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I always wondered this. In one of the Eldar codices, it describes their armor as automatically reinforcing itself at any point of impact. So why is it exactly as effective as a flak jacket on a guardsman, or a wife-beater t-shirt on a Catachan? I always thought 4+ would be more in line with that bit of fluff.

Because they're guardians, the absolute lowest warriors in the codex

Also, their armour is quite thin, so it makes sense. Even flack is thicker.

It works like a bullet proof jacket. It stop the bullet from penetrating but the impact shock wave can still kill.

Hardened vets can take the damage better but people that are rounded up aren't and they go down to less damage.

They maynot be "killed" but they won't be fighting anymore in the battle. I.E loss of limb.

What I don't get is why Guardians are so expensive at 8 points each

Kabalite Warriors cost only 1 point more but get WS4 BS4 I 5 and Posion weapons

obsidianaura wrote:What I don't get is why Guardians are so expensive at 8 points each

Kabalite Warriors cost only 1 point more but get WS4 BS4 I 5 and Posion weapons

eldar are debatably the first codex written for the 5th edition and a lot of the options cost too much ..hawks should be 15pts guardians should be able to take more then one heavy weapon ... but what you going to do.

Guardians are a 5+ save because they wanted Aspect Warriors to be obviously better warriors. They wanted more distinction than just +1 WS,BS,I,Ld. They also it clear that Aspect Warriors get the better gear, both weapons and armor. So, they had to make Guardians have a worse armor save than Aspect Warriors.

Making a Guardian 4+ would mean that Aspect Warriors would have a 3+. That's too much like SM, so they toned it down to a 5+ on Guardians and a 4+ on Aspect Warriors.

obsidianaura wrote:What I don't get is why Guardians are so expensive at 8 points each

Kabalite Warriors cost only 1 point more but get WS4 BS4 I 5 and Posion weapons

Yeah, really. It's the cheapest thing in the codex, yet vastly inferior in almost every way possible. Their guns are idiotic

Fluff-wise, because Guardians are normal citizens IIRC.

Chance are they'll be 5pts each (same as IG) when we get the next codex.

Also, you've got to remember that guardian armor is really advanced. It offers the same protection as guard flak armor, but instead of being heavy and bulky, it's form-fitting and virtually weightless.

You don't see regular guardsmen getting fleet, now do you?

Brother Gyoken wrote:I always wondered this. In one of the Eldar codices, it describes their armor as automatically reinforcing itself at any point of impact. So why is it exactly as effective as a flak jacket on a guardsman, or a wife-beater t-shirt on a Catachan? I always thought 4+ would be more in line with that bit of fluff.

It's a holdover from 2nd edition.

In 2E Guardsmen had 6+sv's, 5+ against Blasts. Guardians always had a 5+. The old Cadians were far less armored. Keep in mind that not all the advantages of Guardians armor is expressed in game. In other systems like Dark Heresy, Guardian armor is much lighter, more flexible, etc.

As is? Guardians problem isn't their armor save, it's the fact that they are hideously expensive and don't offer anything that Dire Avengers or Striking Scorpions don't do *way* better.

Tri wrote:Chance are they'll be 5pts each (same as IG) when we get the next codex.

oh man... I would love me some 5 point storm guardians
if a squad of 10 storm guardians with 2 flamers and a Destructor lock cost under 100 points... oh man!

Which actually brings up a good point... while Guardian Defenders are absolutely awful, Storm Guardians are currently a VERY respectable troop choice. 2 flamers and Destructor significantly outpace bladestorm against hordes in cover, and is even comparable to a bladestorm against targets in the open. Not only that, but despite the lower stat line, Storm Guardians hold up better than Dire Avengers in close combat- due to the superior number of attacks from the pistol + ccw- which means if you need to shoot and charge units on an objective... storm guardians are better for it. Further, despite the worse armor save, its actually more difficult to neutralize a storm guardian squad's shooting, nearly all of their damage is focused on the 2 special weapons and the warlock, this means you can lose plenty of pistol + ccw boys and still pack nearly all of your ranged punch... you lose 4 or 5 of your 10 Dire Avengers... and that bladestorm is significantly weaker.

