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By 'tanks' I mean anything that takes wounds from the Vehicle Damage Table. I know they're not all 'tanks' per se, but 'vehicles' has more letters in it and I'm a lazy bugger

MLs and ACs aren't AP1, and because they're not AP1 it means your chances of actually destroying a vehicle are slim even with a Penetrating hit; I shudder to think how many Missiles I've wasted shooting the Storm Bolters off Rhinos. Add to this the prevalence of vehicle cover saves, and what you end up with is the conclusion that MCs and ACs aren't about killing tanks. They're about annoying them. That's fine. I don't necessarily need to destroy absolutely every single vehicle my opponent fields in order to win a game. More important is my ability to force cover saves and produce disruptive results against his transports and firebase models whilst maintaining the ability to put fearsome numbers of wounds into infantry if the next opponent I face is fielding 180 Orks. That's why MLs and ACs are good, not because there's vehicular death in every bite.

The Poison... I don't think it's really sunk in yet that Poison is awesome but mark my words, when people figure it out you'll see it everywhere. Running Cavalry is now a lot less fun :(

It would like me asking you "Would you rather buy $100 in stocks that will return $500 in 1 year, or would you rather spend $110 in stocks that will return $1000 in the same amount of time. A 100% increase in returns is significant.

Bad analogy. It'd be more like you asking me if I want to spend 30pts on two Rapid Firing Relentless Plasma Guns or 20pts on two Meltaguns.

Using Plasma as an anti-armour weapon is the same as using a Powerfist as an anti-armour weapon. In fact Powerfists are actually better because while I might need 6s to hit, I don't need to maneuver into the rear arc to hit the rear armour and cover saves don't count in CC. Meltaguns, however, are anti-armour weapons by their very nature. AP1 counts for a helluva lot.

So.. yeah. Gimme the Melta and I'll buy some Meltabombs with the change.

Calvary can fleet, where bikes cannot. That gives the TWC a 1" - 6" movement advantage when assaulting, and a 0-5" disadvantage when not. I don't have the SW codex with me - do they have rules that differ from the calvary on p54 of the BRB.

No, they're no different; hence they charge 19" at least where your Bike is going 18" at most.

We could go into the whys and wherefores and say they're both as good as each other against non-Fast non-Skimmers from a fixed point standing start, or analyse how the Bike comes out better if he has to chase the vehicle for more than one turn, or poke at the variables terrain in the way throws up, but that would be academic, because the fact remains that using a Powerfist (or indeed any CC attack) as anti-tank in anything other than a fortuitous moment of opportunity is silly.

Putting Powerfists on anything other than big (and thus expensive) Bike squads is a bit of a waste too, for the same reason giving them to Tac Sergeants is a waste; if something that you'd want the Powerfist to handle charges a 5-man squad, like say a Monster or a Walker, your unit is most likely going to be dead before I1.



As far as Tactical Squads... all I can say is if you honestly think you'd be better off with Grey Hunters, take them. Please. Get them the hell away from me; I'll have the Tactical Squads with their two units in one and their free Heavy weapon, and you can have the Ld8 Chaos Marines with cheap special weapons and Counter-Attack. I would mention Acute Senses, and probably should since I pay for it in the model's cost, but considering their longest-range weapons are 24" Rapid Firing ones I won't bother.

A MM on AV 10 has a ~32% to destroy. The AC has ~20%. You are giving the impression that melta is a sure thing and the AC is not. The math does not agree. All vehicles are very tough in 5th Ed.

The reason I described 100 to 110 is that you need to include the base cost of the unit. The extras increase the unit cost by X. When were talking about a RoI, we discuss our complete investment.

I agree with you on poisoned weapons. Units like big bugs are encouraging people to field more.

On the regards of plasma on vehicles...well as we disagree on the effectiveness of AC on armor, I think thats it's something we need to agree to disagree on. Basically you like melta on bikes for the extra armor killiness, and I like plasma for the FNP denying and MEQ killiness.

labmouse42 wrote:You are giving the impression that melta is a sure thing and the AC is not.

I might be giving that impression, but what I'm actually trying to say is that nothing in 40k is certain so everything you can do to tip the scales in your favour helps. That means having lots of everything and a few of something that is very nasty. In IoM terms this usually results in lots of ACs and MLs and a few Melta weapons.

ACs and Meltaguns are apples and oranges, and as such I'd never directly compare them. Lascannons and Autocannons are roughly similar so I'd compare those, and for me the AC comes out top. It's cheap, fires twice and will wound most things on a 2+, that's why.

