Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So, I like playing Vanilla marines and I think this is a particularly nasty 1500 list.

My question is, what do you guys think. Are the Bikers worth it? I like the idea of a fast, shooty squad that is only a single KP, it makes the army a bit less cookie cutter and has good enough assault capability to beat up weakened assault units or dedicated shooty units.

My alternative would be to use two Lazorback Tac squads with a Libby as HQ. That is more firepower and two mobile scoring units, but it is pretty bleh in terms of originality. At 1500 points tournaments (since they tend to be smaller) I like to bring lists that are at least a little creative while still remaining competitive.

Tournament List 1500 Points
Unit Description Size Cost
HQ
Captain Bike, R.Blade, S.Shield, M.Bombs 1 180

Troops
Sniper Scouts Cloaks 5 90
Bikers Flamer x 2, P.Fist, MM A.Bike 6 225

Elites
Drednought A.Cannon x 2 1 125
Drednought A.Cannon x 2 1 125
Drednought A.Cannon x 2 1 125

Fast Attack
Typhoon 1 90
Typhoon 1 90
Typhoon 1 90

Heavy Support
Predator L.Cannon Sponsons 1 120
Predator L.Cannon Sponsons 1 120
Predator L.Cannon Sponsons 1 120

Totals 21 1500

This is a really unique list, so I'm having a hard time commenting on it, hopefully I haven't made too much an arse out of myself.

Personally, I'm always a bit nervous about lists that field such small amounts of scoring models. How do you protect them? I presume the answer is to not put them into risky situations and kill everything , but how would you deal with alpha strike armies, or armies that feature DSing/outflanking suicide units targeting your scouts/bikers.

I see you being able to completely shut down the transports of mech armies, but I don't see the kinds of guns that I would typically associate with removing the contained infantry. I think that may just be me however, I see enough auto even to kill decent amounts of infantry, enough frag missiles to do the same and the two flamers are just gravy.

It would be at the very least, interesting to play against

Lord PoPo is right, this army is very squishy.

7 of the units here would die incredibly easy from First or Second turn assault.

9 could easily be shot to death.

The bikers are the only thing that would probably survive from an Alpha-strike army.

Uh, what kind of alpha strike are you guys talking about that can "incredibly easily" destroy 3 AV13, 3 Av12, and 3 Av10 targets in one or two turns? How is this army in any way squishy? Or, to what is it squishy because I play in a lot of tournaments and I can't think of too many armies I would fear. What types of builds are you guys talking about that hit as hard as you describe, reliably? And the bikers are the only thing that survives an alpha strike? Haha, they are the weakest part of the list!

This IS an alpha strike army. Plus, it is a largely mobile Alpha strike army. If you go second have the preds provide cover to dread to typhoons. If you go first, you will smash a typical light mech, tournament list.

This army packs in more firepower and unique units into 1500 points than most armies even get close to. This army should outshoot nearly any other list besides some IG and wolf armies.This is essentially the best units in the SM codex, maxed out.

And two scoring units is all you need for most missions, and really only a liability (sometimes) in Seize Ground missions. The scouts camp an objective and go to ground if anything scary shoots at them, but can reserve if they need to. The bikes can reserve and go after objectives late game.

Many of the best tournament lists going right now use very few troops, that is not something that bothers me at all. I use only two troops even in 2K games and it is not a problem.

I'm curious though, maybe I am missing something. What lists do you guys think this would fear? These are the stock SM tournament units with a little twist with the bikers.

@Lord PoPo
You don't sound like an ass at all man, sorry if my counter-questions come across that way. In most tournament lists, you don't see many infantry heavy lists. It is almost all Mech. You do need to be able to take on hordes as they make good spoiler armies, but it is not common.

But as you said, 6 wtin auto cannons, 3 regular, 6 m.launchers, 3 heavy bolters and flamers plus bikers gives you plenty of flak fire. That is not much of a concern, really.

@ grayspark: I didn't say the army was squishy... I was asking how he kept his potentially squishy units alive.

Edit:

@ reecius: I didnt' say the army was squishy!!!!

It would seem that infiltrating shrikenators could give you some trouble, and that drop podding sternguard squads with combi-meltas would as well just because they can, potentially, kill two preads turn 1. Obviously, I could be wrong.

