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From 2nd ed wargear cards, Terminator armour could have auto-launchers, plasma blastguns, aux. grenade launchers, and a few other shiny things. I imagine that's the kind of stuff the mentor legion get to play with, along with poorly copied xeno-tech - but they also work on tactics for existing equipment as well. The imperium is generally in decline technologically anyway, so they probably don't get too many toys.
For example, apparently the technique used to make grav-plates for starships has been lost, so all grav-plates must be salvaged from existing ships to build new ones. Crazy!

back on-topic, the wargear's going to have to be brand-new, so no terminator suits. If the whole chapter is founded as one, then they'll probably elect their own chapter master, but perhaps have 'advisors' from the 'founding' chapter, e.g. the one from which their geneseed is derived. They will be gradually building their own chapter cult, traditions etc, given a strategically important region to watch over (which I'm not going to reveal much about, but it should be fun) and sent forth to solidify ties between themselves and the nearby Imperial population. Most chapters select feral worlds for recruitment (and quite right too) but there'll be a lot of politics involved when it comes to determining their relationships with the various adepta and planetary organisations in the region.

Some chapters have pacts of protection and supply with planets and organisations in the region they patrol that may be thousands of years old; I quite like the idea of exploring how those pacts come about.

Also, there'll be strong elements of the 'topsy-turvy' nature of 40K development and perspective. Naturally, as RL inhabitants of an Americanised youth-focused Western world, we think, a newly-founded chapter, young and vigorous, with the latest in technology, surely they'd be badass?

But in fact the new guys are ashamed of being new, and long only to have ancient traditions and prejudices, and to not have to innovate but only to fight and die with honour.

Also, possibly a bit of relic-gathering down the line; but that's not important. (Although the recovery of a suit of MkV armour would give the whole chapter cause to celebrate).

I'm thinking as well that the interactions between a very young, ambitious, naieve but righteous chapter master and his ancient, cynical, grizzled advisor, loaned from another chapter, would give some fantastic dialogue and characterisation.

Captain Roderick wrote:From 2nd ed wargear cards, Terminator armour could have auto-launchers, plasma blastguns, aux. grenade launchers, and a few other shiny things. I imagine that's the kind of stuff the mentor legion get to play with, along with poorly copied xeno-tech - but they also work on tactics for existing equipment as well. The imperium is generally in decline technologically anyway, so they probably don't get too many toys.
For example, apparently the technique used to make grav-plates for starships has been lost, so all grav-plates must be salvaged from existing ships to build new ones. Crazy!

back on-topic, the wargear's going to have to be brand-new, so no terminator suits. If the whole chapter is founded as one, then they'll probably elect their own chapter master, but perhaps have 'advisors' from the 'founding' chapter, e.g. the one from which their geneseed is derived. They will be gradually building their own chapter cult, traditions etc, given a strategically important region to watch over (which I'm not going to reveal much about, but it should be fun) and sent forth to solidify ties between themselves and the nearby Imperial population. Most chapters select feral worlds for recruitment (and quite right too) but there'll be a lot of politics involved when it comes to determining their relationships with the various adepta and planetary organisations in the region.

Some chapters have pacts of protection and supply with planets and organisations in the region they patrol that may be thousands of years old; I quite like the idea of exploring how those pacts come about.

Also, there'll be strong elements of the 'topsy-turvy' nature of 40K development and perspective. Naturally, as RL inhabitants of an Americanised youth-focused Western world, we think, a newly-founded chapter, young and vigorous, with the latest in technology, surely they'd be badass?

But in fact the new guys are ashamed of being new, and long only to have ancient traditions and prejudices, and to not have to innovate but only to fight and die with honour.

Also, possibly a bit of relic-gathering down the line; but that's not important. (Although the recovery of a suit of MkV armour would give the whole chapter cause to celebrate).

I'm thinking as well that the interactions between a very young, ambitious, naieve but righteous chapter master and his ancient, cynical, grizzled advisor, loaned from another chapter, would give some fantastic dialogue and characterisation.

