Heavy Bolters and rule of cool

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**ENKHANNA**

Perhaps you are looking for something like a sonic blaster, with 2 different profiles ass 2 and heavy 3, reducing range distance for assault mode to 24", representing firing-on-the-move unreliability?

**RedGuardian73**

I think that Heavy bolters should be pinning, I know I'd be ducking and trying to find cover if a fully automatic mini-missile launcher was shooting at me.

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And Heavy bolter equivalents.

**Griever**

Bookwrack wrote:
Brother Heinrich wrote:so you're saying you don't want want heavy 5 HBs? I can't for the life of me imagine why you wouldn't

Because it's a silly change with no point behind it? If you want to change a rule so heavily, you actually need some reasoning to do so, and 'I don't understand what the shooting mechanics represent, so let's ramp up the # of dice a heavy bolter rolls' doesn't really cut it. I play the game for the fun of matching my army against my opponent's. Buffing my weaponry so that he gets to stand around and be a shooting gallery target isn't fun.

I think the point is to make it so that Heavy Bolters are actually worth taking. Put up a list on the forum with Long Fangs quads of 5 heavy bolters and see how that works for you. Or IG heavy weapon's teams with heavy bolters. Or take heavy bolters on your chimeras.

**Guitardian**

Heavy bolters are absolutely worth taking. Very low cost weapons good at gunning down any troops except MEQ. What's not to like? It's only a small points upgrade. There are better heavy weapons, sure, but they cost more points too.

**Exergy**

Brother Heinrich wrote:so the other night I was sitting there b#tching about the various discrepencies with 40k, as I am often known to do, and we got on the topic of heavy bolters and how they are one of the most iconic weapons employed by Space Marines, yet they are quite middle of the road, especially as far as devastator squads are concerned. My proposal was simple, that the heavy bolter be moved from a heavy 3 to a heavy 5 weapon. It's a squad heavy machine gun, it's going to have a drastically higher rate of fire than a standard infantry rifle, be it bolter or lasgun. and yes this would no doubt prompt a change in the assault cannon profile as well, to whitch i propose nothing more than making it a heavy 8 weapon.

no some of this may seem over powered, especially the assault cannon, but god's sake, if a mulit-barreled machine gun can't fire 8 round in the time it takes to fire two from an assault rifle there's something wrong. the whole reason a machine gun is designed with multiple barrels is because its rate of fire is so high that it would warp a single barrel weapon with the heat discharge.

Thoughts?

umm heavy bolters are great as they are. Sure they suck against SM and MeQ but they slaughter GeQ. Orcs and Eldar really fear those things. almost doubling their ROF would be insane.
While they might be able to punch out a lot of rounds, each round is the size of a soda can. How much ammo can a SM carry? If he is firing it at 600rounds per minute he would go through 1000kg of ammo a minute. SM are strong, but not that strong. Also there is no T&A mechinism. Modern machine guns cannot sustain their ROF for very long before the vibration makes them completely inacurate. They are best used in 1-2 second bursts where they sqeeze off 10 rounds or so. Then a new target needs to be found aimed and shot. Running on full auto is just a waste of ammo, Spray and pray.

If anything heavy bolters should be more effective against MeQ, not more effective against GeQ.

**atmcmurp**

The reason that Heavy Bolters are and should only be Heavy 3 is some what based on how real life machine gun crews fire heavy machine guns. The fire in short burst because even when mounted on a tripod or vehicle, the machine gun has a way of walking. By firing in short burst the gun crew can maintain accuracy. Also, over heating the barrel for many machine guns can easily be prevented by firing in short burst.

**Guitardian**

Any attempt to liken any kind of 40k weapon to any real knowledge of modern weapons is doomed to fail because 6'=1" and guns shoot a hell of a lot further than 144 feet, and don't start shooting faster because the target is inside 72 feet either. Nor is a 'turn' any exact amount of time, and if nobody in the "I know my guns and...." camp has noticed, frag grenades never kill anyone either. It's abstract. And abstractly, 3 dice rolled for effect of a heavy bolter is just fine.

**Anvildude**

Thing is, since the Bolters are rocket propelled, they wouldn't actually have accuracy problems from recoil. They would, however, have accuracy problems if one bolt followed too close to the next, as the rocket plume would mess up the next bolt's flight path, if not prematurely detonate it.

Though I do think it would be interesting if most weapons were 'fluffed up' to how they're portrayed in, well, fluff. It'd only work if it was passed along the entire game, through Xenos and IoM, but it'd be interesting. You'd either end up with Movie Marines, Movie Men, Movie Xenos, Movie Demons, etc, or else games would go a whole lot faster, with tanks and squads rarely surviving one or two rounds of shooting. It'd also definitely shift the focus of the game back to long and medium range combat, instead of this Artillery/Assault thing that seems to be the norm for the Meta.

**Melissia**

Anvildude wrote:Thing is, since the Bolters are rocket propelled, they wouldn't actually have accuracy problems from recoil.

Boltguns are not purely rocket propelled. They have a large kicker charge which allows htem to be lethal even at point blank range.

**Guitardian**

Assault has always been the key in 40k. mid range shooting is discouraged because it might need more tactics like facing, overwatch, and other stuff that is over some people's heads. Assault tactics are the key to this game. It's what happens when you restrict an area to move in, everyone is bound to sooner or late be up close and personal. This was the case way back when I played in '92. If you don't like it, make a lot more room for long range units to fall back to while shooting the whole time and see how all the assaulters fare then.

