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The quickest way to remove the mystique from guns is to take a kid to a firing range and putting one in their hands. The first time that 20 gauge or 9mm knocks them on their little ass they will comprehend immediately that this device is not a toy and it can indeed hurt someone.

All the "be careful" and "safety" speeches in the world didn't do me as much good as the first time I pulled the trigger on a shotgun and I thought it was going to tear my arm off when I was 10. Instantaneous comprehension that this thing was dangerous, it could hurt me, and it could really hurt someone else. They got treated with the utmost respect from there on out.

The problem I think is that too many people own guns without ever bothering to teach their kids about them. They become just another of those things their parents never allow them to touch which of course makes them utterly irresistible.

Tyyr wrote:The quickest way to remove the mystique from guns is to take a kid to a firing range and putting one in their hands.

You also have people who give their kid an uzi at a gun show and he shoots himself and dies as happened recently...

Tyyr wrote:The quickest way to remove the mystique from guns is to take a kid to a firing range and putting one in their hands. The first time that 20 gauge or 9mm knocks them on their little ass they will comprehend immediately that this device is not a toy and it can indeed hurt someone.

All the "be careful" and "safety" speeches in the world didn't do me as much good as the first time I pulled the trigger on a shotgun and I thought it was going to tear my arm off when I was 10. Instantaneous comprehension that this thing was dangerous, it could hurt me, and it could really hurt someone else. They got treated with the utmost respect from there on out.

This. 100 times. I honestly couldn't have said it better myself.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

CT GAMER wrote:

Tyyr wrote:The quickest way to remove the mystique from guns is to take a kid to a firing range and putting one in their hands.

You also have people who give their kid an uzi at a gun show and he shoots himself and dies as happened recently...

Well you don't just toss a loaded gun at a little kid and say, "have fun!"

The fault in this case more than likely lies with the parent for not showing their kid how to properly and safely use the gun.

The experience of shooting a gun doesn't replace lessons on safety, it reinforces them.



And also, at least in my opinion, uzis and the like are stupid. You don't really need full auto anything, and you sure as hell don't need it in such a small package.

And what the feth was a loaded Uzi doing at a gun show in a condition where it could fire?

Tyyr wrote:The quickest way to remove the mystique from guns is to take a kid to a firing range and putting one in their hands. The first time that 20 gauge or 9mm knocks them on their little ass they will comprehend immediately that this device is not a toy and it can indeed hurt someone.

All the "be careful" and "safety" speeches in the world didn't do me as much good as the first time I pulled the trigger on a shotgun and I thought it was going to tear my arm off when I was 10. Instantaneous comprehension that this thing was dangerous, it could hurt me, and it could really hurt someone else. They got treated with the utmost respect from there on out.

The problem I think is that too many people own guns without ever bothering to teach their kids about them. They become just another of those things their parents never allow them to touch which of course makes them utterly irresistible.

Genghis Connie likes shooting 9mm...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyyr wrote:And what the feth was a loaded Uzi doing at a gun show in a condition where it could fire?

They apparently had a range in the back of the gun show where you could shoot. Thats the only thing I can figure out. Otherwise yea, thats crazy nuts.

Here is the story.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,444180,00.html

rubiksnoob wrote:

Well you don't just toss a loaded gun at a little kid and say, "have fun!"

And I would argue that I'd rather not gamble a child's life & safety on the degree of stupidty to which his parents might or mght not possess.

I'm not for gun control in any form, and I think this law is dumb. I had tons of toy guns and weapons when I was a kid, as did everyone I knew.

However I don't agree with your assertion that we need to throw guns in every kids hands as some rite of passage, especially when any error of judgement on the part of the parents or accident on the child's part could be life ending. The lesson just isn't relevant enough to take that risk imho...

Not to mention I think intentionally putting small children within reach of guns for sport or taking them to an event the purpose of which is to amass lots of guns and ammunition into a small area fto be handled, demonstrated and fired is poor judgement to begin with at best and akin to child endangerment at worst...

CT GAMER wrote:

rubiksnoob wrote:

Well you don't just toss a loaded gun at a little kid and say, "have fun!"