If we go specifically by the what is written in C:SM all chapters maintain a number of suits of terminator armor, it is just rare. Meaning that it could still be produced, since if it couldn't pretty much only primogenitor chapters would probably have them. The notion of them all being universally ancient suits comes from the bit of fluff which states a sliver of the Emperor's armor is embedded in the Crux...this has somewhat been brushed aside in the new books. Remember that they generally mention even the basic suits of power armor to be ancient artifacts worn by heroes past, which logically we know could not be the case since by attrition alone you would have naked marines if they didn't get new armor. The chapter artificers would be able to hunt down and recover a lot of gear but definitely not all.

Maybe you could explore the pacts some chapters make with the Rogue Traders. A new chapter could possibly make a pact with an explorer and find a homeworld that way, or aquire artifacts, or salvage war gear, or even get a bit of the profit to aquire more materials

That's a pretty fun idea - depends on how that would impact on their allotted mission, but actually fits quite well with what I had in mind, come to think of it. Some wily SoB to add more conflict to the tale...

Terminator and Land Raiders are still produced but they are just really hard to make. But i think the Admech would supply them with a few amount of them just in case.

Considering a chapter only needs about 120 Terminator suits, they must be very difficult to make indeed if they can't assemble enough to equip a new chapter every few hundred years.

Kilkrazy wrote:Considering a chapter only needs about 120 Terminator suits, they must be very difficult to make indeed if they can't assemble enough to equip a new chapter every few hundred years.

Where did you get the number 120? O.o
120 is only dark angels. Ultramarines only have 50.
And blood angels only have 72.

Kilkrazy wrote:Considering a chapter only needs about 120 Terminator suits, they must be very difficult to make indeed if they can't assemble enough to equip a new chapter every few hundred years.

Just an excuse to post that gorgeous image. Considering how much hassle it is putting the suits on, and the way the Imperium goes about making/engineering things, plus the fact that a lot of suits are often lost and must be replaced due to the mad-ass Imperial 'send our irreplaceable best troops into space hulks' tactics, means it's pretty likely they are always going to be at a premium, and replacing those that are lost will be a constant drain probably similar to the rate at which they are produced.

I'm thinking even 5-10 suits for a brand new chapter would be pretty lucky...

Another interesting piece of information from Imperial Armour IX had the Adeptus Mechanicus very generously supply brand new strike cruisers (one each) to the Novamarines and Blood Drinkers. The strike cruisers were constructed at Triplex Phall and took thirty years to complete.

If the Adeptus Mechanicus can produce strike cruisers to the extent that can gift two away, an unusual act of benevolence to be sure, but they had the manufacturing capacity to still gift two away. In that case it doesn't seem unreasonable that a new Chapter would start off its service with new ships. By extention it does not seem unreasonable that each new Chapter will get some Terminator armour as well, as such armour is often vital for certain missions; Chapters with only a few suits will simply be far, far more sparing in using them.

Interesting. So I'm leaning towards the founding taking place in the Terran system now, since so much of the work and bureaucracy takes place there, then the newly made marines head off to their new area of responsibility to kick bums and take names.

I think it does give quite an interesting angle to things, in terms of the emphasis Astartes place on their forebears and ancestry, to have the founding fathers of their chapter hailing from the Terran system; thusly, Terra would always be held in high respect by future generations of the chapter, for more than mere fealty - for being the homeworld of their most legendary warriors.

It's reflected quite nicely in the HH books, but obviously within the Founding Legions, the Terran Astartes were nowhere near as important to the battle brethren as their Primarch was, who (from their perspective) came from the Homeworld. It is a dang good thing there's no Primarchs around any more, they just naturally create a cult of personality around them.

Oh dear god, I think I just found myself agreeing with Roboute....

It's also possible that Chapters from the same Founding could also form bonds of kinship or even enmity so that's always something that can be explored.

Captain Roderick wrote:Interesting. So I'm leaning towards the founding taking place in the Terran system now, since so much of the work and bureaucracy takes place there, then the newly made marines head off to their new area of responsibility to kick bums and take names.

