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Kurb wrote:Considering this was a beauty pagent more than a tourney what did your Wolves do after the talent section?

Swimsuit, I think. Or was it evening gown?

Nice battle reports, Reecius! The scoring at that event seemed... interesting.

Mannahnin wrote:I am fairly certain that in most countries, telling someone that their list is poor will not be well received as the beginning of a dialogue.

Really? I don't think so. This is seriously a bias view of yours. I m actually fairly certain the comments which I have made on top would be easily accepted by most open minded people. For one, it wasn't even rude or personal. It was a statement of opinion on a particular subject. Every single sentence was directed on the merits (or demerits) of the list.

Mannahnin wrote:This is part of why Stelek fails so badly in any venue where he does not control the feedback he gets. He almost always starts off rude, brusque, high-handed and dismissive (and usually stays that way too).

If you phrased your concerns about Reecius' list as questions rather than proclamations or judgments, you might find them received more warmly. Reecius might have been willing to explain to you more about how his list works and how he handles BWs as Jy2 has done.

First, Stelek would swear and call names. I don't. It makes a world of difference.
Second, it's ironic that on one hand you encourage a warmer tone, on the other hand, Reecius response to my comments (which were less warm in your opinion but definitely unaggressive) was made in a sacarstic tone. Doesn't that go against whatever you have just advocated? If he felt offended, the least he could do was to throw back the question at me and ask why I think his list was weak. He didn't, but instead chose to act like a jerk.

striderx wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:I am fairly certain that in most countries, telling someone that their list is poor will not be well received as the beginning of a dialogue.

Really? I don't think so. This is seriously a bias view of yours. I m actually fairly certain the comments which I have made on top would be easily accepted by most open minded people. For one, it wasn't even rude or personal. It was a statement of opinion on a particular subject. Every single sentence was directed on the merits (or demerits) of the list.

striderx wrote:How do you think would have change your first game if the mission was something else? List wise, your list was merely a pure spam of MLs. You have absolutely no way to stop AV14, no countercharging units (TWC), and no traffic blocking capability.
Personally, I don't like the list you are taking.

Remember, there is no tone on the Internet. To me, your initial post seems dismissive, which does not encourage dialogue - at best, it encourages the sort of defensive posts that you got. Reecius has had significant success with the list; he posts battle reports for most of his large games.

Thanks for the reps, Reece!


One of these days you'll stop dodging me and we'll get a game in!!! I'll have to shoot up for the Open and win that 2k army!

It was a blast seeing you guys at the event - let us SD guys know the next time you're in the neighborhood. You guys planning on making the trek for the Slaughter?

jy2 wrote:You may well be in charge range...but there is a huge difference in how you charge. There difference here is that if I immobilise/wreck your BW this turn, then next turn you are charging on foot and against my vehicles rather than ramming them with your deff-rollas and then disembarking and multi-charging my disembarked passengers and other nearby vehicles. It makes a world of difference as the consequences of those 2 charges are 1) the BW deff'rolla charge is much more devastating and 2) I can't shoot you if you manage to lock yourself in combat

i concur with your view that the orks may be knocking on transports instead of bodies. But it does't matter because the SW list does not have the slightest CC ability. MSUs of GHs aren't going to do much to the horde of orks waiting at your doorstep. Couple that with the fact that this first wave of assault would have crippled like 1/3 or 1/2 of your shooting capability, I doubt you will be able to shoot down 4 wagons in your next shooting phase even on the side armour.
A shooty army needs to either 1) stay far and shooting long enough to cripple the opponent substantially before he reaches your lines, or 2) have a counter assault element to handle anything that finally reaches your line. That list have none of those.
That being said, I have no doubt that list would do well against a lot of list out in the current metagame, but it is list like the wagon spam that gives a hard counter to it.

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Janthkin wrote:Remember, there is no tone on the Internet. To me, your initial post seems dismissive, which does not encourage dialogue - at best, it encourages the sort of defensive posts that you got. Reecius has had significant success with the list; he posts battle reports for most of his large games.