And I would argue that I'd rather not gamble a child's life & safety on the degree of stupidty to which his parents might or mght not possess.

I'm not for gun control in any form, and I think this law is dumb. I had tons of toy guns and weapons when I was a kid, as did everyone I knew.

However I don't agree with your assertion that we need to throw guns in every kids hands as some rite of passage, especially when any error of judgement on the part of the parents or accident on the child's part could be life ending. The lesson just isn't relevant enough to take that risk imho...

Meh, you're a yankee. Do they even allow guns where you live? (legally, not the criminals, I'm sure they have them).

It actually is a "rite of passage," for many, especially countryfolk. Everyone I grew up with had a light rifle of some sort in their hands when they were 12, some slightly younger.

I remember the first time my Dad took me, just as I remember the first time I took SWMBO, and each of the kids. Course we didn't have uzis, or MAC-10's or noe of that nonsense.
"No one will bully Mom. She'll shoot 'em."
-Genghis Connie, on bullying, and also on how to keep men in line...

Kilkrazy wrote:Here is the story.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,444180,00.html

That's just senseless. No one in their right mind would let an 8 year old fire an uzi. That's just the parent being stupid and his son paying the ultimate price as a result. It's unfortunate and tragic.

Frazzled wrote:
Meh, you're a yankee. Do they even allow guns where you live? (legally, not the criminals, I'm sure they have them).

Well I grew up in Maine, and lots of people had firearms, more then they had teeth usually...

I would have been scared as hell to be around a good number of the "responsibe adults" from my childhood had they been brandishing a boom stick.

As for CT, we settle our disagreements with a gentlemen's duel, usually after throwing a glove in the offender's face...

Frazzled wrote:Genghis Connie likes shooting 9mm...

And after I got used to it I loved the 20 gauge, but that first shot scared the gak out of me.

Frazzled wrote:They apparently had a range in the back of the gun show where you could shoot. Thats the only thing I can figure out. Otherwise yea, thats crazy nuts.

I suppose. All the shows I've been too have been in convention centers or the like so that was never an option. You could bring all the guns you wanted but they couldn't be loaded and they had to be secured inoperable with bright orange zip ties. Still, handing a fully automatic submachine gun to a kid is idiotic. We're talking about responsible parenting, not morons with kids.

CT GAMER wrote:As for CT, we settle our disagreements with a gentlemen's duel, usually after throwing a glove in the offender's face...

Chocolate caske is better, then its a no lose situation for everyone. Cake!!!

suppose. All the shows I've been too have been in convention centers or the like so that was never an option. You could bring all the guns you wanted but they couldn't be loaded and they had to be secured inoperable with bright orange zip ties. Still, handing a fully automatic submachine gun to a kid is idiotic. We're talking about responsible parenting, not morons with kids.

Reading the Fox article it sounds not at all like a gun show but some sort of get together at the range/club. Sounds almost like a fair. The reports are too dense to figure out what it really was.

Kilkrazy wrote:Here is the story.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,444180,00.html

"This tragedy is a mystery"
*twitch*

No, it's not. No it's fething not you fething moron. They let an EIGHT YEAR OLD grab a fully loaded and ready to fire uzi you worthless gakker, what did you expect would happen, flowers and sunshine? Grr.

CT GAMER wrote:

rubiksnoob wrote:

Well you don't just toss a loaded gun at a little kid and say, "have fun!"

And I would argue that I'd rather not gamble a child's life & safety on the degree of stupidty to which his parents might or mght not possess.

I'm not for gun control in any form, and I think this law is dumb. I had tons of toy guns and weapons when I was a kid, as did everyone I knew.

However I don't agree with your assertion that we need to throw guns in every kids hands as some rite of passage, especially when any error of judgement on the part of the parents or accident on the child's part could be life ending. The lesson just isn't relevant enough to take that risk imho...

I'm not advocating giving every kid a glock and sending them off with a pat on the head. Far from it.
What I'm saying is that kids are less likely to treat guns as toys or playthings if they've fired one before.

