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Anyone who thinks Guardians should cost 5 points is nuts. They have strength 4 AP5 guns, a guardsman's stats with higher initiative, and fleet? 7 points wouldn't be unreasonable at all.

you guys do know that they could just simply limit the size of Guardian Squads right? As it stands a Guardian squad is limited to a max of 20 models, 21 including the warlock. That means if the player chooses to fill out all of his troop choices with guardians, the max he can ever have is 120. Nids and Orks can easily reach that AND still have 2 troop choices left over. If you must complain about "fluff" (indeed I dont think so, as it seems most people complaining about lowering guardian costs is because they dont want their guard to become obsolete, despite the guardians having much more detriments) then lower the Guardian's max squad to 15. That means there's only ever going to be 90 guardians in any given army, nowhere near horde proportions. There are better ways of preserving the more elite and less numerous nature of the Eldar without giving unjustified point increases.

EDIT: Got ninja'd by Brother SRM. 6 or 7 points would be reasonable for guardians. a 12 inch assault gun isnt that much of a deciding factor. Tau fire warrior is 10 points a piece, has better armor, and the best gun in the game. sure they suck in close combat, but so do defender squads (who only fare slightly better due to higher initiative). Fire Warriors are also considered Overpriced too.

Brother SRM wrote:Anyone who thinks Guardians should cost 5 points is nuts. They have strength 4 AP5 guns, a guardsman's stats with higher initiative, and fleet? 7 points wouldn't be unreasonable at all.

They don't have grenades, their guns are limited to 12" (i.e assault range) they lack the resiliency of blobs and the staying power of other equivalent horde units. I4 means relatively little in a game where I4 is *average*, Hormagaunts have I5 and attack rerolls, and many consider them overcosted at 6pts.

20 guardians 1 heavy weapon and warlock

or

20 guardians +2 special weapons and warlock ...

or

20 IG + commissar +2 special weapon + 3 power weapons + 2 heavy weapons + krak grenades + meltabombs ...

Tri wrote:20 guardians 1 heavy weapon and warlock

or

20 guardians +2 special weapons and warlock ...

or

20 IG + commissar +2 special weapon + 3 power weapons + 2 heavy weapons + krak grenades + meltabombs ...

just to get this striaght, those are all the same points cost, right?

necrongod wrote:are you kidding me? theres no way that eldar could be a better horde than orks or nids!

Well, you could bring 160 for a start. A single round of STORM BOLTERS AS SMALL ARMS fire kills 50 orks PER TURN.

That, or they could use fleet to guarantee the charge against them, or they could shoot them and let them charge and strike down the stragglers at I4 before they even get to attack.

Vaktathi wrote:I've shown they won't beat Orks on anything but a charge, they get beaten in any other circumstance.

Which they can guarantee with fleet, or just shoot them and still attack at I4 on the ork's charge.

Vaktathi wrote:Agianst Hormagaunts, again, they only win out on a turn that they get the charge, as the hormies have a higher Init and get rerolls to hit.

How much do hormagaunts cost apiece? That and what is their armor save?

necrongod wrote:
just to get this striaght, those are all the same points cost, right?

roughly actual costs ... (picked the cheapest heavy weapon for the defenders as they all suck)...

20 guardians 1 heavy weapon (Shuriken cannon) and warlock (embolden) 195pts

or

20 guardians +2 special weapons and warlock (destructor)... 207pts

or

20 IG + commissar +2 special weapon + 3 power weapons + 2 heavy weapons (auto cannons)+ krak grenades (one squad) + meltabomb ... 210pts

I usually question the usefulness of Melta Bombs, which would drop that squad's price down to around 205 no?

Ailaros wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:Anyone who thinks Guardians should cost 5 points is nuts.

I'm pretty sure that one of the prerequisites of being an eldar player is grossly underestimating eldar units. I've only just now got the ringing out of my ears from all the whining that happened when they got their last codex...

Well in the case of guardians of course we complained about them in the new codex. Last time we only need to take 5; 5 and a moving heavy weapon would work nicely even if they cost 8pts each and died if you sneezed in their direction.


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MechaEmperor7000 wrote:I usually question the usefulness of Melta Bombs, which would drop that squad's price down to around 205 no?

yep

Ailaros wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:I've shown they won't beat Orks on anything but a charge, they get beaten in any other circumstance.

Which they can guarantee with fleet, or just shoot them and still attack at I4 on the ork's charge.

Fleet won't guarantee them anything, it just means they have a little more control over it. If they just sit there and shoot and then take the charge, they will lose. 10 Shuriken Catapult shots, then 20 CC attacks nets you 6 dead orks, 3.33 in shooting, 2.77 in CC. Assuming 3 Orks remain they kill 0.66 with their pistols, with their 12 CC attacks they inflict 3.55 casualties back on the Eldar, inflicting a total of 4 casualties back, but likely winning combat (since they inflict more in CC) with a good chance to break them, and potentially sweep or force them to fall back

With all that in the Storm Guardians favor, they still more than likely lose combat. Sure they've inflicted greater casualties, but in the end basically simply traded a weeny unit for a weeny unit in a vacuum, not taking into account the greatest strength of the Ork Boy unit (morale, size and hidden powerklaw).

How much do hormagaunts cost apiece? That and what is their armor save?

6pts and 6+, and generally considered overcosted. The 5pt Storm Guardians are sufficiently close in capability to be debateable as to which is better at 5pts each.



I don't see how there's any case to be made that at 5pts, Guardians would become the ultimate Horde unit. They'd be *good*, but nothing under discussion here has shown they'd be the superior horde unit by any means. They only gain the upper hand if they inflict casualties first before the enemy gets into combat, or if they charge. Other units are shootier, other units are killier, and are often just as mobile.