Aside from that I don't honestly know what else could mess you up, but my experience lies with SM, and I know little of the other codexes.

You reserve them if you are really worried, but what tends to happen is that a unit of 5 scouts with cloaks in cover is a hard target to kill baring assault or template weapons, and when you have a number of very high priority targets pumping fire into you (the mech units) they drop way down on the target priority list.

The bikes are what I am worried about. Bikes aren't hard to kill but they are cool! They are also a light arms magnet as they are the only target that will be worth shooting by bolters and such.

Honestly, yo really make this army tough, I would drop the scouts, bikers and captain and go with 3 units of 5 marines in Razorbacks and a libby, or two units of tac marines in lazorbacks with a libby and upgrade one dread to have some combat ability.

That gives you a total mech force that has no soft targets, but it is a bit passe in the tournament scene.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Lord PoPo

Haha, sorry to include you in the squishy retort.

Infiltrating shrike termies is tough, but that is tough for anyone but venom spam and power blob IG.

I feel that I would be able to flak the termies to death before they did much to me unless the Shrike player had 30 termies which is possible at 1500 points. In that case you are right, I would probably lose unless I was able to deploy in such a way as to be able to back up and shoot them with mobile flak. That would maybe buy enough time to cut them down, but maybe not. That is a good argument though and another reason why a Null Zone libby with mobile tac squads really is th emore competitive choice.

Sternguard aren't to concerning. Drop pods tactics are easily countered by castling/popping smoke or simply reserving if they have enough pods. Then you come on and alhpa strike them, when they are largely static.

I think Deathwing would be trouble, too. They are like Shrikinators that shoot back! That list would probably own this list pretty badly, to be honest.

Other than that though, I think the biggest threat would be to go second to another shooty alpha strike army.

Aaannd on that note my list for my upcoming league for the 1500 point month.

Shrike - 195

Cassius - 125

Tac x5, combi-melta LasPlas back - 175

Tac x5, LasPlas back - 170

Vanguard Vets x5, TH, LC/SS x4, MBx4 - 380

Terminator Assault x8, TH/SS x5, LCx3 - 280

Devastator Squad x5, PC x4 - 190

Obviously an all comers list with the PC, bye bye boys behind kan walls, but they have their uses vs MEQ. Used to take TDA Chap with the infilitrate shrike/terminators but hey guess what cassius is 5 points less, has a MC combi-flamer if you get the chance to use it and is toughness 6 with fnp so he lol's at massed shooting which is the bane for termies sans plasma in my experience. So I took some LC in there as well to take advantage of those re-rolls to hit AND wound on the charge. Heroic Intervention with the vets near your preds for some MB/TH fun on them. Shoot the LasPlas at your dreads while probably moving 6 towards them. Would probably keep the tac squads inside the razor's as the typhoons are my only problem there. So if you run into things like this designed to kill your heavies and take your obj having those bikers is gonna help imo as they can kite and hopefully get the draw if you lose the real fight I think I may try a squad out sometime as my FLGS has a guy selling an unopened DA bike battleforce for 50$.

I personally would have a hard time justifying not taking a librarian when the captain is just bringing a single bike squad.

I guess this is what I would do instead:

Captain on bike, 1x lightning claw, melta bomb ~ 155 (cheap and dirty)
3x riffle dreads ~ 125
1 full sized bike squad, 2x flamers, MM attack bike ~ 275
1 min sized for troops bike squad with 2x melta guns, mm attack bike ~ 185
3x typhoons
2x auto las preds

No expensive CC upgrades for the bikes, and the captain is cheaper, but still reasonable in CC. He goes with the melta squad to hopefully assault some freshly disembarked troops.

Gives up the scouts and 1 auto las pred for 3 more melta weapons and a possible additional scoring unit (combat squading the flamer bike squad). Also gives up the power fists, since they aren't all that effective, and they are really expensive.

How does this deal with horde?

starsdawn wrote:How does this deal with horde?

Horde is a bit rare in most tourneys, its more common in your average store events and casual gaming. Horde can be a bit of a spoiler to this type of army, but it does have some tools to try and pull off a win. 2x flamers, and 3 typhoon MLs can put a dent in the average horde unit. Add in some contributions from the auto cannons and bike bolters, and you can make a game out of it.

