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Yes, yes. One of those threads.

Now, I'm primarily a Tyranid player, I've started DE which I think should be able to break my friend's IG winning streak, but I'm also interested in getting in a victory for the Hive Mind.

Normally I run a Genestealer heavy army with Zoanthropes, Doom, Hive Guard, a Trygon, some Shrikes, and some Devourer Termagants for flavor. Would I need to seriously shake up my list to be able to do well against a vehicle heavy IG army, am I playing horribly wrong, or is there just no hope of beating IG as Tyranids? Yeah, I highly doubt the last one, just thought I'd throw it in for fun.

I'm asking this because my friend now pretty much refuses to play his Orks because it's so much easier to win with IG, but he doesn't want to pit his IG against my DE, so I guess I'm just looking for a way to get past wanting to quit the entire hobby every time my Tyranids are pitted against his IG.

My suggestion, beat them Guard at their own game. Throw more men at it! ASSAULT EVERYTHING!

outflanking and infiltrating is your freind

especially when they are heavy in artillery and heavy weapon squads, basically immobile stuff

Now this is a thread I can sink my teeth into. We'll need a better list of what your opponent uses and what tactics he employs. Telling you to Infiltrate or Outflank against an AV12 spam player is useless, as he has the mobility to deal with it. On the flip side, if he has a good contingent of Russes, you'll put him on the back foot.

In general, Mech IG has static elements, be it Russes or artillery. (If he's exclusively using his Fast Attack for his big guns, this advice won't help much.) What you could do is a bull's horns maneuver. If you get the Swarm Lord, some Tervigons and other MCs, you can form a sturdy spearhead. The horns in this case would be your Stealers, Shrikes and Zoanthropes (in a Spod), gaining +1 to their reserve rolls from the Swarm Lord. Your horns keep his big guns moving, or at least not shooting at your spearhead, and then you walk over him with your MCs.

You're going to struggle against the shootiest book in the game without the flesh to absorb the punishment. Still, if you can't afford to pick up 4-5 MCs (and I wouldn't blame you), there are things you can do. Not Deepstriking or Outflanking anything is one of them. You need all your bodies on the table to absorb his shooting so that something makes it to his end the table.

Don't Infiltrate your Gene-stealers next to his army just because you hope you can get a turn 2 charge. Use Infiltrate to control space, and restrict his movement (obviously he won't move towards the 20 Stealers hanging out in the ruins). Stealers are not strong enough against Mech to go it alone; funnel him to where the rest of your army is, or block him if he tries to make a run for it, but wait for the rest of the army. Shrikes should plug gaps in your Stealer picket line. If you don't have Rending Claws on them, proxy it because they need to be able to open vehicles.

Keep the rest of your army together, no matter what. Place objectives as far forward as you can. If you don't have to worry about a backfield objective, you can focus on pushing him.

Your assuming hes using mech spam, if he is immobile (most guard armies are a mix), there will presumably be immobile vunerable points in a mixxed list. Basically avoid all mobility he has like chimeras and vets for example.

Mind you, only that second paragraph won't be useful if he's got a mixed list. The rest of the advice is just tactical sense.

Now, why on Earth would you avoid his Chimeras? You don't want to charge them unless you have another squad ready to scoop up that which fall out, sure, but flat out avoiding them?

Well as you said if the opponent has chimeras and most things mobile on one side and he leaves some immobile or really vunerable units on another, you'd probably want to go after them and avoid things that are mobile for infiltrators or outflanking units so the enemy (ig) cannot respond as fast as hed like to and if he does he might leave an avenue open to charge into, this pairs really well with next tactic. To put only 1/2 or maybe less than half of the infiltrating, outflanking etc. squad in combat and leave the other half or more out to ensure that you will remain in combat for more than 1 turn making your infiltrators more likely to cause havoc long term and maybe freak your opponent out causing him to either put more resources in just 1 spot or move away, either way you can manipulate your opponents position.

Try this thread:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/342124.page

Also, we need more information about how he plays and what he brings. The collection of things you bring don't sound bad, but some of those things (like genestealers) are tricky to use properly, especially when you have as many templates and blast markers in your face as I'm guessing you do.

Thanks for the advice guys.