I think it does give quite an interesting angle to things, in terms of the emphasis Astartes place on their forebears and ancestry, to have the founding fathers of their chapter hailing from the Terran system; thusly, Terra would always be held in high respect by future generations of the chapter, for more than mere fealty - for being the homeworld of their most legendary warriors.

It's reflected quite nicely in the HH books, but obviously within the Founding Legions, the Terran Astartes were nowhere near as important to the battle brethren as their Primarch was, who (from their perspective) came from the Homeworld. It is a dang good thing there's no Primarchs around any more, they just naturally create a cult of personality around them.

Oh dear god, I think I just found myself agreeing with Roboute....

If you do draw from Terra, or the surrounding system, a likely source of candidates would be the underhivers and gangs. The Astartes generally want a born killer (often from Death Worlds), already acclimated to a harsh life to help ensure that the aspirant can handle severe challenge of becoming a marine.

Gridge wrote:If you do draw from Terra, or the surrounding system, a likely source of candidates would be the underhivers and gangs. The Astartes generally want a born killer (often from Death Worlds), already acclimated to a harsh life to help ensure that the aspirant can handle severe challenge of becoming a marine.

Yeah, that's something I'm finding a little difficult to get my teeth into - if they're founding in the Sol system, do all of the new recruits therefore come from there, and if so, and we want them to adhere to the standard Astartes archetype, isn't it therefore a bit limiting, a bit plain? every chapter was founded with gang hivers before becoming death worlders later. Having looked into Terra a little, it is the most overpopulated planet in the Imperium, with land so expensive that 1 square metre on earth costs as much as a spire-palace on another hiveworld, so I suppose there's something to be played with there...

I think I'm going to ruminate on this one a bit to try and figure out where they might come from. After all, it could simply be a case of the High Council and Martian Priesthood picking people purely for political and genetic reasons to begin with, and who goes out and picks them? who actually rounds up the first few thousand recruits for implantation, then trains them, and says 'hey, I know you're only 25, but anyway here's the codex, live by it, and now bugger off across the galaxy and kick some teeth in'?

Most peturbatory.

@ Gogsnik - yes, that's definitely a possibility, something to be played with down the line, and reflected upon.

Captain Roderick wrote:Interesting. So I'm leaning towards the founding taking place in the Terran system now, since so much of the work and bureaucracy takes place there, then the newly made marines head off to their new area of responsibility to kick bums and take names.

It sounds really nice.

Actually, if you decide to set the creation of this chapter near the terran system, it pretty much solves all your concerns about equipment. You could easily claim that their original equipment came from the foundries of Mars. This would mean that your new chapter would be gifted at its creation the most efficient and reliable sets of equipment produced in the entire IoM.
It would also mean that the new chapter could possibly be granted more than two and a half suits of termy armor at its creation (if I remember well, Mars is one of the few FW that still retain the knowledge and production facilities to produce full suits of terminator armour). You could even say that Mars gave the Chapter Master one suit of Mark3c "Grey Knights" pattern termy armour. This would make a nice piece of background for your chapter as well as a shiny chapter relic (along with a badass mini for the chapter master ).

In addition, Ryza is only a few hundred LY from Holy Terra. You could easily claim that the plasma equipment of your chapter came from this FW. Why not even state that for this reason, your chapter grew fond of these weapons (and allow you to field 15 plasma launchers per tactical squad ).

Seriously, setting the creation of your chapter near the solar system pretty much allows to state anything about the original equipment of your chapter.

I suppose my concerns weren't really about whether they'd have cool toys or not - I just wanted to make sure I had the canon right terminator armour or no terminator armour, so long as I've got it canonically correct, it's no matter.

I'm still not really happy with the idea of a prepubescent, feral hive ganger - even one born on Terra - ending up as the commander of a whole Chapter of Astartes before he's even 30. Which is how it's got to be if they're going to be created wholesale, and actually see any action...

Captain Roderick wrote:I suppose my concerns weren't really about whether they'd have cool toys or not - I just wanted to make sure I had the canon right terminator armour or no terminator armour, so long as I've got it canonically correct, it's no matter.