The most common horde army is orks, which has a hard time dealing with armor at range. It often brings the kan wall at this points level, and this type of list can bring down a good portion of the wall down in just a couple round of shooting. Once the wall is down it is possible (though with this list type hard) to shoot the units behind it to below fearless, and then tank shock them away, or force morale test.

The other common horde army is nids, which isn't nearly as popular (see more big bugs and hybrids than pure horde), and has issues when its synapse is gone. This army can snipe out the harder elements of the nids, while the horde part doesn't really have many targets they are good at killing.

I guess what I'm saying is most horde armies have a hard core in them, once that core is eliminated, the average trooper doesn't have much it can do. They aren't capable against armor, and this type of list is nearly all armor. So it comes to eliminating fearless, and using better maneuvering ability to pick where the fights are.

Reecius wrote:So, I like playing Vanilla marines and I think this is a particularly nasty 1500 list.

Here are my thoughts

To much of a good thing
The role of rifleman dreads, typhoons, and AC-LC preads is anti-transport. They also can deliver crushing blows to other high priority targets, such as MCs. The predators are even good vs AV 13 and can take down soulgrinders through volume of fire.

The question is how many of those targets will you be seeing at the 1500 points level? When facing BA razorback spam, I think you will crack open the razorbacks by end of turn 2, but wont have enough shots to kill the infantry. If you play vs. a horde army you just wont have the firepower to deliver.

Army building is all about ratios, and I think your just a touch heavy on the anti-transport ratio.

Feel Just a little Pain
So what weapons do bikes have that can turn BA into piles of smoldering boots. Melta or plasma. Melta is better vs armor, plasma gives you 2* as many shots.

Imagine 2 bike squads with 2 PG and 1 MM each shooting at a squad of 10 DC with jumppacks. Your unloading 8 plasma gun shots, 2 MM with all will deny FNP and saves in addition to wounding on 2+. You also have your TL bolter shots, and can follow up with an assault -- your powerfists/captain can clear the 2-3 models that are left.

That works very well with the gunline you already have.

Bikes don't need scouts
Scouts are really good at camping an objective on your side of the board. As 2/3 of the missions are objective based its a great idea for most armies.

Bikes are bit unusual, as they bring their cover with them! Set an objective on your side of the board well away from any cover. If your opponent wants to camp it, he will have to sit on it out in the open. On turn 5, turbo boost a squad there to hold it. On turn 6, you turbo another onto it,and turbo that one to another objective.

Ive not played a single game yet where at least one bike squad has not been beat up pretty bad by turn 5. I just use the squads with 1-2 members left to objective grab on my side at the end of the game.

So, long story short --- increase your bike squads to 2 or 3 squads. Mix them with the anti-infantry weapons that will take care of FNP -- GW's new favorite army catchphrase -- and you will find better results.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Reecius wrote:The bikes are what I am worried about. Bikes aren't hard to kill but they are cool! They are also a light arms magnet as they are the only target that will be worth shooting by bolters and such.

Well played bikes are a lot harder to kill than people might think.

I played in a tourney recently where 5 out of 6 of my opponents were IG. In each game, I turbo-boosted in 75% of the turns. The 3++ cover save, large bases, and congo-lining prevented me from getting destoryed via battle cannons. Scatter lasers were a problem, but I just made it a point to stay back until turn 4 or 5. I beat every IG player in the tourney, as their armies were not designed to take mine down.

Bolters wound bikes on a 5+ and you get a 3+ normal save. 6 bikes (including the attack with with 2 wounds) is tougher to take down than 10 marines with bolters due to the toughness difference.

The biggest concern when playing with bikes are troops is this -- when you stop turbo boosting to shoot, you are vulnerable until you can enter light speed again. Thats what makes bike armies so difficult. 3 PG vets in a chimera rapid firing into a bike squad out of turbo-boost will wipe the squad painfully quickly.

I'm with labmouse on this. You need more bikes if the captain should be worth it. Personally I find that 3 squads are nice. 2 melta squads and one flamer squad. To afford the extra squads I have to downgrade 2 preds to dakka preds and drop one rifleman dread along with the scouts.

Ah you guys are right. The bikes don't fit this list.

