chance to attend this exclusive event.

Please read over the attached info, talk it over with friends and family and let us know if you’re attending or not by February 14th.

Do so by sending an email with your name, the event you qualified for the tournament at, and whether or not you’re attending to:

ThroneofSkulls@games-workshop.com
We look forward to hearing from you, and we hope to see you for some great gaming in Vegas!

Games Workshop North America
Promotions Team


Hotel Reservation Deadline Monday, May 16th, 2011

Telephone: Reservations can be telephoned in directly by calling 1-800-634-4000

Online Reservations: https://res.tropicanalv.com/CGIBIN/LANSAWEB?WEBEVENT+R036EE5685899B600449B041+R15+ENG

In order to receive the Group Rate callers must identify their affiliation with the THRONE OF SKULLS TOURNAMENT.

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There was also an attached .pdf with the schedule, picture of some people playing Warhammer Fantasy, and rules along with pictures of sample tables and an outline of what terrain will be on tables in what variation.

Do you plan on attending?

I really torn on going.

I like Vegas.. I like the idea of a 'gw sponsored national level tournament' but I hate the idea of this pageant being called a tournament.

extrenm(54) wrote:Do you plan on attending?

I do not; my traveling is reserved for tournaments and Grand Tournaments - I don't feel like this qualifies as one.

Dashofpepper wrote:

extrenm(54) wrote:Do you plan on attending?

I do not; my traveling is reserved for tournaments and Grand Tournaments - I don't feel like this qualifies as one.

So you don't like playing 40k, you like winning?

rodgers37 wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:

extrenm(54) wrote:Do you plan on attending?

I do not; my traveling is reserved for tournaments and Grand Tournaments - I don't feel like this qualifies as one.

So you don't like playing 40k, you like winning?

So you don't like posting, you like trolling?

Just kidding, but seriously, you'd go a long way to just stop trying to bait people. Dash stated that he travels for GT's and Tourneys, the way the format is, it is not a competitive tourney. It will appeal to some people, it won't to others. The issue is more that the people with invites are ones that have won, by and large, very competitive GT's. If those people are your target audience, why would you make a games-day esque event for them? It's like taking all the baseball teams that made the post-season and saying "alright, you won your divisions and are in the post-season, we've got a brutal dizzy bat competition lined up for you guys, so bring your A-game".

Please keep the discussion polite and carefully consider whether one-liners really contribute anything to a discussion anyway.

targetawg wrote:

rodgers37 wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:

extrenm(54) wrote:Do you plan on attending?

I do not; my traveling is reserved for tournaments and Grand Tournaments - I don't feel like this qualifies as one.

So you don't like playing 40k, you like winning?

So you don't like posting, you like trolling?

Just kidding, but seriously, you'd go a long way to just stop trying to bait people. Dash stated that he travels for GT's and Tourneys, the way the format is, it is not a competitive tourney. It will appeal to some people, it won't to others. The issue is more that the people with invites are ones that have won, by and large, very competitive GT's. If those people are your target audience, why would you make a games-day esque event for them? It's like taking all the baseball teams that made the post-season and saying "alright, you won your divisions and are in the post-season, we've got a brutal dizzy bat competition lined up for you guys, so bring your A-game".

OMG this is exactly the analogy I was looking for

That is a very appropriate analogy. What's more, the Dizzy Bat competition WOULD BE VERY COMPETITIVE, because it would be comprised of a bunch of very competitive people, BUT it would not be competitively EVALUATIVE, which is the problem with Throne of Skulls.

It actually harms ALL gamer types b/c it doesn't evaluate anything ... it just has a bunch of people competing against each other. You really can't put any stock in who they give the prizes to at the end, even if the event itself is made competitive by the uniform caliber of the participants. Bunches of hardcore competitive 40k players participating in dizzy bat will be hardcore competitive dizzy bat, but it's still dizzy bat ... so a lot of them may not even bother attending.

MVBrandt wrote:That is a very appropriate analogy. What's more, the Dizzy Bat competition WOULD BE VERY COMPETITIVE, because it would be comprised of a bunch of very competitive people, BUT it would not be competitively EVALUATIVE, which is the problem with Throne of Skulls.

