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So you dont select a target anymore then?

This means there is no target unit, despite the rules consistently referring to them.

Essentially: RAW you must still follow the shooting rules, as this is still shooting and you are not told to entirely replace them. As such you ONLY replace what you are ALLOWED to replace - the "roll to hit"

I disagree with your read of RAW, Nos. I believe placing the first blast marker and measuring range to its center is intended to replace the initial range measurement to the unit.

However they appear to have written it very carefully to exclude that - by starting with "roll to hit"

They didn't start with rolling to hit. They explained that the weapon doesn't roll to hit, and then outlined the process it uses instead.

You are of course free to interpret it however you like, but I see no convincing reason to believe that they mean for us to measure twice to shoot a single weapon.

Concur with Insaniak.

We all at least agree that if you have non-blast weapons in the unit then you have to measure range to the unit before placing the first blast marker, correct? So while I do think the popular interpretation when just reading the rules at face value is to play how Insaniak and Mannahnin are suggesting (that's certainly the feeling I've gotten from several opponents when firing my Grotzookas). I do think what Nosferatu is the more 'technically' correct way to follow the steps for shooting, especially when you consider how you play with a unit using some traditional weaponry and blast weaponry.

And certainly this wouldn't be the first shooting situation where players have essentially measured range twice. For example, when a weapon is a blast/melta weapon if it scatters onto a vehicle you then have to double-check range to the vehicle (or to the blast depending on how you interpret the rules) to see if you're within melta range.

With that said, I think the reason that people would tend to interpret that the blast's range check replaces the normal 'check for range' step is because of what it represents when you step back and examine what the purpose of the rule is. With a normal weapon, when you 'check range' you are seeing if the weapon is range and if it isn't the shot automatically misses. With a blast, you check range to where the blast is placed and if you're out of range, the blast misses.

Since both these rules effectively cover the same function (in a slightly different way) it does make sense that there is a strong likelihood that the authors meant for the blast's more specific rule to essentially overwrite the standard procedure. And I'm guessing if we ran a poll on 'how people play it', we'd find that the vast majority agree with this (which is why I won't be trying to measure range before placing any blasts with my Grotzooka Kan units).

insaniak wrote:They didn't start with rolling to hit. They explained that the weapon doesn't roll to hit, and then outlined the process it uses instead.

You are of course free to interpret it however you like, but I see no convincing reason to believe that they mean for us to measure twice to shoot a single weapon.

A process which, at no point, selects a target unit. Meaning it breaks other rules or, is an incomplete process.
They outline a process which says what to do instead of rolling to hit; they do not state for you to ignore the first two shooting steps so you still follow them

Blast weapon shooting is done in parallel to regular shooting. You work out all the hits, then you work out all the wounds, and then allocate saves. That means you can aim all of your blast weapons at the same clump of models. You measure range for the blast weapons as a corollary to measuring range for the purposes of accounting shots for normal weapons. Hence you may not be able to optimize the number of hits per blast if a weapon is out of range, which fits a nice interstitial space between shots as a function of the range between the models of the units.

The difference to the regular order:
1. Declare target: who are you shooting at?
2. Check range: which models can contribute to shooting?
3. Account shots of weapons (x boltgun shots, y melta shot, z frag missile) where z is a complex number
4. Roll to hit. Either 1D6 vs BS for normal weapons or marker, scatter dice & 2D6-BS for blast weapons. Account hits.
5. Roll to wound, subtract fails. Account wounds.
6. Allocate wounds.
7. Roll saves.

Edit: Oopsy.

nosferatu1001 wrote:A process which, at no point, selects a target unit.

Huh? It's right at the start of the second paragraph of the blast rules. The paragraph that we've been discussing this whole time.
"...pick one enemy model visible to the firer and place the blast marker (see diagram) with its hole over the base of the target model, or its hull if it is a vehicle."

That's selecting your target, right there.

Except the above has no rules basis as regards step 4 (your second step 2!)

It tells you to resolve Blasts instead of rolling to hit, you dont ignore the earlier steps.

You may not like it, it may feel "off", but you have no permission to ignore step 1 or 2, and no ability to claim p30 as a complete replacement for page 15 as it misses the key: select target and check los.

The unit selects the target, the shooter selects the specific placement of the marker. These are not exclusive things. All shooters in the unit need to be able to see a model in the target unit if they're going to contribute to the unit's to hit rolls.

So you agree that you still follow steps 1 and 2 then?

Insaniak: except you target UNITS, not MODELS. FIRST you select a unit and THEN you pick a model within that unit to plce the centre over.

Now that you mention it, 2 & 3 would be the same line if 4 is a single line.