I'm still not really happy with the idea of a prepubescent, feral hive ganger - even one born on Terra - ending up as the commander of a whole Chapter of Astartes before he's even 30. Which is how it's got to be if they're going to be created wholesale, and actually see any action...

The issue of Chapter command is still a sticky one. I doubt they would put an inexperienced warrior in command of resource of this magnitude and expense. It would still seem likely that command would be drawn from the primogenitors (even if just to ensure the newbies are brought up right and adhere to the codex or at least to the doctrine of their parent chapter). A new marine in charge of a chapter that has not been time and battle tested is just asking for heresy. Perhaps they could even draw commanders from the Deathwatch in a pinch.

Asherian Command wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Considering a chapter only needs about 120 Terminator suits, they must be very difficult to make indeed if they can't assemble enough to equip a new chapter every few hundred years.

Where did you get the number 120? O.o
120 is only dark angels. Ultramarines only have 50.
And blood angels only have 72.

The TO&E specifies 100 suits ready for combat.

Obviously more are required for training and to provide coverage while suits are being maintained and repaired. I made an allowance of 20% for those purposes.

How many forge worlds are there capable of producing terminator suits?

Captain Roderick wrote:I'm still not really happy with the idea of a prepubescent, feral hive ganger - even one born on Terra - ending up as the commander of a whole Chapter of Astartes before he's even 30. Which is how it's got to be if they're going to be created wholesale, and actually see any action...

I've discussed this before, although perhaps not in this forum, but who says a Chapter takes only thirty years to train? As I said earlier, Astartes could be in training at various times and are called forth to become a Chapter when necessary. These Marines could have spent many decades in training, they could have been on various missions throughout the galaxy or at least the Segmenta in which they are being created. It's even plausible to say that new Chapters are trained almost to destruction, well perhaps 'to destruction' is hyperbolic, but the training itself could be as dangerous and as arduous as the Adeptus Mechanicus/Terra desire. The Marines could be pitted against all manner of alien gribblies or servitors that would test even the most battle-hardened Astartes. The natural leaders would come to the fore during this period and begin taking positions of authority and their tactical and strategic abilities would be well honed before the Chapter was ever allowed out on its own.

There is nothing to suggest that when a Chapter is Founded that its Marines were simply trained until they had all of their implants and are then unleashed on the galaxy, personally I would say that seems the least likely thing to happen. As far as we know from the background, the Mechanicus spend fifty-five years simply building up the required stock of zygotes, it doesn't follow that the Chapter will be Founded in less time than that. Compared to existing Chapters that may be several millennia old or more then a Chapter which is only a couple of centuries old will seem young but there is no need to assume that the Chapter has not fought and trained together for an incredibly long time before its official Founding, plenty of time for officers, Chaplains et el to have taken up their positions within the Chapter.

Of course that all assumes that the Chapter itself is instantly viable, that every recruit takes to implantation, that they do not die in training. I would say it would take many decades of careful monitoring to ensure that all the candidates that survive implantation are not going to mutate into slavering fiends and self-destruct. I can see the Chapter creation process taking many, many decades before any 'real' training begins and the potential Chapter gets its hands on all of the equipment and materiel it will need to prosecute its duties in the future.

So perhaps having independent companies sent on missions directly by the High Lords - or anyone else in the Adeptus Terra or Segmentum Solar command - is a potential aspect of their training? Maybe even strike forces made up of multiple chapters from the same founding is a possibility?

I'm still wondering how the 'founding chapter' influence might come into play - your idea about having veterans from various chapters around to oversee the process, is now seeming more political - surely a lot of the most highly-regarded chapters would have representatives on Terra, if not actually on the High Council, and if they're that highly regarded, isn't it natural for them to be chosen as Founding Chapters? Thus the Ultramarines having such close relations with so many descendents, they've always had their grubby hands in Imperial Politics.

Thusly also, the chapters that are in favour will wax and wane over the ages, giving rise to different chapters having successors at different periods. Although obviously the Ultramarines have a firm grip on matters.

The Astral Claws had a successor of course, back when they were in the good books - they probably had a rep on Terra too...

Kilkrazy wrote:
How many forge worlds are there capable of producing terminator suits?