Instead of just giving a child speech after speech about gun safety, give them speech after speech about gun safety and have them actually fire a gun with VERY close supervision and guidance. And for feths sake, don't give them a fething uzi!

As far as gun control goes, I'm all for the banning of all fully automatic and some semi-automatic weapons, depending on rate of fire and ease of operation. And allowing a child to fire a full auto weapon should be made a felony. There just isn't any sitution in which a fully automatic weapon is neccessary, excepting warfare.

Kilkrazy wrote:Here is the story.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,444180,00.html

A fething micro-Uzi, "no recoil", and an 8 year old. Someone sterilize that man.

CT GAMER wrote:And I would argue that I'd rather not gamble a child's life & safety on the degree of stupidty to which his parents might or mght not possess.

Children's lives are always in danger due to the degree of stupidity of their parents.

However I don't agree with your assertion that we need to throw guns in every kids hands as some rite of passage, especially when any error of judgement on the part of the parents or accident on the child's part could be life ending. The lesson just isn't relevant enough to take that risk imho...

Yeah, because we all hand our kids fully automatic weapons and let them do as they please with them. For feths sake get a grip. No one is talking about handing a kid a gun and a box of cartridges and hoping for the best. You take them to the range and teach them about the weapons. Show them how they work, what they can do, the proper way to handle them, and how to use them. Then you let the kid try for themselves in a controlled manner. First of all, they only get one round at a time. So when the gun goes off if they freak out the thing is empty when they drop it or it twists in their grip or whatever. If you need to you brace them or help them with the first couple shots.

The most important part is that you're not a fething moron giving a 8 year old a fully automatic weapon they couldn't hope to control. Use some common sense.

Well full auto weapons are generally illegal in the first place, so thats not really an issue.

The rate of accidental death caused by guns to children is pretty low, actually.

http://www.med.umich.edu/yourchild/topics/guns.htm

If people are concerned about it, I should suggest the best thing would be a training programme leading to a licence, as with cars. However I think that might contravene the 2nd Amendment, and may be impossible.

Tyyr wrote:
Children's lives are always in danger due to the degree of stupidity of their parents.

Yes to an extent, but the voluntary introduction of certain settings and items certainly ups the anty.

If I have zero firearms in my house and don't take my children to shoot them or be around them then the degree of danger is far lower then consciously putting them into contact with them, even if the intent is to "educate" no?

If I smoke or take my kids to places in which people do, I am increasing the danger of second hand smoke effecting them fa more then if I don't smoke or attempt to limit their exposire to it.

That is our responsibility/obligation as parents. Yes many things in life are potentially dangerous to children, even more reason to limit/avoid the ones we are able to imo.

As a parent I would rather air on the side of caurion when it comes to my own kids. It does not require the firing of guns to respect them or be taught about the danger.

I don't have to let my nine year old drive the car in order to teach him the importance of wearing his seatbelt, etc.

I'd rather not gamble with the lives of my childen, even if I think the situation is controlled.

Any chance of death is too great as far as I'm concened if I can otherwise avoid it through choice when it comes to my own kids. You obviously think the benfits outweigh the risks.

If you read the quotes of that father he had the best intentions as well, and felt no danger in taking his son to a location filled with guns and ammuntion.

Kids don't chose their parents, and count on their parents to keep them safe. A good start would be to not seek out situations like such imho...

SO when would you take kids around guns CT?

Is it possible to ban the use of any and all Frazzleds?

Frazzled wrote:SO when would you take kids around guns CT?

Personally?

I wouldn't make a point to take my own children around them. I wouldn't attend a gun show with them. I wouldn't try to arrange a trip to a gun range with them, etc. We have no guns in our house so they have zero danger of coming into contact with one in our home/daily lives. In short I would not purposely introduce them to an environment with guns or ask them to fire them as I don't see the need nor feel the introduction of such potential risk is a wise parenting choice.

I know people that have guns. this fact factors in to what houses my children have play dates at, etc.

I have discussed gun safety with them: that is adequate at this point in our lives.


