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Xca|iber wrote:On the other hand, I'm against murderers and rapists (and other violent criminals) being allowed to have luxuries in prison.

How about TV or books? Maybe they should be put to work in a chain gang and not given a pillow on their bed. Ok that might be hyperbole, but a big part of prison is about rehabilitation and you've got to make their life worth living for that to work. It's not much of a luxury really. Playing a few games makes them socialise and do something more constructive than vandalising stuff, picking fights or trying to break out. If prison isn't more constructive than mere punishment then they'll only re-offend shortly after release and be back in. Ultimately it means that more people become victims of those people who could have been rehabilitated and the tax payer has to cover their continual accommodation.

I don't think the ban on D&D has got anything to do with reality, there are long held beliefs, or shall we say suspicion, among conservative sorts that things like D&D are somehow dangerous and make people interested in black magic and sacrifice or at least undermines christianity... or in this case promotes violence and gangs, or that somehow the Dungeon Master has total control over the players. These are the sorts of beliefs held by people who have very little real experience of D&D and and are informed by the shrill writings of the religious right.

Besides, those 4 sided dice are dangerous.

Just ask my dad about walking across the floor barefoot while I was growing up.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Xca|iber wrote:On the other hand, I'm against murderers and rapists (and other violent criminals) being allowed to have luxuries in prison.

How about TV or books? Maybe they should be put to work in a chain gang and not given a pillow on their bed. Ok that might be hyperbole, but a big part of prison is about rehabilitation and you've got to make their life worth living for that to work. It's not much of a luxury really. Playing a few games makes them socialise and do something more constructive than vandalising stuff, picking fights or trying to break out. If prison isn't more constructive than mere punishment then they'll only re-offend shortly after release and be back in. Ultimately it means that more people become victims of those people who could have been rehabilitated and the tax payer has to cover their continual accommodation.

I don't think the ban on D&D has got anything to do with reality, there are long held beliefs, or shall we say suspicion, among conservative sorts that things like D&D are somehow dangerous and make people interested in black magic and sacrifice or at least undermines christianity... or in this case promotes violence and gangs, or that somehow the Dungeon Master has total control over the players. These are the sorts of beliefs held by people who have very little real experience of D&D and and are informed by the shrill writings of the religious right.

As a matter of fact, I don't think they should get cable TV. Only news and educational programs. Books are okay - even awful novels can still be good mental exercise. However I'm hardly convinced that letting dangerous prisoners (aka the ones incarcerated for violent/disturbing crimes) watch Jersey Shore and other "entertainment" television is going to be good for their rehabilitation. And yes, I also think prisoners should have to work and earn minimum wage so that they are only removed from society, not the economy (until they are rehabilitated, if ever).

Prison IS a punishment. If prisoners get all the cushy luxuries of normal citizens, then what's the incentive for not committing a crime? I find it hard to believe that the majority of hardened criminals are going to cease their unlawful behavior because "prison taught them it was morally wrong."

That said, I still doubt that D&D is actually harmful in any way. It's just a game after all. My point is just that prisoners' luxuries (such as games, TV, and other negligibly healthy entertainment) should be limited overall.

As noted, prison has to include rehabilitation or it's just going to make the people worse when they come out. Some form of leisure activity is necessary too; they can't be just working and sleeping, or again, they just get nastier. Studying to learn to read, to get GEDs or certifications, etc, are necessary too, and leisure activities which include and engender reflection, creativity, and cooperation are beneficial to the prisoners and to society.

D&D and other RPGs have some of the highest potential for improvement of prisoners of any leisure activity. Implicitly socializing them, teaching them better communication and cooperation, and reinforcing social behaviors instead of antisocial ones.

Xca|iber wrote:Prison IS a punishment. If prisoners get all the cushy luxuries of normal citizens, then what's the incentive for not committing a crime? I find it hard to believe that the majority of hardened criminals are going to cease their unlawful behavior because "prison taught them it was morally wrong."

Prisoners don't get "all the cushy luxuries of normal citizens" though, not by a long way. Telly and a few books. Big whoopee. They also have educational opportunities or can do various crafts and often they need to show good behaviour first. Prisons are full of petty criminals, the hardened criminals certainly exist but most people who go to prison go there for short sentences for petty offences, they aren't all murderers and bank robbers.

I don't think prison is so soft that people don't see the incentive not to commit crime, not by a hell of a long way. People can't be expected to merely work, eat and sleep in prison if you want anything positive to come out of it. It's a balance between punishment and rehabilitation, and it should be inhumane. And denying people any form of relaxation or entertainment is inhumane, you'll just create people who incredibly angry and frustrated. I'm not sure what counts as a 'luxury' but people in prison don't get a hell of a lot compared to what normal people are used to on a daily basis. Some newspapers would have you believe they roll out the carpet for prisoners when they arrive and pander to their various whims, it's not like that.

I would hardly call being stuck in tight, overcrowded, dirty quarters full of crazy people, a lot of which carry HIV, hepatitis and MRSA among other things, a cushy life

Grabzak Dirtyfighter wrote:I would hardly call being stuck in tight, overcrowded, dirty quarters full of crazy people, a lot of which carry HIV, hepatitis and MRSA among other things, a cushy life

Are we talking about jail or public high schools?

Mannahnin wrote:As noted, prison has to include rehabilitation or it's just going to make the people worse when they come out.

There's a National Geographic series (the name escapes me) that hasn't debuted yet that supposedly ends up focusing on this, despite ostensibly being a general documentary. It looks like History Channel's Gangland without the dramatization.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Howard A Treesong wrote:
I don't think prison is so soft that people don't see the incentive not to commit crime, not by a hell of a long way.

Jail ain't so bad. You can make Sangria in the toilet.

Of course its shank, or be shanked.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Monster Rain wrote:
Are we talking about jail or public high schools?

Aren't they really the same thing?

dogma wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:
I don't think prison is so soft that people don't see the incentive not to commit crime, not by a hell of a long way.

Jail ain't so bad. You can make Sangria in the toilet.

Of course its shank, or be shanked.

Amaya wrote:
Gang rape?

In our neck of the woods we call that "alternate lifestyle tolerance education." It's quite ground breaking when you think about it.

Chimera_Calvin wrote:God bless America...

Better hope they don't play Space Hulk - that game clearly teaches corridor fighting tactics that would be invaluable in a prison riot.

Assuming the inmates had managed to smuggle in a few stormbolters, that is.

I think the inmates would be the Genestealers in space hulk.

dogma wrote:

I don't think prison is so soft that people don't see the incentive not to commit crime, not by a hell of a long way.

Jail ain't so bad. You can make Sangria in the toilet.

Of course its shank, or be shanked.

Of course.