He's been changing his list up a lot lately, so I don't know what it will really be like, but I know he generally uses these: Manticore or two (rapes everything of mine, every time), 1 or 2 Leman Russes, Vendettas (makes big bugs be sad :( ), a Bane Wolf, and other than that, he has a few squads of foot soldiers which are trivial to me. The whole thing is just that his vehicles take me down before I can do anything. He always makes a back little spot closest to him in the middle and makes it extremely hard to get there, this is where his Manticore goes, and he puts a squad or two of guys just in front of it to stop my bugs from getting to it.

I did get lucky once, and have Rending Warriors (I started using Shrikes shortly after, either with Claws or Lash Whip/Bonesword) with them outflanking behind him and popping the back of the Manticore open. This was on turn two, however, so one of my Genestealer squads was already dust. I'm thinking I would need a new list to do the straight rush, maybe I need to try to drop Doom next to his Manticore (yummy yummy, LD 7 on 3d6 ), have Hive Guard go for one LR, and send my Zoanthropes after the other. Use Trygon as insurance for popping one of them and Shrike/Hive Tyrant/Genestealer rush his infantry as well as have the Tyrant/Rending Shrikes capable of shredding vehicles along with squishy little Guardsmen.

Just a blanket bit of advice: Outflank and reserve as much as possible, hoping to get the Trygon before the rest. Put the Trygon as close to their stuff as possible. Have everything that can't outflank go through the hole. Invest in a hive tyrant with hive commander.

Alternatively if you MUST trudge across the board, consider adding venomthropes to allow a 5+ against the manticores. It won't protect your army, but it might make sure you have enough left to make him at least a little scared.

-infiltrate your genestealers so they can turn 1 assault if you can put them out of line of sight
-big squads of gargoyles are great
-remember all close combat attacks resolve against rear armor
-yargarbl stealers are also worth considering since they can assault the turn they show up.

Basically, most armies have more than enough firepower to wipe you out if the game lasts to turn 5, my mission as bugs is to make sure the game really only lasts 2-3 turns by running as many fast units as I can, especially ones that can assault before getting fired at.

you are going to take horrific casualties against IG on his first shooting phase, but as long as you soak it by properly deploying units in cover or putting too many threats in range for him to kill them all, he should be nice and clumped up for a titanic gargoyle multi assault on turn 2.

Nine Hive Guard + FNP.

doublepost!

I highly recommend a pair of Trygon Primes DSing into his rear line, 12 shots each should be able to take out at least one, if not both, manticores, and their presence will force him to divert a good chunk of fire at them and away from your more squishy units. And with T6 and W6, they can take a huge beating, with the bonus that if they survive that round, they will destroy anything they can assault. Tag on a squad of raveners or two for extra pain, give them spinefists and make him choose between the assaulty beasts or the MCs.

Supergaunts (hormies w/ toxin and adrenal) are excellent and cheap at 10pts per model, and can suck up wounds very well with sheer numbers. They have the bonus that with adrenals, on the charge they can glance anything with AV10 to death, especially with rerolling 1s.

I personally hate genestealers, overrated IMO.

I'm really liking the dual Trygon approach. I love Genestealers, just not for vehicle hunting. In my opinion, there isn't much better for infantry hunting (for Tyranids).

The Fragile Breath wrote:I'm really liking the dual Trygon approach. I love Genestealers, just not for vehicle hunting. In my opinion, there isn't much better for infantry hunting (for Tyranids).

The trick is with genestealers, to either pop the transports with hive guard beforehand, or multi-assault a ton of vehicles that didn't move when they come tearing out of cover (yargarbl) or outflanking/infiltrating (normal)
If the vehicle didn't move, you /will/ stun or shake it, and maybe destroy it, if on turn 1 or 2 you can shake a ton of your opponents vehicles that you didn't shoot at, you're buying yourself an extra turn for your heavy hitters to deep strike or run over and start cracking heads.
Just the threat of stealers might cause the IG player to move his vehicles 6", this again reduces the firepower you have to deal with in the vital turn 1-2 shooting phase.

Hive guard, ymgarl stealers, tervigons with fnp and trygons

daedalus wrote:Just a blanket bit of advice: Outflank and reserve as much as possible, hoping to get the Trygon before the rest. Put the Trygon as close to their stuff as possible. Have everything that can't outflank go through the hole.

You hope too much.

Hive Guard and MCs are your friend. So you spam T6. You can beat him at his own game. Stay back with Tervigons and Hiveguard and shoot the crap out of his uncovered AV12 with 18ish S8 shots while producing expendable troops. You will hit him harder, than he will hit you. Use Trygons and Genestealers to run over the rest of his army.