Again I have no issue with gun owership and do not support gun control. I do however endeavour to keep my children as safe as possible and take issue with actions that border on child endangerment such as putting firearms into young children's hands, even under supposedly "controlled" situations.

Other people make other choices...

WarOne wrote:Is it possible to ban the use of any and all Frazzleds?

I have a deadman switch at all times for just such an event. Attempting banning of Frazzled will results in the explosive bolts firing, releasing Dachshundkrieg. Now give me pie!

Well, other than my current job, the only time is ever use a firearm is for sport, but the view of not having a firearm around but still teaching firearm safety is an excellent idea. The only reason I was exposed so soon is because I grew up in a family where every member of my family did some form of hunting, so there were always firearms around, so my family started teaching me early so I knew right from wrong.

And for those using a firearm for home defense, if you have a uzi or a MAC-12 for home defense, you are wrong and are more likely to hurt someone in your own home, sheetrock and wood will not stop a solid slug.

I wouldn't make a point to take my own children around them. I wouldn't attend a gun show with them. I wouldn't try to arrange a trip to a gun range with them, etc. We have no guns in our house so they have zero danger of coming into contact with one in our home/daily lives. In short I would not purposely introduce them to an environment with guns or ask them to fire them as I don't see the need nor feel the introduction of such potential risk is a wise parenting choice.
***Ever? Here we hunt, target shoot, etc. its part of our lives and culture, like fishing and brain surgery.

I know people that have guns. this fact factors in to what houses my children have play dates at, etc.
***Some yankee newly moved to Texas asked if we had guns in the house once, we just laughed and told them this was Texas, everyone has guns in the house.

I have discussed gun safety with them: that is adequate at this point in our lives.
***I’ve seen videoed studies of kids. The study teaches the kids safety and then they see a (fake) gun on the table. Within a minute they are playing with the gun. It turns out age means a lot for safety to take. Be aware of that depending on the ages of your nefarious youth’s (but not just gun safety, any safety, real little buggers don’t physically get it yet).

When the kids were younger we brought out fake guns and real guns, especially some close looking fake guns. Showed them the weight and how metal looks different but also if any doubt, assume it’s real. Did the same for knives.



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btemple0 wrote:And for those using a firearm for home defense, if you have a uzi or a MAC-12 for home defense, you are wrong and are more likely to hurt someone in your own home, sheetrock and wood will not stop a solid slug.

MAC-12? Back in my day only had Mac-10s and were glad we had them. Who am I kidding, back in my day we had sharpened sticks and were glad we had them.

This is the third or fourth time that I've seen a thread say "sex is bad, but violence is good." I think kids having barbies is sexual exploration just as much as having a toy gun let's them play around with violent stuff. All this legislation does is make stuff more inconvenient for a group of people that probably would have their parents buying stuff for them in the first place.

CT GAMER wrote:

Frazzled wrote:SO when would you take kids around guns CT?

Personally?

I wouldn't make a point to take my own children around them. I wouldn't attend a gun show with them. I wouldn't try to arrange a trip to a gun range with them, etc. We have no guns in our house so they have zero danger of coming into contact with one in our home/daily lives. In short I would not purposely introduce them to an environment with guns or ask them to fire them as I don't see the need nor feel the introduction of such potential risk is a wise parenting choice.

I know people that have guns. this fact factors in to what houses my children have play dates at, etc.

I have discussed gun safety with them: that is adequate at this point in our lives.


Again I have no issue with gun owership and do not support gun control. I do however endeavour to keep my children as safe as possible and take issue with actions that border on child endangerment such as putting firearms into young children's hands, even under supposedly "controlled" situations.

Other people make other choices...

Well it's your decision to make with your own kids, I respect that.

It is just my opinion, based upon my own experiences, that having fired a gun leads to a greater respect for safety around firearms.

But I suppose that it isn't exactly practical if you don't own guns and never plan to. However, if a parent does own a gun(s), then I think that taking their child to the range every now and then would build a healthy respect for gun-safety. It certainly did for me.

Our family owns several guns, and I myself was the proud recipient of a 20 gauge shotgun for my 13th birthday. I was probably 10 or 11 the first time I shot a gun, and it made the fact that these things were dangerous a lot more clear than any talk my dad gave me.