This is a much better list, I was just trying to mix it up a bit.

Tournament List 1500 Points
Unit Description Size Cost
HQ
Librarian Null Zone, Avenger, M.Bombs 1 105

Troops
Tac Marines Razorback 6 130
Tac Marines Razorback 6 130
Tac Marines Razorback 6 130

Elites
Drednought A.Cannon x 2 1 125
Drednought A.Cannon x 2 1 125
Drednought A.Cannon x 2 1 125

Fast Attack
Typhoon 1 90
Typhoon 1 90
Typhoon 1 90

Heavy Support
Predator L.Cannon Sponsons 1 120
Predator L.Cannon Sponsons 1 120
Predator L.Cannon Sponsons 1 120

Totals 28 1500


That is anti-everything with more mobile scoring ability and it eliminates any soft targets.

Reecius:

How does your last list deal with landraiders? The new FAQs will give rise to both DA and BT (even though the later gain relatively little people are looking again now) and with BA being able to take LRs are dedicated transports you have to expect to come up against at least 1 duel if not triple raider list in any tournament you play. Just seem to have no real ability to deal with AV14.

Likeiwse even battlewagons are likely to cause you huge issues. I just don't see how that list will deal with that type of army.

Personally I don't like how 1 dimensionally defensive the list is as SWs and IG do that type of list so much better. But in a Tournament environment the list should be at least fairly consistent in grinding out results.

I can't see it causing anyone any real issues or you even really needing to be present with the game is played it is a dice army that you deploy and decide target priority and roll dice. As I stated I just feel that that type of army is rather dull to use and play against so why not just go the whoile hog and play SWs or IG who do it so much better?

I like it. Nobody wants to deal with that much shooting spread across that many vehicles at 1500pts. I bloody don't, especially not when the majority of your heaviest firepower is concentrated in AV12 and 13 vehicles. I'm pretty sure I could do it; it's just scary that I have to, lol.

One problem I do forsee comes in the form of Troop mobility. It's a lot of firepower, sure, but it's not really enough to ensure total destruction against everyone; which means against some armies you're going to have to actually play the mission instead of just wiping them out from your board edge.

If you wanted to solve that with Bikes, here's what I'd suggest:

HQ - 135
Biker Captain - 135

Elites - 250
2 of:
Dakka Dread - 125

Troops - 740
4 of:
Bike Squad - 185
- 3 Bikes, 2x Meltagun, +1 Bike, +1 Attack Bike with Multimelta

Fast Attack - 180
2 of:
Land Speeder +1 Typhoon Missile Launcher - 90

Heavy Support - 190
2 of:
Dakka Pred - 85

Your Librarian and Lascannons are gone, and so is one vehicle from each Force Org slot, but you've gained 20 Bikers with 24 wounds and lots of Melta, and neither the firepower nor the nastiness is greatly diminished.

If you're not into Bikes you could solve the Troop mobility issues with Rhinos instead:

HQ - 100
Librarian w/ Null Zone & GoI

Elites - 250
2 of:
Dakka Dread - 125

Troops - 630
3 of:
Tactical Squad - 210
- +5 Marines, 1x Meltagun, 1x Missile Launcher
- Rhino

Fast Attack - 270
3 of:
Land Speeder +1 Typhoon Missile Launcher - 90

Heavy Support - 240
2 of:
AutoLas Pred - 120

Bit weaker than the Bikes, but still plenty of shots and hulls on the table.


Or you could just leave it as it is; aside from the Troops mobility (and the generally poor survival rates of AV10 and 11 in armies with sturdier vehicles) there isn't much wrong with it.

Reecius wrote:Ah you guys are right. The bikes don't fit this list.

This is a much better list, I was just trying to mix it up a bit.

I think bikes can fit the list quite nicely.
This is what I'm using in a 1750 tourney next week.

HQ
Captain on Bike w/Relic Blade
Librarian on Bike w/Null zone and Might of Ancients

Elites
TL AC Dread
TL AC Dread

Troops
6 Bikes : PF, 2 PG, MM attack bike
6 Bikes : PF, 2 PG, MM attack bike
5 Bikes : PF, 2 PG, HB attack bike (2 HQs join this squad)

Fast Attack
2 MM attack bikes
Typhoon Land Speeder
Typhoon Land Speeder

Heavy Support
AC/LC Predator
AC/LC Predator

The bikes take this list and add a ton of mobility to it. When I 'bring the hammer down' I use 2-3 squads to fire on 1 squad, bringing between 8-12 PG shots, 1-2 MM shots, and followed up with the two ICs having 4 STR 6 power weapon attacks each. It works very well, and with Null Zone have used it to wipe out 5 TH/SS termies before.