It actually harms ALL gamer types b/c it doesn't evaluate anything ... it just has a bunch of people competing against each other. You really can't put any stock in who they give the prizes to at the end, even if the event itself is made competitive by the uniform caliber of the participants. Bunches of hardcore competitive 40k players participating in dizzy bat will be hardcore competitive dizzy bat, but it's still dizzy bat ... so a lot of them may not even bother attending.

But they would Drink at the event : )

targetawg wrote:

rodgers37 wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:

extrenm(54) wrote:Do you plan on attending?

I do not; my traveling is reserved for tournaments and Grand Tournaments - I don't feel like this qualifies as one.

So you don't like playing 40k, you like winning?

So you don't like posting, you like trolling?

Just kidding, but seriously, you'd go a long way to just stop trying to bait people. Dash stated that he travels for GT's and Tourneys, the way the format is, it is not a competitive tourney. It will appeal to some people, it won't to others. The issue is more that the people with invites are ones that have won, by and large, very competitive GT's. If those people are your target audience, why would you make a games-day esque event for them? It's like taking all the baseball teams that made the post-season and saying "alright, you won your divisions and are in the post-season, we've got a brutal dizzy bat competition lined up for you guys, so bring your A-game".

I realise than in US, you are going to be paying a lot for travelling (I paid £50 for a anytime return train to get to Nottingham.....), and for a non-competitve tournament, the cost might be too much. But i just really enjoyed when i went this weekend, and think its worth going to, its more likely to attract people with 'nicer' armies to play against, not saying that people with so called 'tournament armies' can't have nice armies as well. But some of the better painted/converted etc armies tend to be not quite as good in game, but that may also be down to player being more of a painted than player.

And to Manchu, my post probably wasn't very useful, but i do want to know why he doesn't want to go to the Throne of Skulls, if he's rejecting it because its not uber competitive, i just thought thats a bit silly (although i didn't think of the cost of travel across states etc)

MVBrandt wrote:That is a very appropriate analogy. What's more, the Dizzy Bat competition WOULD BE VERY COMPETITIVE, because it would be comprised of a bunch of very competitive people, BUT it would not be competitively EVALUATIVE, which is the problem with Throne of Skulls.

It actually harms ALL gamer types b/c it doesn't evaluate anything ... it just has a bunch of people competing against each other. You really can't put any stock in who they give the prizes to at the end, even if the event itself is made competitive by the uniform caliber of the participants. Bunches of hardcore competitive 40k players participating in dizzy bat will be hardcore competitive dizzy bat, but it's still dizzy bat ... so a lot of them may not even bother attending.

Not every event has to be "evaluative". If I get an enjoyable weekend of playing five games against the cream of the crop (top players, top painters) in Vegas, I'm getting most of the things I want out of an event. I'm not in it for prizes. And while I like a "real" competitive event too, I don't get angry or disgusted by a lesser event. I'm surprised that Dash isn't interested, given his stated preferences. He's repeatedly and firmly expressed that he doesn't play for prizes; he plays to meet and face players who can beat him/give him a challenge. And this event seems to have a high likelihood of offering that.

I forsee Dash going to this event event in the end. of course it has to have the propper amount of drama first (like several threads to the tune of ToS is all kinds of booty). It sounds like a fun few days of Vegas, 40k, and top notch players from around the U.S.

Grimgob wrote:(not a Troll) just getting that out of the way now so I can put out my opinion with out being attacked. I forsee Dash going to this event even in the end. of course it has to have the propper amount of drama first (like several threads to the tune of ToS is all kinds of booty). It sounds like a fun few days of Vegas, 40k, and top notch players from around the U.S.

Announcing that you aren't a troll followed by trolling doesn't make your disclaimer true. Hrm. I thought you had been permanently removed from Dakka for all your previous trolling of me, but it was apparently temporary. Wish you'd learn.

But no, I am not attending. I probably have enough frequent flyer miles to go mostly free, the hotel stay would definitely be free, either because of perks at the Hard Rock Casino, or because of my priority club status....

But I get two weeks of vacation per year, and I would like to use it the best way that I can. Not every tournament I go to has to be hyper-competitive - and in fact, I attend a number of events that are just good opportunities to toss dice and socialize. I drove 2.5 hours each way this past weekend for a day of socializing and gaming. However, I'm not flying/driving/hotel in any combination to an event that I don't aspire to win. That's it - there would be no feeling accomplishment for winning this, so I have no aspiration to try. I'd rather get in two days of gaming and spend my travel funds going to something I respect, and aspire to win at.