Then ironically, how is it that you find my post to be dismissive ? Did you read the tone? If not, then was it the choice of words? If it is, then the words I used were all directed at the list/subject, isnt it? I would agree with you that I could have put in the effort to include more question marks in my sentences to encourage a dialogue, but I m fairly certain they don't deserve the kind of response from Reecius.

striderx wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:I am fairly certain that in most countries, telling someone that their list is poor will not be well received as the beginning of a dialogue.

Really? I don't think so. This is seriously a bias view of yours. I m actually fairly certain the comments which I have made on top would be easily accepted by most open minded people. For one, it wasn't even rude or personal. It was a statement of opinion on a particular subject. Every single sentence was directed on the merits (or demerits) of the list.

You wanted the word "biased", not "bias". Would you like me to ask a few people from other countries to weigh in? I will wager that you are mistaken.

I am explaining to you why you got the response you got. You told him his list was bad instead of asking how it deals with x, y, or z. When he knows very well that his list is not bad, that it wins in competitive venues against a wide variety of lists, and against good opposition, how do you expect him to react to your comment? He would be investing time and effort to do you the favor of disabusing you of your misapprehensions; but your post indicates that you are not open or receptive or inquisitive, so what's his incentive?

striderx wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:This is part of why Stelek fails so badly in any venue where he does not control the feedback he gets. He almost always starts off rude, brusque, high-handed and dismissive (and usually stays that way too).

If you phrased your concerns about Reecius' list as questions rather than proclamations or judgments, you might find them received more warmly. Reecius might have been willing to explain to you more about how his list works and how he handles BWs as Jy2 has done.

First, Stelek would swear and call names. I don't. It makes a world of difference.
Second, it's ironic that on one hand you encourage a warmer tone, on the other hand, Reecius response to my comments (which were less warm in your opinion but definitely unaggressive) was made in a sacarstic tone. Doesn't that go against whatever you have just advocated? If he felt offended, the least he could do was to throw back the question at me and ask why I think his list was weak. He didn't, but instead chose to act like a jerk.

The difference between what you did and what Stelek does was of degree, not of kind. Although I agree that not swearing or flaming definitely puts you several steps up. Reecius did not act like a jerk at all. He was polite and mildly ironic. He has identified you as someone who makes negative comments to him, and that has discouraged him from investing effort in responding to you. Somnicide did get a little sarcastic. Which is not friendly, but again, was a response to the way you chose to communicate.


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striderx wrote:

jy2 wrote:You may well be in charge range...but there is a huge difference in how you charge. There difference here is that if I immobilise/wreck your BW this turn, then next turn you are charging on foot and against my vehicles rather than ramming them with your deff-rollas and then disembarking and multi-charging my disembarked passengers and other nearby vehicles. It makes a world of difference as the consequences of those 2 charges are 1) the BW deff'rolla charge is much more devastating and 2) I can't shoot you if you manage to lock yourself in combat

i concur with your view that the orks may be knocking on transports instead of bodies. But it does't matter because the SW list does not have the slightest CC ability. MSUs of GHs aren't going to do much to the horde of orks waiting at your doorstep. Couple that with the fact that this first wave of assault would have crippled like 1/3 or 1/2 of your shooting capability, I doubt you will be able to shoot down 4 wagons in your next shooting phase even on the side armour.
A shooty army needs to either 1) stay far and shooting long enough to cripple the opponent substantially before he reaches your lines, or 2) have a counter assault element to handle anything that finally reaches your line. That list have none of those.
That being said, I have no doubt that list would do well against a lot of list out in the current metagame, but it is list like the wagon spam that gives a hard counter to it.

I disagree entirely with your assessment.