This will secure the tie and you will probably win.

The game's tomorrow! I'm going to run two Trygon Primes, I'm thinking no regeneration, what would you say?

Use Spore Mines (Fast Attack option) to disrupt his deployment. Don't worry about them exploding: they won't. But he can't deploy within 1" of a Spore Mine model. A unit of 5 lets you deny roughly a Large Blast template of deployment space. The notion is to try and force him to deploy more units in reserve, and out of their ideal position. After they've served their role in deployment, anything they do is gravy, because a Chimera or any other non-AV10 vehicle is going to be able to clear it from the board.

I'd recommend a Hive Tyrant with Wings and Hive Commander over the Swarmlord. He can Deep Strike, and carry guns while providing a Reserve bonus. Even if he brings a Naval Advisor (or whatever they're called) in his Company Command Squads, you're better off having that bonus than not.

Guns are good because you lack enough shooting units. Certainly the units that you have can shoot well, but you can't engage enough units to cover your Genestealers, especially not against an Imperial Guard mechanized army.

Basically you need to be able to cut the Imperial Guard army up into chunks that you can kill.

Now the reason I think that Hive Guard are the current go-to in Tyranid firepower is because they deliver the kind of reliable firepower that gives Long Fangs wet dreams. Which is great, but you can only have three units, and they can't split fire.

Also, Chimeras are only AV12 on their narrow front. Being able to shoot from all angles effectively makes them AV10 vehicles.

Now that's armour that Venom Cannons can handle, especially Heavy Venom Cannons. Don't think of these as anti-tank weapons though. They're more like vehicular suppression weapons. Getting a Shaken result is good enough since it stops a tank from shooting.

With a 36" range the Venom Cannon is a good walk-on weapon for Tyranid Warriors. They have an effective range of 42" with a 6" move, which is useful if you don't want to expose your Warriors to Storm Eagle Rockets before they can fire. A unit arriving from reserves gets the first shot, which can be better than having the best shot.

Something else to consider are Lictors. Now, you may imagine these are useless. Not the case. In particular their Pheromone Trail is handy for an army bolstered by a Reserve bonus. Being able to land precise Deep Strikes benefits an army with lots of Deep Striking units. You need to take units of 3 though.

So, try to force him into reserve to lower his first turn shooting, hold much of your own back so that you can get the first shot, and use suppressive firepower to cover your 'kill-units'.

You either go full reserves or all on the table for this. Genestealers can work well, but don't be too keen to race them ahead of the rest of the army. Target saturation is the way to go - 3 units of 15 stealers with rending claws and adrenals and 2 trygons would be nice. Hive tyrant and hive commander if you're going to use reserves. Hive guard are a must I feel.

Without points levels though it is difficult to be too specific.

I've had a lot of success against these kinds of armies by outflanking a Tervigon taken as a troops choice and chosen with the Hive Commander ability. It's a choice you actually get to make instead of getting screwed with Mycetic Spores like space marines don't, so it's very flexible. If you're playing an army where it doesn't help you just don't do it. Against IG artillery the guy's a real champ. He can't spawn the first turn you outflank so be aware of that but he can get monstrous creature shots on rear armor of all those stupid artillery pieces that clog up the back corners of every IG army. Add the spawned Termagants the second turn to chew up any heavy weapons teams or order-giving commanders and the like and against IG armies this guy is horrendously effective.

There is a lot of interesting advice in this thread.

As someone who plays both armies, I can say that some of the things spoken in this thread already are not particularly useful. Reserving your whole army, of utilizing the Tyrgon's hole is bound for failure.

The absolute last thing you want to do is send your army at an IG gun line piece meal. Hive Commander is a nice ability, but will be negated by the Officer of the Fleet. Hive Guard are nice, but Guard can pack so much high strength low ap that making them go away and denying them FNP will not be much of an issue.

Heavy Venom Cannons, as have been stated elsewhere, are over priced and not worth the points you spend on them. Even if the option was free, I wouldn't take them. I recently played against a Tyranid player in a tournament who fielded a HVC, it didn't hit once, and then I shot it off the table. You are basically paying for a str. 9 ap - shot that only is accurate a third of the time. And you are usually paying a premium for that. There are so many better tactics at shaking/stunning tanks, that it is unnecessary.