I don't think it was ever stated by GW how many forge worlds are capable of producing termy suits. What is sure is that building terminator armour is extremely difficult and costly. Most forge worlds lost the ability to produce these suits. Others are only capable of manufacturing small components of the terminator armour. The forge worlds that are still able to produce complete suits of terminator armor are extremely rare. They are usually the oldest and best equipped of forge worlds.

Among these few planets, Mars is the only forge world that resumed the "terminator program" after the HH and continues developping new patterns of terminator suits. Hence, most of the suits from the Mark3c series (the latest stage of development of terminator armour) are produced on Mars.

Captain Roderick wrote:So perhaps having independent companies sent on missions directly by the High Lords - or anyone else in the Adeptus Terra or Segmentum Solar command - is a potential aspect of their training? Maybe even strike forces made up of multiple chapters from the same founding is a possibility?

I'm still wondering how the 'founding chapter' influence might come into play - your idea about having veterans from various chapters around to oversee the process, is now seeming more political - surely a lot of the most highly-regarded chapters would have representatives on Terra, if not actually on the High Council, and if they're that highly regarded, isn't it natural for them to be chosen as Founding Chapters? Thus the Ultramarines having such close relations with so many descendents, they've always had their grubby hands in Imperial Politics.

Thusly also, the chapters that are in favour will wax and wane over the ages, giving rise to different chapters having successors at different periods. Although obviously the Ultramarines have a firm grip on matters.

The Astral Claws had a successor of course, back when they were in the good books - they probably had a rep on Terra too...

My own theory about the training of the chapter is that 10 scout companies play support roles under the guidance of the chapters officers who come from the donating chapter.

purplefood - indeed, the Cadre theory. It's pretty common, and I think there'll be small elements of that in what I do, there's unfortunately no canon references to it at all.

Captain Roderick wrote:purplefood - indeed, the Cadre theory. It's pretty common, and I think there'll be small elements of that in what I do, there's unfortunately no canon references to it at all.

Considering there are basically no canon references to any of the founding process and the theory makes sense i'm willling to back it and defend it.

Captain Roderick wrote:So perhaps having independent companies sent on missions directly by the High Lords - or anyone else in the Adeptus Terra or Segmentum Solar command - is a potential aspect of their training? Maybe even strike forces made up of multiple chapters from the same founding is a possibility?

I very much like the idea of a political side to things and certainly we know that the High Lords engage in all manner of deals which don't necessarily do much for the Imperium but certainly help their careers. We can see something of this sort with the Minotaurs. I read a review for Imperial Armour 10 (I haven't got the book so I can't verify the information but it seemed legitimate) where the Minotaurs are basically in hoc to the High Lords and take on whatever missions they see fit, so if the High Lords want someone taken out then the Minotaurs have to go and take care of the problem. If a fully fledged Chapter can be compelled in this way then I see nothing that would provent un-Founded Astartes being used in the same way, or at least sent on missions as part of their training regime.

Looking back at the Novamarines example I provided earlier they sent some of their 'Brethren', what rank or role they play in the Novamarines Chapter is not specified, to help in the process of Founding Ultramarines gene-seed derived Chapters. If that were the case in a more general sense then the Adeptus Mechanicum/Terra could potentially request the assistance of any Chapter who would be cousins to the Chapter/s being Founded; which makes the most sense with an Ultramarines gene-seed derived Chapter as they are the most reliable, or perhaps we might say, malleable.

Those Chapters that more-or-less tell the Adeptus Terra where to stick it are not likely to have their gene-seed used. However, going back to the political idea, from the Space Wolf novels we see Space Wolves sending Marines to Terra as part of their ancient pact with the Navigator Houses. Now what if these envoys whilst at Terra also do a little politiking? Perhaps they could ask the Paternoval Envoy to put in a good word for them next time a Founding is being decreed and perhaps some future Chapter will use their gene-seed or gene-seed from a related Chapter. If you were to subscribe to the Cadre theory then it makes even more sense since the extant Chapter could potentially have a brand new Chapter that uses their gene-seed and moulded in their own image. Otherwise the point is simply that if there are going to be some new Chapters created they may as well use your gene-seed rather than anothers.