1) As already pointed out to you, by deploying in separate areas of the battlefield, the MSU list can force the BWs to expose side armor. This, along with the mobile shooting of Typhoons and Razorbacks, allows at least some of the BWs to be stopped. In addition, if the units primarily tasked with this responsibility fail, Reecius can devote some missile launchers to the job as backup. Their odds are long, but if they get a Glance through they have a 50/50 shot (thanks to Open-Topped) of stopping a BW either permanently or for a turn (2, 4, 5 on the chart).

2) If a unit of 20 boys charges and busts open a SW transport, Reecius' list has multiple ways to kill them. First, since they are forced to bunch up in charging a vehicle and cannot Consolidate after killing it, Reecius' ML squads or Typhoons can Frag the crud out of the Boys. Second, two of Reecius' squads in question have flamers. A flamer can kill a substantial number of Orks when they are bunched up. 5 GH may not be enough to fight 20 boys, but may well be enough to kill 10 (average 3-4 dead Orks on the charge, 4 Slugga boys including Klaw Nob average about 2 dead GH in response, Orks test on a 5 or 6). And there may easily be another squad of 5 GH in another nearby transport able to join in. 10 GH shooting pistols (and possibly flamers) and charging are more than a match for 20 boys, without even needing to divert firepower which is needed elsewhere to deal with any surviving BWs.

4 BWs can only deliver (best case scenario for the Ork player) 4 assault units (and Ghazkull). Reece has a lot more than 4 units able to respond. He can also cofferdam and limit the damage of a dismounted Ork unit by doing things like having the aforementioned 5 man GH squad which was just busted out of their transport move UP 1" away from the Ork unit and spread out as far as possible to block the Orks' movement in the direction of his next unit, then just stand there and Rapidfire (and fire the flamer, if there is one). The Orks then, if distancing has been properly done, cannot reach the next unit in a single turn and are forced to spend their following turn assaulting an expendable 5 man unit. This approach can easily buy enough time for either the game to end or the Ork unit to be dealt with once firepower can be spared for it. I played Eldar with this philosophy for 5-odd years in 3rd and 4th edition- no serious counter-assault. Disposable shooting elements (and an assault element which went and hunted specific problem units and tore up the enemy backfield). If the opponent's assault elements are unable to do crippling damage to you, and he has enough points invested in them, you don't even need to kill all of them as you can delay them and win elsewhere on the table.

Ya reece your list is pretty bad. Not like your ranked in the top 10 of the U.S. or anything...


I think im going to write up battle reports of my games tomorrow. Seems like a good time to start haha.

Mannahnin wrote:You wanted the word "biased", not "bias". Would you like me to ask a few people from other countries to weigh in? I will wager that you are mistaken.

Go ahead.

Mannahnin wrote:I am explaining to you why you got the response you got. You told him his list was bad instead of asking how it deals with x, y, or z. When he knows very well that his list is not bad, that it wins in competitive venues against a wide variety of lists, and against good opposition, how do you expect him to react to your comment? He would be investing time and effort to do you the favor of disabusing you of your misapprehensions; but your post indicates that you are not open or receptive or inquisitive, so what's his incentive?

Explain how it wasn't. My first sentence already contains a question mark.

Mannahnin wrote:The difference between what you did and what Stelek does was of degree, not of kind.

Could you make yourself clearer? Which category are you referring to?

Mannahnin wrote:Although I agree that not swearing or flaming definitely puts you several steps up. Reecius did not act like a jerk at all. He was polite and mildly ironic.

Reecius wrote:I am sorry if I seemed mean, but dude, every time you say something to me it is negative. Maybe it is a language or cultural barrier and I am just misunderstanding you, but it always seems like you are flaming me for no apparent reason.

Maybe you are right, not a jerk. But he made an open false claim that I am always up to flame him. I m getting a bit curious what is his definition of FLAME?

Mannahnin wrote:Somnicide did get a little sarcastic. Which is not friendly, but again, was a response to the way you chose to communicate.

Well, yes. Somnicide was truely I don't like it when people call me names, so I probably know it's inappropriate of me to call other people names. And again, explain what you mean by "a response to the way you chose to communicate". My first post certainly doesn't display signs of being a jerk, did it?