I am a fan of the Swarmlord, he comes with the +1 reserve rolls, but the biggest reason I like him is because he is the closest thing to a brick unit that tyranids can reliably have. Him and a unit of two Hive Guard with Boneswords can, and will, out assault most units in the game. Plus I love the fact that he can toss around a USR to units that can't normally get them. He is less useful against IG, but he is still a pretty solid choice.

If I where to give you any advice, it would be Gargoyles. A unit of 20 of them, fully upgraded, always makes it into any list I field.

The tactic is simple. Deploy them in a line and deploy most of your army behind them. You move forward with them and run. The rest of your army advances behind them and gets glorious cover from them. Then when you get close you assault tanks with a crap ton of str. 4 rear armor attacks. At the very least you will stun a bunch of tanks. You should be able to do so one turn two ad put Guard in the awkward position of having to get out and shoot at you. Something they will not be apt to do.

My usually Tyranid Tactics is to have at least one unit of Genestealers, Hive Guard, an HQ, Tervigon (or two) and two trygons advance behind that line (Trygons will struggle for cover, but you do have the option of FNPing them). I then use units like Zoanthropes in Pods, Ymgarl Genestealers, Outflanking Genestealers, etc. to try and surround and box in my opponent. I plan to loose at least one Tyrgon, but if you present enough targets, you can delude the ability of a strong gunline from dictating its shooting phase, which is what you are looking for in this match up.

To be honest, Tyranids will struggle everytime against Guard, as a decent Guard list usually has a leg up in the match up. But with practice, you will find that you will have a measure of success.

Mahu is right: One Heavy Venom Cannon isn't anything to write home about. You need at least 3, and you'll do better with more.

Something to remember about the Reserve bonus is that although it may be negated by the Officer of the Fleet, at least it is negated instead of having -1 to all your reserve rolls.

I plan to loose at least one Tyrgon, but if you present enough targets, you can delude the ability of a strong gunline from dictating its shooting phase which is what you are looking for in this match up.

This bears repeating.
If you can't dictate the game as tyranids, you will generally lose to a good player.

Nurglitch wrote:Mahu is right: One Heavy Venom Cannon isn't anything to write home about. You need at least 3, and you'll do better with more.

Something to remember about the Reserve bonus is that although it may be negated by the Officer of the Fleet, at least it is negated instead of having -1 to all your reserve rolls.

I would argue that even three is not enough, how many points are you spending, in the best case scenario, three shaken results? The only platform that can carry it with any sort of reliability is a Hive Tyrant. Carnifexes are unreliable because of their high cost. For the points, I rather have a Trygons which is quicker and has a better chance to wreck thing in close combat or a Tyrannofex that has better ranged firepower and is more resistant to missile launchers (both in wounds and saves).

At the end of the day Tyranids need to be in peoples faces on turn two, more then they need to shake a few tanks.

My comment towards Hive Commander, which I think is a cool ability in certain builds, is that, yes, it bounces the Officer of the Fleet, but massed reserving is a bad choice against guard. Guard relies on good target priority, and the overwhelming amount of shooting it takes to get things down. You put things in piece meal (and that is what you do when you mass reserve) then you just make Guards target priority easier. I can't tell you how many games I played on both sides of the equation where you get "sweet, my Trygon and Genestealers showed up this turn, crap, they are dead" "sweet my second Trygon and the Zoanthropes showed up, well, no they are dead too. Hmmm, well, I guess I am ot winning this one."

Overwhelm target priority and provide yourself some mobile cover, and you should have enough speed to start threatening things early.

you can delude the ability of a strong gunline from dictating its shooting phase which is what you are looking for in this match up.

My point exactly.

Reserve the Trygons, put everything else on the table. Gargoyles are IMO nothing more than a meat shield against guard, even their flashlights will destroy any size unit of them in one round of rapid fire.

Swarmlord is my personal favorite, hes such a frightening MC that my opponent always has to focus on him for most of the game.

Mahu:

The best case would be three Wrecked vehicles, would it not? That's something else to mention about Venom Cannons, they're almost ideal for destroying transport vehicles that you have surrounded by infantry to prevent emergency bail out. Best case is rare though. On average though you'll damage a vehicle, which is pretty handy if that's a Chimera filled with Plasma-armed Veterans or such.

Currently I'm fielding two broods of two Carnifexen in 1850pts and they're plenty reliable.

An oft overlooked advantage of the Swarmlord is the 18" synapse range. I have found it especially useful with gargoyles.