They're already better than bolters, how much better do they need to be?

How are guardian shuricats better than bolters? You can assault after using them, but don't get the shot up to 24". Seems rather platform dependent. I'd rather have Bolters on Guardians and Shuricats on Space Marines.

Also ... Vets at 7pts each ... BS4 & special weapons ... 30pts extra they replace their armour for a 4+ ... wait they're now nearly as good as DA

To be fair, the 30pt Carapace upgrade is also pretty vastly overcosted, and Vets by themselves aren't very good. It's only when coupled with the Chimera that become *really* good as a general Troops unit, or a Valk as a suicide shooting unit.

It's all those "extras" and synergies that make Vets good, and other Horde units way better than Guardians that don't have the same abilities to fall back on.

Vaktathi wrote:To be fair, the 30pt Carapace upgrade is also pretty vastly overcosted, and Vets by themselves aren't very good. It's only when coupled with the Chimera that become *really* good as a general Troops unit, or a Valk as a suicide shooting unit.

true just making a point ... lets not start comparing valks to wave-serpent

Shuricats used to be better STORMBOLTERS.
Issued to rank and file troops.

Stormbolters are much better than bolters.
Shuricats are crap since 3rd ed.

Yes, guardians were more expensive back then, too (but so was everything else)

Ailaros wrote:
Well, you could bring 160 for a start. A single round of STORM BOLTERS AS SMALL ARMS fire kills 50 orks PER TURN.

That, or they could use fleet to guarantee the charge against them, or they could shoot them and let them charge and strike down the stragglers at I4 before they even get to attack.

How are you going to get 160 eldar within 12" of those orks?

How do you bring 160 Guardians period? there are only 6 troop choices and each choice only allows you 20 Guardians max.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:How do you bring 160 Guardians period? there are only 6 troop choices and each choice only allows you 20 Guardians max.

he means 160pts (ie 20x8pts)

Ah, that makes more sense.

Guardian Defenders should be 6 points, with a unit cap of 10 and free grenades.

The reason they have a 5+ save is a holdover from 1st edition, but back then the comparable saves were 6+ for flak and 4+ for Space Marine Power Armour.

If they scaled with time (like Flak eventually did) instead of being frozen, they would be a 4+ which matches their appearance; full body suit of advanced magic material with hardened plate parts.

Guardians should go to 10 points (or so) as befitting a preservationist, dying race and given good armour (4+) and a great weapon, with some options.

Aspect Warriors can be scaled up in points and given excellent armour (3+), which makes sense considering that in their description in WD127 it was literally stated to be the equivalent of power armour (and was the same or better for the most part; only Hawk armour was worse than Imperial Power Armour).

I appreciate the logic of the concept, but overall does the metagame need more 3+ save infantry?

If I had my way, I would make Necrons different (maybe high T bad save, like T6, 6+ or something along those lines) so they aren't T4 3+. (1)

Then, for T3 3+, we only have Sisters and some Eldar builds. (2)

T4 3+ becomes only Space Marines and Chaos Marines, if we count all Space Marine chapters as one faction. Also Eldar if you make a bike army, which you can do currently but you could say bikes are too different in other factors. (2.5 say)

T3 4+ is Tau and other Eldar builds (2)

T3 5+/6+ is Guard, Dark Eldar or Kroot based Tau lists. (2.5 or 3)

Orks would be like Necrons with high T, bad save but make up for lower T by having larger numbers. (1)

Space Marines (Dark Angels) are the only ones who can have 2+ over all, unless Grey Knights change it.

I think with only Necrons changing in theme, the 3+ save lot is mainly thanks to one army masquerading as many. The T3, 3+ save slot is only Sisters other than Eldar.

I think they should be 5pts max size of 15 (as mentioned before) ... go on spam 90 of them ... we all like a laugh, SM, orks and nids would eat each unit without slowing. On the other hand the price drop would make taking them less of a liability.

An alternative to giving them a 4+ save is giving them a 5+ invul save. Sets them apart from other "horde" troops and make them just a tad less squishy against bolters, but still rather punny. However that alone would warrent keeping them at 8 points. Grenades are a must though, as the others all have them as standard.

I... uh, don't know why you want to put grenades on Guardian Defenders. Lets not forget that they have 3s across the statline and a single attack in close combat.

Heck, what people aren't realizing is that Guardian Defenders don't even fire their shuri catapults unless things look bleak and there is a unit closing into their position.

What this means is we have a unit which is only slightly better than a tau fire warrior in close combat, with a charge range gun bs3 gun, and for some reason people are worried about it being s4 ap5- jesus people these are not rapid firing chaos space marines!! Even if guardians were 5 points a pop, the only lists this would change are Avatar builds. Everybody else who uses guardians will continue putting them in cover with as many heavy weapons as allowed (1, hopefully more in a new codex) and plink away with a scatter laser or eml and hope nobody notices them.

There is a reason Storm Guardians are the ones who hop out of a wave serpent instead of Defenders, and that reason is 2 special weapons: 2 Flame Templates that ignore bs3 , and Destructor for even more incinerating goodness. This puts FAR more hurt on enemy squads at close range than Defender "storm bolters" and a single inaccurate heavy weapon. Add on the extra attack in Close Combat, and you have a unit capable of impressive close range anti infantry fire, and an enhanced ability to charge onto an objective to try to steal it away from the enemy at the end of a game.

I think if any Guardian should get Plasma Grenades, it should be Storm Guardians. In part to justify the higher cost- which they deserve, and in part to aide them in their late game assaults on objectives.