CT GAMER wrote:Yes to an extent, but the voluntary introduction of certain settings and items certainly ups the anty.

Living at all ups the anty. Teaching them to use a knife, play with toys small enough to be swallowed, allowing them to plug things in, eventually teaching them to drive. All up the anty and increase the danger in a child's life. However we do them anyway don't we? Why? They're valuable life skills/important for the kids to know about so as to avoid putting themselves in danger. I keep my guns locked up and my ammo seperate so I'm not worried about my kids. To mitigate that further I intend to take my boy to the range when he gets to be about ten so he can learn to respect the guns. The manner I intend to teach him about them in will be the same one I was taught in which was very safe and posed little to no danger to him or anyone else. Like taking a 15 year old to an empty parking lot late at night so they can learn to drive.

If I have zero firearms in my house and don't take my children to shoot them or be around them then the degree of danger is far lower then consciously putting them into contact with them, even if the intent is to "educate" no?

Yes, but can you guarantee that their friend's parents will have no guns? What if someone at their school shows up with a gun one day to show it off? You can guarantee your child doesn't contact them in your home but they aren't going to stay in your home forever. I'd rather my child know about firearms, how to handle and deal with them, and to properly respect them than insulate them from them and hope they don't come into contact with them one day when I'm not around to supervise or protect them.

You can say the degree of risk is lower but at some point the risk stops being a real one. There's a "risk" that I'll win the lottery if I buy a ticket. No sane human being actually expects that "risk" to pay out though.

That is our responsibility/obligation as parents. Yes many things in life are potentially dangerous to children, even more reason to limit/avoid the ones we are able to imo.

And in m view the best course of action isn't to just preach at them and hope for the best. In this case its simple and safe to let a child have experience with firearms to put a real practical face on that preaching. You can say guns are dangerous till you're blue in the face, but nothing will communicate that as well as that first half second after they pull the trigger on a shotgun. Again, I speak from personal experience, nothing my parents ever said to me convinced me they were right so much as the first time I fired a gun for myself.

As a parent I would rather air on the side of caurion when it comes to my own kids. It does not require the firing of guns to respect them or be taught about the danger.

No, but as a parent myself and a former kid most of them learn better from experience than telling them.

I don't have to let my nine year old drive the car in order to teach him the importance of wearing his seatbelt, etc.

Because no one in their right mind would intentionally get them in a car crash for the proof. I can however take my kid to the range and let them fire a gun safely and inexpensively.

I'd rather not gamble with the lives of my childen, even if I think the situation is controlled.

First of all you do, every time you drive. Secondly at some point a risk stops being real. Yes, there is a possibility that my child could be hurt at the range. There is also a possibility that a pack of wild marauding dogs could come tearing through the neighborhood and attack them as they play outside. You make judgements every day about risk vs. reward even in regards to your kids. In my opinion the risk they will hurt themselves at the range is so minute that the reward of them truly appreciating firearms and what they can vastly outweighs that risk.

If you read the quotes of that father he had the best intentions as well, and felt no danger in taking his son to a location filled with guns and ammuntion.

You have one example of a complete and total idiot doing something stupid and having everything go wrong that could. Yes, it's tragic. However the biggest problem with the situation was that the father is a complete idiot. His actions do not in any way reflect what I'm advocating any more than someone getting killed in a demolition derby invalidates teaching your child to drive. What that father did was reckless and beyond stupid like putting a kid who's never driven behind the wheel of a 500hp rally car on Pike's Peak when they've never driven before. What happened there is in no way represenative of a responsible parent educating their kids about firearms and letting them have hands on experience.

Part of my Gun safety discussion with my children involved taking them with me to see what a firearm was capable of.
I set up several pumpkins as targets and demonstrated exactly what a gun could do if mishandled.
The Mossberg 500 in particular seemed to make a big impression on them,and I believe my lesson was taken to heart as both of my kids have a health respect for the dangers of firearms.
Of course,I still follow proper precautions in storage,but I am quite certain that my kids got the point and know better than to even think about touching a real gun.