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italiaplaya wrote:Ya reece your list is pretty bad. Not like your ranked in the top 10 of the U.S. or anything...

Well ranking means something, but not to a very large extent. Stelek has zero ranking (i m not a fan of him anyway), but beat a large number of celebrities at the NovaCon.

striderx wrote:

Mannahnin wrote: Would you like me to ask a few people from other countries to weigh in? I will wager that you are mistaken.

Go ahead.

If it's worth their time they'll weigh in.

striderx wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:I am explaining to you why you got the response you got. You told him his list was bad instead of asking how it deals with x, y, or z. When he knows very well that his list is not bad, that it wins in competitive venues against a wide variety of lists, and against good opposition, how do you expect him to react to your comment? He would be investing time and effort to do you the favor of disabusing you of your misapprehensions; but your post indicates that you are not open or receptive or inquisitive, so what's his incentive?

Explain how it wasn't. My first sentence already contains a question mark.

Okay, let's look at your post:

striderx wrote:How do you think would have change your first game if the mission was something else? List wise, your list was merely a pure spam of MLs. You have absolutely no way to stop AV14, no countercharging units (TWC), and no traffic blocking capability.
Personally, I don't like the list you are taking.

Your only question was about the mission, not about the list. You then followed up with a list of deficiencies you (mistakenly) think his list has, and a negative judgment of it. That's not going to engender a positive or warm response from most people. It's just not. Sorry to break that to you.

striderx wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:The difference between what you did and what Stelek does was of degree, not of kind.

Could you make yourself clearer? Which category are you referring to?

Stelek comes into an army list discussion with his judgment already fixed, and his mind unchangeable. He issues proclamations and the most common questions he asks are rhetorical; he's not really looking for information because his mind's made up. Your first post indicated the same attitude.

striderx wrote:

italiaplaya wrote:Ya reece your list is pretty bad. Not like your ranked in the top 10 of the U.S. or anything...

Well ranking means something, but not to a very large extent. Stelek has zero ranking (i m not a fan of him anyway), but beat a large number of celebrities at the NovaCon.

Indeed? Which "celebrities" exactly?

striderx wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

italiaplaya wrote:Ya reece your list is pretty bad. Not like your ranked in the top 10 of the U.S. or anything...

Well ranking means something, but not to a very large extent. Stelek has zero ranking (i m not a fan of him anyway), but beat a large number of celebrities at the NovaCon.

Which has nothing to do with reece. Not his fauilt Stelek rather not show up on the ranking (in which case he would probably be very close by). Yes, ranking may not mean much to most people. But its the only ranking system we have at this point.

Mannahnin wrote:1) As already pointed out to you, by deploying in separate areas of the battlefield, the MSU list can force the BWs to expose side armor.

Not going to happen as pointed out, since I don't have to split on the 1st round of movement, just the 2nd round.

Mannahnin wrote:This, along with the mobile shooting of Typhoons and Razorbacks, allows at least some of the BWs to be stopped. In addition, if the units primarily tasked with this responsibility fail, Reecius can devote some missile launchers to the job as backup. Their odds are long, but if they get a Glance through they have a 50/50 shot (thanks to Open-Topped) of stopping a BW either permanently or for a turn (2, 4, 5 on the chart).

I m assuming you didnt mathhammer off the top of your head. 15 MLs, 10 hits, 1.666 gls, 0.8333 unsaved, then roll on the damage table. Players would almost always take Armor plates, so only 5 and 6s will cripple a wagon (a 4 will be reduced to 3 - 4+1-2 = 3). Add the 6 MLs from the speeders shooting at the side and LCs on the front, everything hardly adds up to 2 devastating hits.

Mannahnin wrote:2) If a unit of 20 boys charges and busts open a SW transport, Reecius' list has multiple ways to kill them. First, since they are forced to bunch up in charging a vehicle and cannot Consolidate after killing it, Reecius' ML squads or Typhoons can Frag the crud out of the Boys.