To cut the list down to 1500, I would consider dropping the following
* Lose the 2 MM attack bikes
* Lose the librarian

If you did that then you would be stuck with pretty much the same list as I use at 1500pts when bringing a captain.

HQ
Captain (Bike+RB) = 165

Elites:
2xRifleman = 250

Troops
5xBikes (MMAB,2xMG,PF) = 235 <-- HQ goes here

4xBikes (MMAB,2xMG) = 185

4xBikes (MMAB,2xPG) = 195

Heavy:
2xDakka Pred = 170

ACLC Pred = 120

FA:
Typhoon = 90

Typhoon = 90


Sorry for the whole "post my list in another thread" thingy but Im just trying to show that a Bike Captain can indeed be a sound investment in combination with preds, riflemans and typhoons.

@FlingitNow
Ah yes, I don't have any melta guns, good point. I rarely see LRs around here anymore. I used to bring a triple raider list but it was just too hit or miss. Mostly in this area it is light mech spam, which my army crushes. You are right though, a tripe raider list would be a major headache with no melta guns. 6 las cannons will be able to deal with 1 LR, but not more than that.

BWs aren't a concern as Typhoons waste battle wagons. They can get into position for side shots with ease. I used to have a regular opponent that used a 5 BW list at 2K and my Typhoons were the bane of his existence. To an extent, rifleman dreads can do it to as they strafe sideways and fire across the board for side armor on BWs.

I ran the math, and Wolves can pack a little bit more firepower in with LFs and cheaper troops, but it is not significant at 1500, to be honest. They also have the superior Rune Priest (although NZ is such a game changing power when it is useful) but my main tournament army is Space Wolves and I like to mix it up a bit.

@LichtorINdictor, Labmouse, and tedurur

You guys are right, in order to make the bike captain worth it, I would need to take more squads of Bikers. That gives you some mobile melta platforms and a lot more speed. The way I was doing it was like a last minute addition that didn't fit.

I actually like all of those lists you guys propose, they look really solid.

I think my list is more of a metagame breaker. Since we have so much light mech spam around here, I know it will spank a lot of armies, but in general, I think the lists you guys propose would be more effective for a true take all comers style list.

Reecius wrote:I rarely see LRs around here anymore. I used to bring a triple raider list but it was just too hit or miss. Mostly in this area it is light mech spam, which my army crushes.

I don't see them as often either. There are more counters to LR now as well. I see mostly light mech as well, which is why I don't bring much anti-AV 14...its just not as common.

Reecius wrote:I ran the math, and Wolves can pack a little bit more firepower in with LFs and cheaper troops

Thats why I like the bikes as troops. It lets us really maximize the C:SM book. If I remember right, the Rune Priest has a better chance to nullify powers (the hood loses on ties, which makes it less than 50% effective) Null Zone is a huge boon when fighting Chaos or TH/SS termies.

As a side note, melta and plasma bikes work very well vs vehicles as well. Meltas can just ride right up and crack them. Plasma ones need to move to the rear/side to do the job. Using my plasma bikes, I've opened up many tanks by moving 12" to the rear and shooting 4 STR 7 shots at its AV 10. Chimeras are also AV 10 on their long sides - much to my friend's chagrin.

Depending on your local meta, you might want flamers on the bikes too. The ability to move 12" allows you to place them in a spot to maximize effect on hordes. Combined with the bolter shots you can take down quite a few boys from a 30 man horde.

If you face more MEQ - Mech IG/Eldar/etc like I do, I find the plasma to be best option. I can't tell you how often Ive cleared out a 10 man squad of BA, Bezerkers, Necrons, Sternguard. Ive used them to wipe out 3 war walkers in 1 round (4 plasma shots plus PF assault), to crack open speeding wave serpents, opening up chimeras, etc...