Mannahnin wrote:

MVBrandt wrote:That is a very appropriate analogy. What's more, the Dizzy Bat competition WOULD BE VERY COMPETITIVE, because it would be comprised of a bunch of very competitive people, BUT it would not be competitively EVALUATIVE, which is the problem with Throne of Skulls.

It actually harms ALL gamer types b/c it doesn't evaluate anything ... it just has a bunch of people competing against each other. You really can't put any stock in who they give the prizes to at the end, even if the event itself is made competitive by the uniform caliber of the participants. Bunches of hardcore competitive 40k players participating in dizzy bat will be hardcore competitive dizzy bat, but it's still dizzy bat ... so a lot of them may not even bother attending.

Not every event has to be "evaluative". If I get an enjoyable weekend of playing five games against the cream of the crop (top players, top painters) in Vegas, I'm getting most of the things I want out of an event. I'm not in it for prizes. And while I like a "real" competitive event too, I don't get angry or disgusted by a lesser event. I'm surprised that Dash isn't interested, given his stated preferences. He's repeatedly and firmly expressed that he doesn't play for prizes; he plays to meet and face players who can beat him/give him a challenge. And this event seems to have a high likelihood of offering that.

I really couldn't agree with you more. My point is hardly that non-evaluative events are bad. Competition and fun aren't only accomplished by having a format that gives you a "clear-cut" (parentheses for the obvious opinionation) winner, but by the caliber and personality of the people you play with. The problem with TOS-Vegas is NOT that it isn't evaluative, it's that it isn't evaluative for the Indie Circuit FINALS.

So if you're suggesting that you don't think the finals for a tournament circuit should fairly evaluate something, maybe we disagree. IF you're just saying every event doesn't need to be evaluative, we're in violent agreement, good sir.

Thanks, Mike. I think we are largely on the same page.

I, too, would prefer an actual "final", rather than what we're getting from the current ToS format. I don't think it's awful, but there's too high a chance of a winner who doesn't have the record they should.

targetawg wrote: It's like taking all the baseball teams that made the post-season and saying "alright, you won your divisions and are in the post-season, we've got a brutal dizzy bat competition lined up for you guys, so bring your A-game".

You're acting like that wouldn't be the greatest sporting event of all time. Also, its nothing like that because people with Golden Tickets got them by playing 40k, and unless I'm terribly mistaken, will be playing 40k at the ToS.

As to the ToS, it sounds like a hell of a lot of fun to me.

I'm a little confussed as how is the throne of skulls not competitive? Their are awards for all of the normal things, people will be trying to bring their A games and armies in the hopes of winning that trophey. I'm just a little lost here so could Dash or somone who does these a lot explain to me how this one is not competitive. I am only recently getting back into the tourney scene as I used to do GT's several times a year(the GW sponsored and indy ones).

The problem is the way the overall winner is chosen. It's based on how you do in relation to other members of your codex and favorite opponent votes account for 25% of the maximum points available. And in the event of a tie the best presented army list wins! This is why most people have such a large problem with it. So many uncontrollable variables that you can't even affect determine the winner.

Here ya go…

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/340851.page

Polonius wrote:

vhwolf wrote:So does every system. So do dice. I used data from 4 years of tournaments and come up with similar results. The truth is anyone can try to game any tournament system so does this mean that none should be played??

I think that building a system that creates the possiblity of a result that most people would find unsatisfactory is inherently flawed. Creating a system where the actions of others (best opponent votes, other players from the same codex) have a huge impact on a player's score also limits the extent to which each player controls their own destiny.

Ian Sturrock wrote:Precisely -- the system as outlined violates the Perceivable Consequence tool. Gamers hate that, because they instinctively recognise it as poor design.

http://www.ludism.org/gamedesign/PerceivableConsequences

Manchu wrote:Please keep the discussion polite and carefully consider whether what you contribute really adds anything to a discussion anyway.

The politeness aspect is something we ask and expect..(well... alright, hope for) from all posters. If you're making a point then you probably don't need to include a snide comment or a jibe at another poster, your points are, I'm sure, quite capable of standing on their own merit.

