Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The best case would be three Wrecked vehicles, would it not? That's something else to mention about Venom Cannons, they're almost ideal for destroying transport vehicles that you have surrounded by infantry to prevent emergency bail out. Best case is rare though. On average though you'll damage a vehicle, which is pretty handy if that's a Chimera filled with Plasma-armed Veterans or such.

So you are saying that a gun, that is a small blast, is great at hurting vehicles? You do realize that small blasts scatter right. like most of the time? You also realize that when you fully surround a vehicle, and said small blast scatters, you probably hit your own models?

I am not trying to dog on a tactic that has been successful for you, but I have tried this myself, it doesn't work.

The Heavy Venom Cannon, even fielded in mass, is basically a "well I hope I hit" gun. Carnifexes, taking the ridiculous amount of missile launcher spam, the typical IG gun line, and Jaws of the World Wolf out of the equation, are only BS 3. Which means that when the die scatters (and it will 66% of the time) that the average scatter will be 4", which is just enough to take the center hole of the vehicle?

If you want to do surround tactics, why not just assault the vehicles with adrenal gland small bugs. Gargoyles are extremely good at doing this. A unit of 20 will put 40 str. 4 attacks on rear armor 10, and the beauty of this is that you can never wreck or explode it. You simple put 3 weapon destroyed/ immobilized results on a rhino, or more with a Chimera, and wrecked by default lands in your favor. Now I don't have to worry about the Venom cannon scattering on to my guys or if I *gasp* actually explode a vehicle with the VC.

Just IMHO, the Heavy Venom Cannon is too unreliable. And this is after my own extensive play test on the subject. It's only good use is the Harpy, but that is because it is twin-linked on a choice that doesn't compete with other options.

The Fragile Breath wrote:I'm asking this because my friend now pretty much refuses to play his Orks because it's so much easier to win with IG, but he doesn't want to pit his IG against my DE, so I guess I'm just looking for a way to get past wanting to quit the entire hobby every time my Tyranids are pitted against his IG.

WTF? Why?

Mahu wrote:Hive Commander is a nice ability, but will be negated by the Officer of the Fleet.

I do, in fact, use hive commander first for outflanking that tervigon, ever.
Second as a counter-measure against the Officer of the Fleet or similar. If there's no one there to counter, then +1 to reserves, yippie!.

Mahu wrote:Heavy Venom Cannons, as have been stated elsewhere, are over priced and not worth the points you spend on them. Even if the option was free, I wouldn't take them. I recently played against a Tyranid player in a tournament who fielded a HVC, it didn't hit once, and then I shot it off the table. You are basically paying for a str. 9 ap - shot that only is accurate a third of the time. And you are usually paying a premium for that. There are so many better tactics at shaking/stunning tanks, that it is unnecessary.

ABSOLUTELY AGREE word by word except, perhaps HVC's AP, it's 4, if not already FAQ'd off... (not that it isn't unreliable already )

If I'm playing a foot swarm army with a Hive Tyrant I'll usually spring for one Heavy Venom Cannon on him as more of a 'well maybe it will work' thing. He doesn't really do a whole lot the first few turns marching across the field other than watch his Tyrant Guards get blown up so I'll shoot him first every phase and take it as a 'maybe I'll shake/stun, maybe I won't' gamble.

This talk of spamming Heavy Venoms using carnifexes or even using regular venoms on Warriors/Primes? That's just plain bad.

Mahu:

Yeah, I realize that small blasts scatter, and I'm not that worried about it. With BS3 you can roll up to 4 on the scatter dice - A 1" deviation isn't a problem on most vehicles, especially the long sides of a Chimera. That's a 0.16 or +1 on 1D6. You're basically rolling a 4+ to hit, and the chance of collateral damage to the creatures you have mobbing his armour from explosions is less than the chance of a little friendly fire. Plus Imperial Guard tend to promote a target-rich environment.