The reason I described 100 to 110 is that you need to include the base cost of the unit. The extras increase the unit cost by X. When were talking about a RoI, we discuss our complete investment.

Even still, it's a bad analogy. Plasma is for killing infantry; it can be turned on armour if needs be. Meltaguns are the opposite; however where the Plasma Gun leaves you with no really effective anti-tank shots, taking the Meltagun still leaves your Biker with the twin-linked Bolter on his handlebars.

Are bolters as good at killing stuff as a Plasma gun? Of course they aren't. They're good enough though, and against stuff like Monsters that a Bolter can't harm... you've got the Meltagun. Is a Meltagun as good at chipping away Monster wounds as a Plasma Gun? Again no, but it's good enough, and if it's not you've got a table-full of fire support behind you.

@Lictor_Interdictor
MLs and ACs aren't about destroying tanks?

I completely disagree with that point. I think when you look at it in terms of ones and twos, yes, you would be right. The key to any shooting strategy though is to pack in as many as possible.

For example, my go to tournament list has 21 missile launchers, 5 twin las cannons, 2 twin auto cannons, a twin assault cannon, 3 heavy bolters, a plasma cannon, and no melta weapons.

I face mostly mech armies and I shoot their pants off. It isn't even close in most cases. I started with 3 melta weapons and have trimmed them back to none as I have found I just don't need them anymore.

Different strokes for different folks, of course, but in my experience in taking that army to a lot of tournaments, I have found it just dominates armies at long range and I shred their tanks before they even get close to me.

As Labmouse said, the math supports it.

You are right that meltas are absolutely better in a pure efficiency comparison, however, the things are hard to measure, such as range of a weapon, have proven to me in practice to be far better.

@Lambadomy
You are right brotha, check it out with Wolves. Same list, better enough to make it the clear choice. Ah, wolves. Why are you so good?

Tournament List 1500 Points
Unit Description Size Cost
HQ
Rune Priest Storm Caller, JotWW, M.Bombs 1 105

Troops
Grey Hunters Flamer, Razorback, Assault Cannon 6 150
Grey Hunters Melta, Razorback 6 120
Grey Hunters Melta, Razorback 6 120

Elites
Drednought A.Cannon x 2 1 125
Drednought A.Cannon x 2 1 125
Drednought A.Cannon x 2 1 125

Fast Attack
Typhoon 1 90
Typhoon 1 90
Typhoon 1 90

Heavy Support
Predator L.Cannon Sponsons 1 120
Predator L.Cannon Sponsons 1 120
Predator L.Cannon Sponsons 1 120

Totals 28 1500

Reecius wrote:@Lictor_Interdictor
MLs and ACs aren't about destroying tanks?

I completely disagree with that point. I think when you look at it in terms of ones and twos, yes, you would be right. The key to any shooting strategy though is to pack in as many as possible.

Exactly. And even when you do that, you tend to find it takes more fire than it's worth to actually wreck a vehicle. I don't like dumping 100 points plus of shootan' into a 35pt Rhino just so's I can say it died. If I can Stun it, that'll do fine.

For example, my go to tournament list has 21 missile launchers, 5 twin las cannons, 2 twin auto cannons, a twin assault cannon, 3 heavy bolters, a plasma cannon, and no melta weapons.

I face mostly mech armies and I shoot their pants off. It isn't even close in most cases. I started with 3 melta weapons and have trimmed them back to none as I have found I just don't need them anymore.

Different strokes for different folks, of course, but in my experience in taking that army to a lot of tournaments, I have found it just dominates armies at long range and I shred their tanks before they even get close to me.

As Labmouse said, the math supports it.

You are right that meltas are absolutely better in a pure efficiency comparison, however, the things are hard to measure, such as range of a weapon, have proven to me in practice to be far better.

Yeah; things that are hard to mathematise, like range, who's going first, how your opponent deploys, how you deploy, what shooting is coming back at you, where the terrain is at, Deep Strikers, outflankers, how your army works when it hits 50-odd Blood Angels Jump Packers instead of the light mech you were expecting...

This is why, when people say anything about math I have to take it with a pinch of salt. Math tells me I can shoot Plasma into the rear armour of a vehicle to inflict damage in a pinch. Experience tells me people don't usually let my Plasma Guns get into the rear arc of their vehicles for precisely this reason.

Just so you know. Librarians can't take MB's. You listed it in one of your earlier lists. Its a common oversight.

Ga.