If you don't have the models, proxy a few games. I used chaos knights in my first games as bikers.

I have quite a few bikers actually (my marine army is stupid big), I just don't use them that often as they aren't super efficient. I just think they look bitchin!

I usually take at least one melta weapon in case of LRs, but even when you can't do much more than stun them, they just don't do that much damage for how much they cost. LRs don't scare me much, but what's inside often does!

I think bikes as troops is a solid option in CSM as they give you mobile and realtively cheap special weapons platforms that are also highly mobile. I typically use scouts or Tac squads with razorbacks in competitive play, but I have been experimenting with bikes lately to at the least, make my CSM lists different than my tournament wolves.

Since I almost exclusively play in tournaments these days (or practice games for tournaments) I don't use non-efficient units almost ever. I love competitive gaming, but taking out the fluff units from time to time is fun, too.

Even assuming you never see AV14 ever again Melta is still worth taking IMHO. S8 AP1 is not something I want hitting my tanks. Sure they're only 12-24" in range, but they're also cheap as chips and are an option for, like... every single squad in every IoM army ever.

I just stick it in everywhere as a matter of habit now.

I moved to using bikes as troops as I personally think C:SM TAQ squads suck.
Bikers have the following advantages over TAQ squads for 7 points more a model
* T4(5)
* Relentless
* TL bolter
* 12" move
* Turbo Boosting
* 2 special weapons per squad
* Heavy weapon can move and fire
* No transport required

It changes your TAQ squads from being things that 'you have to take for objectives' to good units in their own right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lictor_Interdictor wrote:Even assuming you never see AV14 ever again Melta is still worth taking IMHO. S8 AP1 is not something I want hitting my tanks. Sure they're only 12-24" in range, but they're also cheap as chips and are an option for, like... every single squad in every IoM army ever.

I just stick it in everywhere as a matter of habit now.

I tried running all melta on my bikes and found some pretty tough problems. I would move 6" from a rhino and melta it. The models would exit from the other side, out of my assault range. On the following turn, I would have 6 bezerkers/BA/etc assault my bike squad.

Now I use the backline fire support and crack open those transports at range, allowing me to focus on the infantry with STR 7 AP2 weapons. In fact the only tanks that are a problem are LR and Monoliths. Nearly other tank has AV 10 on the rear (a few Russ' variants exluded, and the new stormraven) A powerfist works well for all those vehicles -- or the plasma on the rear armor.

labmouse42 wrote:I tried running all melta on my bikes and found some pretty tough problems. I would move 6" from a rhino and melta it. The models would exit from the other side, out of my assault range. On the following turn, I would have 6 bezerkers/BA/etc assault my bike squad.

Why would you be in Melta range of a Rhino, though? S8 doesn't need 2D6 to penetrate AV11, lol :p

Now I use the backline fire support and crack open those transports at range, allowing me to focus on the infantry with STR 7 AP2 weapons. In fact the only tanks that are a problem are LR and Monoliths. Nearly other tank has AV 10 on the rear (a few Russ' variants exluded, and the new stormraven) A powerfist works well for all those vehicles -- or the plasma on the rear armor.

I find a lot of the typical backfield stuff in most Astartes armies to be more of a disruption than a threat. Stuff like Krak Missiles and Autocannons exist to Shake and Stun AV10-12 vehicles from across the board, whereas Lascannons are expensive and, because they're S9, don't generally last very long unless you bring them in buckets.

When it comes to actually scoring telling damage results on vehicles or outright destroying them, Melta weapons is where our nation finds hope; where wings take dream.

Powerfists aren't anti-tank unless they're being carried by a Thunderwolf rider (and even then, tread with caution), and while Plasma on the rear armour might produce damage you have to get it to the rear armour first, and when you do you'll find your RFin' bolters will likely produce a bit of damage too. Which made the Plasma a bit of a waste.

Yeah, I find that meltas are very good, but you don't need that many of them. As the meta has shifted to light mech, you can get the job done better at long range. That said though, meltas aren't in any way a bad thing, I just find that las cannons are excellent, too, and better against a wider range of targets due to their range.

@labmouse
Dude, I agree. Tac marines suck now. They aren't terrible, but they aren't good either. If they had a CCW, too, they'd be fantastic. As is, they shoot OK, and assault poorly.