While Dire Avengers may still be the most competitive troop choice, Storm Guardians are currently very viable, and in some ways actually surpass Dire Avengers. I run a squad of Storm Gus in almost every game I play, and they seldom disappoint and often times make my Dire Avengers just look like a bunch of scrubs. I've had games where they've deployed from a wave serpent and burned down an entire guard squad in cover and they didn't get shot because my opponent was too busy mauling my Dire Avengers because they are more "intimidating", then next turn the Guardians moved, fleeted, then multi charged another guardsman squad and a sentinel squadron. the guardsman squad got ripped up, broke and ran, the witchblade exploded one of the sentinels and the other was locked in combat and couldn't shoot. Brutal.

I do think the 5+ armor is a bit silly though... one would think that a race obsessed with not letting eldar souls die would give their troops better armor than an imperial gunt... but I digress.

Ah well storm guardians will probably get 1-3pts on top of that to exchange their weapons

Tri wrote:Chance are they'll be 5pts each (same as IG) when we get the next codex.

Well there is a problem in terms of fluff as the Eldar are dieing the standard Gaurdian Militia will only be called forth when in dire need.

If they make gaurdians 5 points a pop then Eldar players will field them in mass and essentially break the fluff ties to gaurdians.

Perhaps the Eldar will stop dieing and gain a foot hold again?

Th3ee Legged Dog wrote:

Well there is a problem in terms of fluff as the Eldar are dieing the standard Gaurdian Militia will only be called forth when in dire need.

If they make gaurdians 5 points a pop then Eldar players will field them in mass and essentially break the fluff ties to gaurdians.

Just wait till you see the 9 pt Dire Avengers, and the 14 point Guardian Jetbkes + Pathfinders

yeah, guardians aren't going to be made 5 pts.

They cost the same as guardsmen, but get access to warlocks, heavy weapons which can move and shoot, fleet, access to army-wide fearless, flying quasi-invincible transports, and Assault 2 Ap5 weapons? I'd quit 40k for good if they made them cost as little as guardsmen. What they did to blood angels was ludicrous enough.

Guardians are fine. Tweak them a little bit to clear up some of the goofiness is all they need. Eldar players who want them to be way better or way cheaper are just whining.

They wouldn't be that bad at 5pts base. All that other stuff is upgrades, and the assault 2 guns are only 12" range, and they can't amalgamate squads or take a "Special" equivalent weapon. They still wouldn't be a 'must take' unit by any means.

The reason guardians aren't less than eight points is that Eldar are not a horde army like guard. Not to mention they are a dying race after all. WS 4 might be nice though. The armour save is grand too.

Just because they aren't a horde army doesn't mean a unit shouldn't be priced appropriately. As is, 5pts wouldn't be too inappropriate. If they're to remain 8pts, they're going to need a lot of capability upgrades.

Vaktathi wrote:They still wouldn't be a 'must take' unit by any means.

At 5 pts. apiece, storm guardians would be able to beat power blobs on a by-points basis. In fact, they would very likely be able to beat ORKS on a by-points basis, what with always striking first, even with the orks furiously charging.

If you made them 5 pts. apiece, then eldar would be able to field the deadliest close-combat horde army in 40k, above guard, tyranid, and orks. That would be it for me...

Ailaros wrote:yeah, guardians aren't going to be made 5 pts.

They cost the same as guardsmen, but get access to warlocks, heavy weapons which can move and shoot, fleet, access to army-wide fearless, flying quasi-invincible transports, and Assault 2 Ap5 weapons? I'd quit 40k for good if they made them cost as little as guardsmen. What they did to blood angels was ludicrous enough.

Guardians are fine. Tweak them a little bit to clear up some of the goofiness is all they need. Eldar players who want them to be way better or way cheaper are just whining.