So I don't disagree with swamping vehicles with masses of small creatures and hence masses of small dice. I like having those shots so my little bugs can get past stuff like Hellhounds, or find an immobilized Leman Russ to attack, or charge the contents of destroyed Chimeras. I agree with using Venom Cannons in concert with your other guns, your hordes, and a strategy of deployment denial.

Now I don't play Tyranids, but wouldn't a Venomthrope or two be useful or the 5+ cover save across the board?

Venomthropes have to compete with borderline mandatory units like hive guard and zoanthropes, since there's no reliable anti tank in the heavy units list.

For those saying to get the entire army on the table, would that include zoanthropes? I had planned to put them in reserve with spores, so I could guarantee at least one lance shot at the enemy tanks (plus the spores act as wonderful fire magnets if I put venom cannons on them, though I haven't figured out why).

Zoantrhropes should never not be podded. A walking Zoey is slow and short range. He's not presenting an immediate 'in your face' threat to the opponent and that means he's low enough on the priority list that your Zoeys will get torrented down with mid-strength weapons. This wastes a lot of the potential. One you've got multiple turns where you're not lancing the really important armor while walking and two you're not bouncing las/plas/melta/missile str 8+ spam off a 3+ invul. When you drop them right up the enemy's tail pipe with a pod suddenly he has got to deal with them RIGHT NOW OH GOD MY VEHICLES AAAAAH and then he's diverting all that Str stupid AP-don't-bother off of your monstrous creatures to try to instant kill that 3++.

Terminus wrote:WTF? Why?

Because Dark Lance spam is amazing against such a vehicle heavy army. Dark Eldar are very flexible and can have some units wreck vehicles while Splinter weapons eat infantry alive.

The game didn't happen tonight, but I've gotten some insight on what he might do against me. Also, since it's a common request, we play at 1500 points.

I still don't understand, it's not like you're playing for money. So he just likes playing against lists he dominates?

Lame.

Some of these pieces of advice (Mahu and others) have been very enlightening. As an IG player I'm getting a little worried.

Also, I agree with Terminus. Refusing to play against an army becuase they might beat you is very poor sportsmanship. It sounds like this guy is doing his best to pick his battles against weaker armies and keep up his Win streak.

Since we're talking about DS Trygons, I would like some insight when it comes to Mawlocs. Wouldn't these work well against a IG mech list? Assuming you get to go first, you can burrow them first turn and spring up right in the middle of the IG tanks next turn, and always hit their rear armor with a S6. And the IG can't leave em alone so that's a distraction from your other units. Now DS can be very unrelieble, but if the IG player keeps a tight formation that shouldn't be a problem right? Note that I've yet to play with or against Tyranids, so I'm just theorising, but has anyone tried this tactic?

Limbo wrote:Since we're talking about DS Trygons, I would like some insight when it comes to Mawlocs. Wouldn't these work well against a IG mech list? Assuming you get to go first, you can burrow them first turn and spring up right in the middle of the IG tanks next turn, and always hit their rear armor with a S6. And the IG can't leave em alone so that's a distraction from your other units. Now DS can be very unrelieble, but if the IG player keeps a tight formation that shouldn't be a problem right? Note that I've yet to play with or against Tyranids, so I'm just theorising, but has anyone tried this tactic?

Mawloks are only horrifyingly powerful in vehicle-parking-lot situations where you can deep strike it, and if it hits the vehicle cant be placed outside the blast template and is removed.
The only vehicles that really are at risk of this are land raiders, and they don't need to be "screened" against tyranids.
They would be much more powerful if lictors were more useful of if they could be used with the death lepers "place anywhere" ability, but they can't.

The really big danger with using Mawlocs to snipe parking lots is that most times you want to use him to pick on the artillery and other keep-away vehicles. The stuff that wants to get in your face will find Hive Guards and monstrous creatures waiting to dine on the tasty rear armor. Artillery and the like are typically placed as far as they can possibly get from you. Like, in a corner with a unit or two of infantry meat-shielding to prevent you from getting to it too easily. Deep striking a Mawloc right into the corner of the table is really dangerous because mishaps suck.