But yeah, you select a unit as your target and then work on individual ranges and lines of sight to add up however many to hit dice you'll be rolling. If there's an enemy model within range of your Tactical Marine then it's either 1 or 2 shots at 3+.

Think of it as:

1. Unit addresses unit.
2. Model addresses model. Add up to unit.*
3. Unit rolls to hit. Either normal or blast. Add up hits.
4. Units rolls hits to wound.** Add up wounds.
5. Allocate wounds amongst models of unit.
6. Models, and groups of models, in target unit roll to save.***

*Blast weapons add complex number to hit function
**Majority Toughness, or plurality.
***This is the step at which multi-wound complex units gain an advantage.

You havent included measuring in your flow chart, which was the debate

nosferatu1001 wrote:Insaniak: except you target UNITS, not MODELS.

Ordinarily, yes. However, the Blast rules don't require a unit to be first selected as a target. They simply require you to place the marker over a visible enemy model... and that model becomes the target.

At step 3, rolling to hit.

Which is after the unit selects the target.

You do realise your method allows a unit of multiple "blast" weapons to select entirely different units when firing? Which hopefully shows you step 1 MUST still be in force...leading you to the conclusion step 2 is still in force.

No it doesn't. Since the Blast rules don't specifically over-ride the rule requiring the unit to all fire at the same enemy unit, that rule still applies.

So earlier rules in the shooting phase still apply?

But not step 2, which apparently magically disappears....

Eidt: what I am trying to say is that page 15 MUST apply still, as nothing overrides it in toto

So we agree step 1 applies

We know step 3 is replaced, by a separate process that starts with placing a blast marker

Step 2 is NOT replaced either implicitly or explicitly; explicitly itis NOT replaced as it tells you to replace step 3, roll to hit.

In other words: Blast does not describe a self contained process. It does not replace ALL the shooting Steps lists on page 15, only step 3 which it explicitly DOES replace. So you are still required to follow steps 1 and 2, which does involve measuring twice

If you attempt to remove step 2, to remain consistent you MUST remove step 1

nosferatu1001 wrote:So earlier rules in the shooting phase still apply?

The Blast rules replace the normal shooting sequence. They don't replace any other rules that would otherwise apply.

Wouldn't the blast rules be similar to the template rules?
Both say "instead of rolling to hit" and in the case of the template, you place it so it touches the firing unit and covers the target unit.
If I am targeting a unit, I don't measure to it first and then place the template, do I?
I thought I just place the tmeplate and if I'm too far away, then the shot misses automatically.

Same for blast. Instead of rolling to hit, you place the marker, and then measure to check if the shot landed in range.

That's a very good point. The section detailing the placement process for Template weapons does indeed start with the same 'instead of rolling to hit' statement... which by Nos's interpretation would mean you have to measure range before placing the template. Which is going to be difficult unless you have a tape marked in Template increments.

insaniak wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:So earlier rules in the shooting phase still apply?

The Blast rules replace the normal shooting sequence. They don't replace any other rules that would otherwise apply.

They replace the normal shooting sequence, despite stating they only replace "roll to hit"?

Please show ANY rules backing for that. Any at all.

Edit: the RANGE of a template weapon is, oddly enough, "template"

You accomplish both steps in one, easy movement.

nosferatu1001 wrote:They replace the normal shooting sequence, despite stating they only replace "roll to hit"?

They don't state that they 'only' replace rolling to hit.

I've already shown my justification for my interpretation. If you don't agree with it, that's fine. I'm not going to keep repeating it.

Edit: the RANGE of a template weapon is, oddly enough, "template"

You accomplish both steps in one, easy movement.

That doesn't work, though, in your strict step-based interpretation.

Measuring range and rolling to hit are two discrete steps. You're claiming that placing the Blast Marker or Template specifically only replaces the 'roll to hit' step. Which means that you have to measure range, and then place the template.

You can't use the template to measure range and place it at the same time, under that interpretation. Your argument suddenly has become that for Blasts, placing the marker 'instead of rolling to hit' means that the Blast rules only replace that one step, while for templates placing the template 'instead of rolling to hit' means 'instead of measuring range and rolling to hit'...

You can't have it both ways. The wording is the same, so the result should be the same. Either placing the marker/template replaces just the to hit roll, or it replaces the initial range measurement as well.

The range of the template weapon is "template"

placing the template satisfies step 2
placing the template replaces the variant step 3

The rules only replace what they state the replace: roll to hit. You have no permission to replace anything else. as I said - you have allowed step 1 to remain, but not step 2, despite having absolutely no reason, rules wise, to reach that conclusion.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The range of the template weapon is "template"

placing the template satisfies step 2
placing the template replaces the variant step 3

But you can't place the template until step 3, where it tells you to place the template instead of rolling to hit. If you place the template at step 2, you are placing it before the rules tell you to place it.