I like certain squad load-outs, but in general I find them to be pretty lack luster. The bikes is a good option, but to make them work in my list I'd have to drop some of the heavy hitters. I don't know if I'd want to lose the offensive power. However, like you said, that is half the KPs and more firepower.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Lictor
Powerfists are excellent anti-tank weapons, especially on a fast bike.

And auto-cannons and krak missiles make a mess of AV10-12, that is what most of the best shooty armies (which dominate the game right now) are built on: strength 7 and 8 weapons.

Meltas are great though, no doubt, but as I said, I find I would rather have large numbers of las cannons for taking on heavy armor as I can do it at a range that allows me more than one shot. Meltas typically fire once and die.

LC destroying/exploding armor
AV 10 : ~18.34%
AV 11 : ~14.42%
AV 12 : ~10.92%

ML destroying/exploding armor
AV 10 : ~14.94%
AV 11 : ~11.42%
AV 12 : ~ 7.41%

AC destroying/exploding armor
AV 10 : ~20.62%
AV 11 : ~14.04%
AV 12 : ~ 7.42%

Takeaways
* A LC is less effective than an AC on AV 10
* A LC is nearly equally effective as an AC on AV 11
* A LC is 30% more effective on AV 12 than a ML or AC
* An AC is better than a ML across the board from AV 10-12
* Rapid firing plasma guns are just as effective as ACs
* Power fists are just as effective as MLs

http://www.simhammer.com

If your local meta has a lot of light vehicles then spamming Lascannons might be worthwhile, but... eugh. I'm not a big one for tailoring to local meta. It's not hard to build an acutal all-comers list that can crump the local meta and any other 'meta' you'd care to name; what works, works.

In that respect having some backfield shootan' that will, maybe not mess up AV10-12, but force enough cover saves on enough hulls to disrupt my opponent's movement and limit the back-wash I'm facing during his turn coupled with some mobile Meltaguns to get the actual killing done is the best way to go, in my view. Krak Missiles and Autocannons aren't really tank-killers; they're more like tank-botherers, which is coo' because they'll also put a hurt into infantry in ways a Lascannon won't. And they come cheaper.

Maybe that's just me, I dunno.

Also Taccies don't suck :p

Tactical Marines are making a comeback nowadays; with the release of the Dark Eldar Codex, and every Marine player's subsequent realisation that Sternguard with their 2+ Poisoned shots are actually awesome, not garbage, you've suddenly got a load of Poisoned shots floating around that makes their effective T5 to-wound a lot less potent. They're also far less able to avoid CC nowadays because everyone has Cav, Jumpers, or Fleeting elves of doom in OT transports.

That's not to say Bikers are totally done with, just that they're a lot weaker now than they were previously.



EDIT:

Math-hammer is a compass, not a map.

Assuming your Powerfist is close enough to assault, a Powerfist swing is way more effective than any S8 shootan' weapon against AV10 because it's a guaranteed hit. Assuming the Powerfist is close enough to assault, a Powerfist swing against rear AV10 moving 6" is as effective as a BS3 S8 shootan' weapon against AV10 because it hits on a 4+. Assuming your Powerfist is close enough to assault, your Powerfist swing is roughly as effective as a BS1 S8 shootan' weapon against armour moving 12" because it hits on a 6.

No CC hits are subject to cover saves so they're all automatically better than shootan'. The trade-off is you have to get within charge range of the vehicle to attack it and if it's moved your accuracy goes all to hell.

Hence me saying 'Powerfists aren't anti-tank unless they're being carried by a Thunderwolf rider (and even then, tread with caution)". The TWC is far more likely to catch your vehicle than some Smurfy Sergeant, or even a Bike, because he can charge 8" further than a non-Fast vehicle can move and 1" further than a Fast non-Skimmer can Flat-Out, and his Fist is S10 so it can only Penetrate. It also gets 5 swings instead of 3.

I still wouldn't advocate it unless a decent opportunity presents itself though.

Never said Plasma couldn't hurt rear AV10 either; said you have to get the Rapid Firing (that's 2 shots at 12" if you move, homes) Plasma Gun behind the vehicle. Stand by it, too. Also wonder, if you're going to the bother of maneuvering behind a vehicle to RF the rear armour with a Plasma Gun... why not spend 5pts less and take a Meltagun instead?