The overall winner of the tournament may not necessarily (probably won't be) the best player overall...
If someone wins 5 games, but all the other people with that army do well, meaning the overall average was high... But someone wins 3 games, but everyone else with that army losses all their games, despite losing two games, would be overall winner because their overall score was higher than the average of other people with the same army....
(that may not actually make sense )

The SW player won here in UK, but there were other players with more wins, but the Space Wolf Average was quite low....

I've never even been suspended from these forums once Dash (a contrary opinion is not always an attack). I give my opinion and it is not to incite anger in you either. I believe you'll end up going, how is this a troll? I wont even go into your jabs because I'm not trying to start a fight with you. I just think once the Drama stage is set you'll end up going anyways.

Grimgob wrote:I've never even been suspended from these forums once Dash (a contrary opinion is not always an attack). I give my opinion and it is not to incite anger in you either. I believe you'll end up going, how is this a troll? I wont even go into your jabs because I'm not trying to start a fight with you. I just think once the Drama stage is set you'll end up going anyways.

Counter opinions are fine, but you don't need to help build the drama stage that you'd like to see. You saying something like, "Dash will go once the proper drama has been created," is no less flamebait than me saying, "Well, Grimgob will probably end up going to XXX event because they'll tolerate him," or "Well, since no one with a decent army is attending XXX event, Grimgob will probably show up." There's simply no need for that kind of animosity, especially when your "counter-claim" as you put it is a half-subtle statement that I'm lying about my intentions.

Why don't you delete all your references to me in this thread, so that I can happily delete all my responses to them, and then we can continue about Dakka our separate ways. I'd been told you were suspended from Dakka after the ridiculous personal attacks you had made in another thread (one of your army list threads), and I've dutifully ignored you ever since.

Peace and ignore?

Mannahnin wrote: I'm surprised that Dash isn't interested, given his stated preferences. He's repeatedly and firmly expressed that he doesn't play for prizes; he plays to meet and face players who can beat him/give him a challenge. And this event seems to have a high likelihood of offering that.

Guys, please leave the personal discussion about individual posters to PMs.

Mannahnin wrote:

Mannahnin wrote: I'm surprised that Dash isn't interested, given his stated preferences. He's repeatedly and firmly expressed that he doesn't play for prizes; he plays to meet and face players who can beat him/give him a challenge. And this event seems to have a high likelihood of offering that.

You are correct in why I play, but I disagree on your assessment that this event seems to have a likelihood of gathering players who can challenge me. Golden Tickets have been generally awarded to two categories of players: Best Overall/Hobbyist/Ren. Man vs. Best General

1. From the multiple threads that have been kicked around, it seems that the former finds this an interesting event, and the latter do not.

2. I have a "checklist" of all the golden ticket winners that I know and respect (there are many more, this is just the ones I know or know of), and none of them are going, with the possible exception of two....who may or may not. And I have access to those particular two over Vassal for gaming.

3. The format for the tournament doesn't necessarily mean that I'll be slated against decent opponents, so there's no guarantee that even if I did go, I'd face off against a progressively tough field.

4. There *IS* however a tournament that is going to do those things, and pair off the best of the best.....and the *really good* players aren't boycotting it as a useless waste of time. The Nova Invitational is in August, and I've already met the entry requirements and paid for my slot. I expect this tournament to be what the GW Invitational *SHOULD* have been. And when I finish with the invitational, I'll be in the 256 person GT the following two days. 8 rounds of swiss pairing, only one undefeated player at the end of the GT....that's what I want too.

But a hobby day with the potential of running into a decent gamer or two? Nah.

So this whole thread is about a lackluster tournament, how one plans on not going but might depending on audience reactions and said audience creating that reaction? Did I miss anything important?

The format sounds so, so, so gakky considering this was billed as the TOURNAMENT OF CHAMPIONS!!!

But it isn't. It is a comped (subversively comped), soft score heavy, politics fest with all kinds of subjective determinants.

This is NOT a contest of champions, it is a games day.

Games days are fine, and fun. But they should not be billed as the capping event to the indie tournament scene. That is lame.

I'll go if my friends go. Just for Vegas and 40K, but I won't take it all that seriously.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Kurgash

Yes you did, it seems. This was announced as THE tournament, sponsored by GW, which would only be open to those who won a tournament and were the best players.

It won't be that.

We were mislead, probably unintentionally, which is why we are not super excited about it.

So do we get emails or a package? I have neither.