Captain Roderick wrote:

Gridge wrote:If you do draw from Terra, or the surrounding system, a likely source of candidates would be the underhivers and gangs. The Astartes generally want a born killer (often from Death Worlds), already acclimated to a harsh life to help ensure that the aspirant can handle severe challenge of becoming a marine.

Yeah, that's something I'm finding a little difficult to get my teeth into - if they're founding in the Sol system, do all of the new recruits therefore come from there, and if so, and we want them to adhere to the standard Astartes archetype, isn't it therefore a bit limiting, a bit plain? every chapter was founded with gang hivers before becoming death worlders later. Having looked into Terra a little, it is the most overpopulated planet in the Imperium, with land so expensive that 1 square metre on earth costs as much as a spire-palace on another hiveworld, so I suppose there's something to be played with there...

I think I'm going to ruminate on this one a bit to try and figure out where they might come from. After all, it could simply be a case of the High Council and Martian Priesthood picking people purely for political and genetic reasons to begin with, and who goes out and picks them? who actually rounds up the first few thousand recruits for implantation, then trains them, and says 'hey, I know you're only 25, but anyway here's the codex, live by it, and now bugger off across the galaxy and kick some teeth in'?

Most peturbatory.

@ Gogsnik - yes, that's definitely a possibility, something to be played with down the line, and reflected upon.

for pyskers and chaplains you need to recruit from the specified orders that actually do want to get recruited from the astrates. Lets see the Order Pyskanna does it.

purplefood wrote:
Considering there are basically no canon references to any of the founding process and the theory makes sense i'm willling to back it and defend it.

As is your right I don't think I'm going with it though, as Gogsnik mentioned earlier it breeds too much familiarity between chapters, causing problems like the Badab War. Part of the point in the Codex is to prevent any individual (apart from the high lords, of course) from wielding influence over more than 1000 Astartes, and having the Founding chapter have too much influence over the new one betrays that principle.

@ Asherian - I had a read of Index Astartes today, the entry in that says that Astartes sometimes draw Librarians from the Scholastica Psykana, and the Black Ships as well - it's just more common for them to pick out their Librarians from their recruiting pool.

Captain Roderick wrote:

purplefood wrote:
Considering there are basically no canon references to any of the founding process and the theory makes sense i'm willling to back it and defend it.

As is your right I don't think I'm going with it though, as Gogsnik mentioned earlier it breeds too much familiarity between chapters, causing problems like the Badab War. Part of the point in the Codex is to prevent any individual (apart from the high lords, of course) from wielding influence over more than 1000 Astartes, and having the Founding chapter have too much influence over the new one betrays that principle.

@ Asherian - I had a read of Index Astartes today, the entry in that says that Astartes sometimes draw Librarians from the Scholastica Psykana, and the Black Ships as well - it's just more common for them to pick out their Librarians from their recruiting pool.

Chapters will always mix and have alligences to each other...
Admittedly this alligence would be stronger than one made later on but the Ultramarines (As an example) have a massive amount of inter-astartes political power, a new chapter would need training from other astartes IMO but i can see why the IoM may not like that aspect of the training.

I agree completely that new Chapters require other Astartes to train them. My own gripe with the Cadre theory is that more often than not people have the gene-seed from Chapter X used to create a new Chapter and then Chapter X send officers to take over that Chapter. Helping to train new Marines is one thing, getting a brand new Chapter to take charge of is entirely another.

We also see arms, armour and materiel being given away to new Chapters too and personally I just don't see that happening and there's no real need for it either.

I don't pretend my own theory is perfect, far from it and there is no evidence of Chapters being created in the Sol System that just makes sense to me, but I find it to be a less intrusive way of getting Astartes to train new Chapters; those Chapters involved don't lose anything or have to give anything away and neither do they get to unduly influence new Chapters, they simply provide the benefit of their experience and with more than one Chapter participating it gives a wide range of experience and combat styles as well as allowing a new Chapter to form bonds with other Chapters which again helps to stop one Chapter from having too much sway over them.