40k is the only strategy game I have ever seen where it is preferable to run up half the board and kick someone than to outflank and shoot them out from beside their cover. always has been. They say it makes it more 'heroic' or something.

**Melissia**

It sure as hell isn't preferable for my Sisters and Guard army to get into assault...

It's preferable for Marines to do so, but Marines aren't the entire game despite what GW might lead one to believe.

**gpfunk**

Heres my idea.

Heavy Bolter - Heavy 3 Str 5 AP 4

Special - "Orks iz da best" When fighting orks, the heavy bolter weapon profile goes to heavy 0, str 0, ap - cause "orkz iz da best"

Assault cannon - Heavy (Way too many shots) Str 7 AP 4

Special - "Dat can't hurt me" When fighting orks, the assault cannon is immediately effected with a "weapon destroyed" result, cuz orks firmly believes that "dat can't hurt me"

About as balanced as giving a heavy bolter or assault cannon more shots, higher strength, and lower ap. Specially for Non-MEQs

**Guitardian**

I'm not talking army-specific Melissia. It is just that ever since I can remember (like rogue trader remember) If you get the charge on a guy this is where the game boils down. If you can hose a chargey army with a shooty army then great for you, but (especially in 4th when you could roll up the ranks never being shot at through consolidates and teleporting between LOS blocking terrain before jumping out into assault (aka speedfreaks, land raiders, DE) then the game is decided there.

My 4th ed. experiences were mostly IG versus my opponents speedfreaks and I would count myself lucky to even be able to use half of my heavy weapons by turn 2. Now with deepstriking (everything), harder to kill transports, but no consolodate into combat, it becomes different, but still assault heavy in the metagame. Again, I would prefer a sword to a gun in 40k.

**Slick**

Simple thing that coild buff up the heavy bolter would be if each one past the first firing adds one dice to the shooting (at the.majority of the units bs if a mixed unit) or If marines using hbs got relentless, bit losr it for other heavy options

**Guitardian**

yes and the same thing could apply to every weapon that isn't literally single shot. Wanna roll that for all rapid firing lasguns because one short burst can guide the rest?

**Melissia**

Guitardian wrote:I'm not talking army-specific Melissia. It is just that ever since I can remember (like rogue trader remember) If you get the charge on a guy this is where the game boils down.

Assault is important, but shooting is just as much so. And the most important part of the game is the movement phase. Clever manipulation of infantry squads saves my Guard army from assault more often than not. Clever maneuvering of my Battle Sister squads will ensure my Sisters army's victory.

**gpfunk**

Melissia wrote:
Guitardian wrote:I'm not talking army-specific Melissia. It is just that ever since I can remember (like rogue trader remember) If you get the charge on a guy this is where the game boils down.
Assault is important, but shooting is just as much so. And the most important part of the game is the movement phase. Clever manipulation of infantry squads saves my Guard army from assault more often than not. Clever maneuvering of my Battle Sister squads will ensure my Sisters army's victory.

*Snaps in agreement* As a new player, movement is by far the hardest and most unforgiving stage of the game. Movement is the difference between assaulting and getting assaulted, shooting and being shot, and winning or losing.

You don't happen to have any bat reps of sisters do you? I've never seen them played.

**Guitardian**

If you are cleverly maneuvering your guard to avoid assault, you aren't shooting your big guns, so the assault (or threat of it) is still dictating the game. Most weapons in this game have their most effective range at 12". There's plenty of stuff out there that can move and charge more than that. That should be a pretty good indication of what the designers have in mind. Also, filling a battlefield with terrain is nothing but a boone for assault oriented armies. Large fire lanes are discouraged. Large Open spaces are discouraged. Who do you think that favors? The move-or-fire weapons, or the move and charge weapons?

**Melissia**

Guitardian wrote:If you are cleverly maneuvering your guard to avoid assault, you aren't shooting your big guns

You don't know Guard very well.

**Guitardian**

Not in 5th no. But dating back to the dawn of 40k days I believe move-or-fire is a pretty well established standard for heavy weapons and heavy weapons are a standard for guard. Be as smug as you like, and I am not dissing IG (hell I played them when they sucked, none of this 5th ed. love here bud) I'm just saying the game is intentionally boiled down to assault in the end. If you can gun down an assault army before it gets to you, then more power to you, but if you cant, more power to them, and the game is designed (intentionally or not - but my belief is that it is intentional, and based on little soundbytes from the rules guys I have read over the years)... it is a game where it's a lot easier to get there one way or another than to shoot everything trying to get there or try to avoid it.

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Melissia wrote:
Guitardian wrote:If you are cleverly maneuvering your guard to avoid assault, you aren't shooting your big guns
You don't know Guard very well.

sorry but I don't live in one-liner action movies either.

**Melissia**

Guitardian wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Guitardian wrote:If you are cleverly maneuvering your guard to avoid assault, you aren't shooting your big guns
You don't know Guard very well.
sorry but I don't live in one-liner action movies either.

I wasn't quoting an action movie, I was being quite serious. I don't have to move my heavy weapons squad in order to maneuver my basic infantry squad into close combat where it will be shredded in one turn and either flee or be cut down, leaving the enemy high and dry to be focus fired on. And it's okay that I lost one unit, because I still have more where that came from.

And I will have more individual units than the enemy.