I don't think you can wall off 18 long fangs from the first wave of assault with that list. You may enlighten me otherwise.

Mannahnin wrote:Second, two of Reecius' squads in question have flamers. A flamer can kill a substantial number of Orks when they are bunched up. 5 GH may not be enough to fight 20 boys, but they may well be enough to kill 10. And there may easily be another squad of 5 GH in another nearby transport able to join in. 10 GH shooting pistols (and possibly flamers) and charging are more than a match for 20 boys, without even needing to divert firepower which is needed elsewhere to deal with any surviving BWs.

2 flamers? Ok, assuming you cover 10 for each, that's 10 dead orks, hardly ENOUGH, assuming you have just exposed all your troops for the next wave of assault. Either you concentrate your forces, assault, and wipe out one squad, or split your forces but definitely not wipe out both squads of 15 strong each.

Alll these being said, I haven't take into account chances of 1 or 2 razorbacks being pop by lootas, deffkoptas. I left them out of the equation totally.


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Mannahnin wrote:Your only question was about the mission, not about the list. You then followed up with a list of deficiencies you (mistakenly) think his list has, and a negative judgment of it. That's not going to engender a positive or warm response from most people. It's just not. Sorry to break that to you.

Why should a negative judgement elicit a negative response? To give you a clear illustration, if your boss openly criticises your work, would you choose to get him to explain why it was bad (even though you think you did an excellent job) or would you take it personally and ignore his comments? Or would you say you choose the former for authoritative reasons?

Mannahnin wrote:Stelek comes into an army list discussion with his judgment already fixed, and his mind unchangeable. He issues proclamations and the most common questions he asks are rhetorical; he's not really looking for information because his mind's made up. Your first post indicated the same attitude.

Except that I didn't. I started off with a question, then went on to explain why I didnt like the list. My first sentence in itself was inviting for counter arguments.

Mannahnin wrote:Indeed? Which "celebrities" exactly?

I don't have to think far. DOP has a ranking, doesn't he? Well, he did lost his game against Stelek. Well, you are going to argue SW is a much stronger codex, but DOP claims he has beaten many other SWs players around.

Wowzers, I go have some dinner and come back to a pretty big hubbub.

@StriderX

Well dude, if you did not mean to be rude then no worries, I misunderstood you and I apologize for offending you. Like I said, it's just that every time you comment to something I write, you seem to be combative and I just don't feel like engaging you in conversation as I feel that you are not actually trying to talk to me but disprove me in some way.

I am an old internet fart at this point and I don't have it in me to argue about something on the net that I know to be true in reality.

You have an opinion that my army is not good.

Fine.

You are free to hold that opinion. We can't really prove anything with words, playing the game is what counts. I have lost 1 game to Orks in a tournament with my wolves, ever. And that was it.

I played the third place Ard Boyz finisher from 2009 (when it was still a national tournament) in Ard Boyz last year with my Wolves. I was kicking the crap out of his Battle Wagon Orks and he managed to pull a tie on me with some miracle dice throws in the last turn.

But again, so what? I am sure you can think of a million counter arguments to try and "disprove" that actual event.

The bottom line is that playing the game counts for more than talking about the game. I play the game a lot, against a wide variety of very good players players and armies and I have had success with my wolves to the point where I feel confident in saying that I have better than good odds to beat any army with them in any mission. You take that how you want.

You seem like you are trying to prove you are smarter than everyone or something.

Let it go dude, we are all just guys talking about our favorite game on the internet. No need to turn it into a pissing contest.

@Italiaplaya

Haha, yeah, you should write a bat rep about how you went 5-0, and got all but one battle point, but finished in the bottom third of the field with a beautiful army...that was really weird.

@Warboss_Russ
I hope you can make it to our tournament! That would be awesome, and yeah, we need to get a game in. I think I fear the Greenskins now, though! I got my butt whipped so hard that I need to have a training montage for my next Ork game.