In fact, the template rules never reference measuring range at all. They don't tell you to measure range using the template. They tell you that template weapons have the word 'template' instead of a range figure, and they tell you to place the template 'instead of rolling to hit', with all models under the template being hit by it. But nowhere do they tell you to place the template to measure the range, or that placing the template replaces the measurement step.

So you have no rules basis for using the template to measure the range. Which means that, using the same argument that you are using for Blasts, you have to measure the range before placing the template. Which you can't actually do, unless you can find a system of measurement that uses 'template' as a unit of distance.

It tells you to measure the range: the range of a template is "template". In order to measure the range of a template you CAN place the template.

I was really kinda rooting for Nosferatu here... but I think Insaniak might have this one.

You would be violating the shooting order of operations if you were to place the template before the rules tell you to do so. If we go by your logic, then you have to measure beforehand and since you can only measure a distance of 'template' with the template, then you either break the rules by not checking range (step 2) or break the rules by placing the template 'twice' by using it to check range, and then cover as many models as possible.

I'm convinced that it's the same situation for blast weapons and that you are not allowed to check the range to the unit before placing the blast marker in the same way that you cannot check the range to the unit before placing the template.

DoW

Exactly.

It's not logical for the process as described to replace only the to hit roll for blasts and still requiring the measurement step, while taking the same wording as replacing both the to hit roll and the initial measurement for templates.

Either you measure before placing the template or blast marker, regardless of which it is, or you don't. But whichever way you go, they have to be resolved the same way, because they use the same wording for that step of the process.

Measuring with the template at the same time as you place it goes against the listed shooting process. Assuming that no pre-measurement is required solves this problem and is, when you consider Blasts as well, the less complicated solution.

So "target" in the Blast Rules is relative to the "one enemy model visible to the firer", rather than the "target unit" in the normal shooting rules.

So:

Step 1: Check line of sight and pick a target. Unit checks line of sight to unit, declares target, model checks line of sight to model, declares target. 1 & 2 above.

Step 2: Check range. In order to check if a unit is in range, one must check if models are in range, and if so which ones, which is perfectlyu compatible with range to see if you placed a Blast marker out of range. 3 above.

Step 3: Roll to hit. So here's where you either roll 3+ to hit on BS4 with a number of dice per weapon, or roll the scatter dice plus 2D6-BS for Blast Weapons. Also 3 above.

Step 4: Roll to wound Roll 1D6 per hit. 4 above.

Step 5: Take Saving Throws Allocate to either normal or complex units and then roll for (Cover/Armour/Invulnerable) saving throws. 5 & 6 above.

Step 6: Remove Casualties Remove one wound from the allocated group per failed save. 6 above.

Regarding step 2. Clearly it follows that we will find the following situations:

1. Where some models in the shooting unit are in range of the target, but the model with the blast weapon is not in range of a model in the target unit.

2. Where no models in the shooting unit are in range of the target, and hence the model with the blast weapon is not in range of a model in the target unit.

3. Where all of the models in the shooting unit are in range of the target, and hence the model with the blast weapon is in range of a model in the target unit.

4. Where there are some models in the shooting unit in range of the target, and the model with the blast weapon is amongst them.

Example: Space Marine Tactical Squad:

Step 1. Ork Boyz A or Ork Boyz B? Ork Boyz A out of line of sight. Ork Boyz B is target. Frag Missile placed over Nob in the thick of a knot of boyz.

Step 2. Ork Boyz B are in range of Frag Missile, but only 8 Bolter shots.

Step 3. Frag Missile rolls Arrow and 6, for five Orks under or touching the Blast marker, while Bolters roll [1, 2, 3, 3, 5, 6, 6, 6] for a total of 5 hits at S4 AP6 and 6 hits at S4 AP5.

Step 4. Frag Missile hits roll 4+, 3 wounds. Bolter hits roll 4+, 3 wounds.

Step 5. One AP6 shot is distributed to the Nob, and ten to Boyz. Nob takes 'Eavy Armour save at 4+, makes it.

Step 6. Ten Boyz take wounds as they have no cover and AP =< Sv, and get removed from the board.

I'm trying to figure out what the problem is here. The rulebook clearly says under blast that you

1. Pick the target ("model"as written)
2. Place the blast over the model's base
3. Check if the model is in range of the blast
4. Roll to Scatter and tally wounds

On the same page it further goes on to say you repeat this if you have more than one blast weapon, then fire all other weapons.

Could someone explain wherein the confusion lies?