Ailaros wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:They still wouldn't be a 'must take' unit by any means.

At 5 pts. apiece, storm guardians would be able to beat power blobs on a by-points basis. In fact, they would very likely be able to beat ORKS on a by-points basis, what with always striking first, even with the orks furiously charging.

If you made them 5 pts. apiece, then eldar would be able to field the deadliest close-combat horde army in 40k, above guard, tyranid, and orks. That would be it for me...

... well lets look at this ...
Fearless on squishy troops means lots of dead to no retreat
IG can take a heavy weapon, special weapon, power weapon and commissar (that gives the Ld9 and rerolled moral checks) ... they can also join together to form super units.

Its all very well say look Str4 AP5 but it ignores the simple fact that your now in charge range. Fleet? so what? it meant something when we were the only race that could run but being able to assault after running means very little when you don't want to assault.



Sorry really not seeing it; where is the justification for them being more then 5pts? If its the serpents well they're 100pts each and you can already spam them if you use DA. Really other then storm guardians (thanks only to 3-flamers) you should never field them.

If they're going to be 8pts ... They should at least be able to take an extra heavy weapon ... may be give some haywire grenades.

as far as i can tell:
Imperial Guard> Eldar

Storm Guardians, I'll hand you, may be worth 8 points. 2 base attacks, 2 special wepaons, ability to take a warlock to compliment the squad with embolden + singing spear or destructor, makes them a very solid choice. I'd love it if Storm Gus were costed at 6 or 7, but I concede that 8 points is very fair.

Defenders on the other hand... a single, usually overpriced, heavy weapon off of a low ballistic skill with short ranged assualt guns and a weak armor save and weaker close combat.

Either Guardian Defenders need a significant buff, or they need to cost less. You pay more points and get a weaker unit than the basic guarsman. Especially when you take in the overpriced heavy weapons... and inability to take special weapons.

Ailaros wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:They still wouldn't be a 'must take' unit by any means.

At 5 pts. apiece, storm guardians would be able to beat power blobs on a by-points basis.

In combat, sure, they're equipped for it, that's what they do, but the Power blobs will shoot the ever loving piss out of them, and still outlast them and grind them to destruction. Infantry Platoon blobs are not a dedicated close combat unit. The Storm Guardians are.

In fact, they would very likely be able to beat ORKS on a by-points basis, what with always striking first, even with the orks furiously charging.

Sweet Christ no they won't. Assuming no charges, 10 Storm Guardians with 20 attacks costing 50pts will kill 2.7 Orks. Assuming there were 9 slugga boy orks costing 54pts, this means on average we have 6 to strike back with 18 attacks, hitting on 3's, wounding on 4's, inflicting 4 casualties after saves. The Storm Guardians only gain the upper hand on the turn that they charge. If the Orks charge, or any subsequent combats, the Orks by far have the advantage.

If you made them 5 pts. apiece, then eldar would be able to field the deadliest close-combat horde army in 40k, above guard, tyranid, and orks. That would be it for me...

Methinks not.

Tri wrote: Fearless on squishy troops means lots of dead to no retreat
IG can take a heavy weapon, special weapon, power weapon and commissar (that gives the Ld9 and rerolled moral checks) ... they can also join together to form super units.

Its all very well say look Str4 AP5 but it ignores the simple fact that your now in charge range. Fleet? so what? it meant something when we were the only race that could run but being able to assault after running means very little when you don't want to assault.

Guardians can take a heavy weapon that can move and shoot and a warlock that comes with a heavy flamer and a S9 weapon. The only disadvantage is that they can't blob together thus saving KP (but they can take squads larger than 10, right?). Meanwhile fearless may cause more wounds in close combat, but it's more certain than a rerollable Ld9 (which still fails, trust me), and it also works against pinning.