What I can reccomend for those that do not want to physically show the use of a weapon, by physically firing one, to one of their children is to go and find a video of a .22 rifle fired at pine boards and a coke can, IIRC it shows the bullet going through 6 boards and then destroying the coke can. Another means of showing that they are dangerous, is by showing the potential danger to the operator of the weapon, and for that you could try to find an example of a shotgun that was loaded with the wrong ammunition. If you cannot find either of these, contact your local Game Warden, DEC ( Dept. of Environmental Conservation ) Office, and ask for some of the pictures and video, they should gladly give you the pictures for free.

If in the case you cannot find either, or your local DEC office does not provide you with that, then PM me and I will contact the instructor I had for my hunter's safety course, who would gladly give you all of that, and possibly more for free.

sebster wrote:

VoidAngel wrote:

The discussion was of children accidentally injuring themselves or others with guns, vs. due to fire. Your figure includes crime, which is to say, deliberate and illegal use of firearms. Also, you should use statistics from law enforcement sources, not groups that are anti-self-defense rights. The FBI puts the statistic closer to 10,000 per year. By contrast, there were about 13,000 home fire-related injuries in a similar period (but fewer deaths).

You just said deaths, so I went with deaths. I didn't use an anti-gun site, by the way, I just went with the figure I remembered, which was around 40,000. Checking now CDC puts this figure closer to 30,000 so I was off by a bit but still miles higher than your 10,000 figure. I suspect you're citing homicide, which is a bit over 10,000, and ignoring the 15,000 odd suicides each year.

Citing fire related injuries is a bit of a nonsense, though. By your own claim you're looking at deaths from fire, and that figure is around 4,000 per year. Trying to compare fire related injuries to one form of death by firearm is even more non-sensical.

I'd stick to focussing on the accidental part, if you ask me.

The CDC is arguably not an objective source. What the Center for Disease Control has to do with crime is...a fatuous attempt of prominent liberal politicians to co-opt (politically sympathetic) doctors into helping them distort facts and inflate numbers to serve their own ends (banning guns). Your example of suicides is a perfect illustration. As if the firearm had anything to do with it. A person totally at the end of their rope is going to find a way to end their pain, whether by throwing themselves off a bridge, in front of a speeding bus, or any other method you care to imagine. It's neither accidental nor criminal.


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rubiksnoob wrote:

Tyyr wrote:

And also, at least in my opinion, uzis and the like are stupid. You don't really need full auto anything, and you sure as hell don't need it in such a small package.

Thankfully, this is just your opinion. No doubt there are people out there with the opinion that lead miniatures should be banned, or limited - because who needs more than 20 of something so small, anyway?

Your opinion is formed by your experience and your environment. That doesn't mean you have a grasp of all possible needs. And, fundamentally, a law-abiding citizen isn't going to do something immoral with that uzi, or a steak knife, or a flamethrower.


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btemple0 wrote:What I can reccomend for those that do not want to physically show the use of a weapon, by physically firing one, to one of their children is to go and find a video of a .22 rifle fired at pine boards and a coke can, IIRC it shows the bullet going through 6 boards and then destroying the coke can. Another means of showing that they are dangerous, is by showing the potential danger to the operator of the weapon, and for that you could try to find an example of a shotgun that was loaded with the wrong ammunition. If you cannot find either of these, contact your local Game Warden, DEC ( Dept. of Environmental Conservation ) Office, and ask for some of the pictures and video, they should gladly give you the pictures for free.

If in the case you cannot find either, or your local DEC office does not provide you with that, then PM me and I will contact the instructor I had for my hunter's safety course, who would gladly give you all of that, and possibly more for free.

Or, you could *gasp* contact the NRA. Their Eddie Eagle gun safety program for children is actually quite good - regardless of what horrendous evil status you might assign the organization.


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CT - your position is well articulated and really begins and ends at our need to respect your right to do as you please in regards to guns and your child rearing strategies. I hope you may have gleaned some of Tyyr's excellent points and they gave you something to think about. Best to you.