Lictor_Interdictor wrote:Krak Missiles and Autocannons aren't really tank-killers; they're more like tank-botherers, which is coo' because they'll also put a hurt into infantry in ways a Lascannon won't.

I guess we need to define tanks. If you describe tanks as AV 13 and 14, then I agree -- which sounds like how your defining them. All the numbers I posted earlier are for light-mid range armor -- not heavy armor (what your describing as tanks). The best tools to take down those are melta/LC/Assault Cannon

Lictor_Interdictor wrote:, you've suddenly got a load of Poisoned shots floating around that makes their effective T5 to-wound a lot less potent.

You know, Ive still not seen a lot of poisoned shots in my games. Even with the new DE codex, Ive just not seen as many in competitive play. I do see more people taking sternguard -- they are awesome. Usually they are shooting the AP3 round at me not the poisoned round -- statically thats a 1/6 higher chance of killing my bike. Its a shame, b/c I love the new DE codex, but noone plays them near me competitively.

Lictor_Interdictor wrote:Math-hammer is a compass, not a map.

Thats a good analogy. I like to describe it as the compass that points you in the right direction. It won't tell you what to do every time, as sometimes you just need to shoot the grot with a LC, but it will always guide you to the right direction.

Lictor_Interdictor wrote:The TWC is far more likely to catch your vehicle than some Smurfy Sergeant

Calvary can fleet, where bikes cannot. That gives the TWC a 1" - 6" movement advantage when assaulting, and a 0-5" disadvantage when not. I don't have the SW codex with me - do they have rules that differ from the calvary on p54 of the BRB.

Lictor_Interdictor wrote:Never said Plasma couldn't hurt rear AV10 either; said you have to get the Rapid Firing (that's 2 shots at 12" if you move, homes) Plasma Gun behind the vehicle. Stand by it, too. Also wonder, if you're going to the bother of maneuvering behind a vehicle to RF the rear armour with a Plasma Gun... why not spend 5pts less and take a Meltagun instead?

First of all, bikes are relentless. You can move, shoot, then assault with them.

Secondly, the reason I take plasma over meltas is that they have twice the rate of fire. Thats twice the RoI (return on investment) It would like me asking you "Would you rather buy $100 in stocks that will return $500 in 1 year, or would you rather spend $110 in stocks that will return $1000 in the same amount of time. A 100% increase in returns is significant.
For the heavy armor, I use the MM in the bike squad, or the MM attack bikes I usually bring. I face little enough heavy armor in my games to where I don't need to oversaturate in MM -- I find a ratio of more anti-light armor better. It makes me a bit weaker to AV13 spam, but AV13 spam is just not that common. Even IG players are fielding less 'Russ in favor of more manticores (which the bikes help greatly in taking out, regarless of equipment)

Thanks for the good discussion


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Reecius wrote:Dude, I agree. Tac marines suck now. They aren't terrible, but they aren't good either. If they had a CCW, too, they'd be fantastic. As is, they shoot OK, and assault poorly.

The only thing TACs really bring is that they can be tough to kill on an objective -- in a rhino on top of an objective, or in cover on an objective. The problem is that SW do it all better and cheaper :\ Sad panda.

I agree with all your points but didn't feel like spelling it all out, well said!

Range and RoF are what gives a lot of weapons the edge over Melta weapons in your typical light mech environment. Even with just las cannons, you still stand good odds of taking down heavy armor. The only time it becomes problematic is when you encounter AV14 spam, and then, only when it is AV14 all around. The only list I would fear pulling that would be BA or Marines LR spam, but again, you don't see it often.

Yeah, Grey Hunters are what all Tac Marines should be. They fight well, they shoot well and they are flexible.

If all Tac Marines had the option to take two specials, and had a CCW, I would be all over them! But as they stand now, they just suffer in comparison to other troops choices.

I still love my scouts though.

It's one thing to look at the list and say "well, space wolves with long fangs is more firepower"...but it's super annoying because you can make the *exact same list* with space wolves. The difference being that all the Tac squads get meltaguns, the librarian becomes a rune priest with better powers...and you have 30 points left over.

Stupid space wolves.

Yeah, exactly. They just do everything better.