The only problem with guardians is the obnoxious MUST take a heavy weapon thing. Otherwise, we're talking about a unit that, because of fleet, can guarantee the charge against slower units (like guardsmen). Meanwhile, the fact that they can shoot AND charge and that their initiative is higher means bad things for guardsmen. Plus, they can handle vehicles much more easily.

No, guardians are already better than guardsmen. Which is why they cost more.

Underestimating them doesn't change this.

Vaktathi wrote:

If you made them 5 pts. apiece, then eldar would be able to field the deadliest close-combat horde army in 40k, above guard, tyranid, and orks. That would be it for me...

Methinks not.

You can "methinks" the statistics away all you want, but that doesn't make the truth go away.

Ailaros wrote:

Tri wrote: Fearless on squishy troops means lots of dead to no retreat
IG can take a heavy weapon, special weapon, power weapon and commissar (that gives the Ld9 and rerolled moral checks) ... they can also join together to form super units.

Its all very well say look Str4 AP5 but it ignores the simple fact that your now in charge range. Fleet? so what? it meant something when we were the only race that could run but being able to assault after running means very little when you don't want to assault.

Guardians can take a heavy weapon that can move and shoot and a warlock that comes with a heavy flamer and a S9 weapon. The only disadvantage is that they can't blob together thus saving KP (but they can take squads larger than 10, right?). Meanwhile fearless may cause more wounds in close combat, but it's more certain than a rerollable Ld9 (which still fails, trust me), and it also works against pinning.

The only problem with guardians is the obnoxious MUST take a heavy weapon thing. Otherwise, we're talking about a unit that, because of fleet, can guarantee the charge against slower units (like guardsmen). Meanwhile, the fact that they can shoot AND charge and that their initiative is higher means bad things for guardsmen. Plus, they can handle vehicles much more easily.

No, guardians are already better than guardsmen. Which is why they cost more.

Underestimating them doesn't change this.

Vaktathi wrote:If you made them 5 pts. apiece, then eldar would be able to field the deadliest close-combat horde army in 40k, above guard, tyranid, and orks. That would be it for me...

Methinks not.

You can "methinks" the statistics away all you want, but that doesn't make the truth go away.

Guardians at 5 pts would possibly be a little too low. They are better than Guardsmen, but not by much. A S4 Ap5 gun is better than S3 AP-, even if it is shorter max range.

6pts would probably be reasonable. Although, I'd prefer if they stayed at 8 and were improved enough to be worthwhile at that level.

Um, do you have anything to counter other than "the truth"?

Guardsmen won't beat Storm Guardians man for man in combat, but then they aren't equipped with pistol/CCW.They *will* outshoot them however man for man. Blob units will still kill off Storm Guardians through sheer endurance and will have far more versatility and still have humongous shooting capability. Guardsmen also get Grenades, Guardians can't. If the SG's have to assault into cover, they lose their Init advantage and then its GG.

I've shown they won't beat Orks on anything but a charge, they get beaten in any other circumstance.

Agianst Hormagaunts, again, they only win out on a turn that they get the charge, as the hormies have a higher Init and get rerolls to hit.

Still not seeing where Storm Guardians would be the most epicly amazing CC horde unit. Especially lacking the tools that Orks mobs, Guard Blobs and Hormagaunts get to make it to their target and stay in there. The Storm Guardians either restrict themselves to being 10 strong (and thus easily destroyed) to ride in a transport, or can go up to twenty, but can't get the same damage mitigation or Ld abilities to stay that the other horde armies can. Orks are Fearless en masse and can get KFF's, Guard Blobs are stubborn Ld9 with rerolls and tons of ablative wounds and can afford to *be* charged. Hormagaunts can advance under Synapse to avoid having to take break tests. Storm Guardians are Ld8 no matter what they do really, and can only either get Embolden or Conceal, but not both.

As someone with two Imperial Guard armies, I would not be worried in the least by 5pt Guardians. Especially if their other options remain mostly the same as they are now.

If they take the shuriken catapults back to what they were like when they were GOOD, then guardians would be better - and DA would just be better arnoured guardians (as they were).