@Thread

Sorry I don't have more pics of Wonder Woman, she was a beauty. And nice, too.

And thanks for the support guys, I appreciate it. Hopefully we will see some of you all at the Bay Area Open this summer!

Reece, you're a good dude. Honestly, one of the biggest incentives for me to go to the NOVA Open this year is to meet and hang out with some of you West coast guys who post on here.

striderx wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:1) As already pointed out to you, by deploying in separate areas of the battlefield, the MSU list can force the BWs to expose side armor.

Not going to happen as pointed out, since I don't have to split on the 1st round of movement, just the 2nd round.

If they want to go after two firebases deployed in or near two different table corners, they need to split as soon as they decide they want to go after both corners. Even if they only go after one, some side armor is going to be exposed to one fire base or the other. That's starting on turn 1, unless the BWs deploy all together in a corner (which is generally not a useful strategy for the Ork player).

striderx wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:This, along with the mobile shooting of Typhoons and Razorbacks, allows at least some of the BWs to be stopped. In addition, if the units primarily tasked with this responsibility fail, Reecius can devote some missile launchers to the job as backup. Their odds are long, but if they get a Glance through they have a 50/50 shot (thanks to Open-Topped) of stopping a BW either permanently or for a turn (2, 4, 5 on the chart).

I m assuming you didnt mathhammer off the top of your head. 15 MLs, 10 hits, 1.666 gls, 0.8333 unsaved, then roll on the damage table. Players would almost always take Armor plates, so only 5 and 6s will cripple a wagon (a 4 will be reduced to 3 - 4+1-2 = 3). Add the 6 MLs from the speeders shooting at the side and LCs on the front, everything hardly adds up to 2 devastating hits.

Depending on the exact lists in question, and the mission, he probably only needs to stop 1-2 BWs in the first two turns. If only 2 BWs get to him, he certainly has the force necessary to kill the contents. Feel free to go through the Battle Reports on here from competitive Ork players and let me know what percentage of them take Armor Plates. I never see it.

striderx wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:2) If a unit of 20 boys charges and busts open a SW transport, Reecius' list has multiple ways to kill them. First, since they are forced to bunch up in charging a vehicle and cannot Consolidate after killing it, Reecius' ML squads or Typhoons can Frag the crud out of the Boys.

I don't think you can wall off 18 long fangs from the first wave of assault with that list. You may enlighten me otherwise.

You haven't yet deduced that the 18 Long Fangs aren't bunched up in one place? Jy2's posts didn't make it obvious to you that they're spread out, in different parts of the table? After a squad of Boys is out of their BW, they have considerably shorter threat range and more limited movement. An infantry unit can easily be walled off/stalled by another infantry unit, in the manner I described. 5 GH can make (essentially) a wall up to 13" long that an infantry unit can't move through in the movement phase.

striderx wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Second, two of Reecius' squads in question have flamers. A flamer can kill a substantial number of Orks when they are bunched up. 5 GH may not be enough to fight 20 boys, but they may well be enough to kill 10. And there may easily be another squad of 5 GH in another nearby transport able to join in. 10 GH shooting pistols (and possibly flamers) and charging are more than a match for 20 boys, without even needing to divert firepower which is needed elsewhere to deal with any surviving BWs.

2 flamers? Ok, assuming you cover 10 for each, that's 10 dead orks, hardly ENOUGH, assuming you have just exposed all your troops for the next wave of assault. Either you concentrate your forces, assault, and wipe out one squad, or split your forces but definitely not wipe out both squads of 15 strong each.

What? If 20 Boys charge and crump a Razor, covering 10 or more models with a flamer template is generally not going to be a problem. If 10 GHs charge 10 Boys, the Boys get slaughtered. ~ 6 dead before they even swing, then the Boys kill about 2 in return (mostly thanks to the klaw), and test at -4. What "next wave" exactly? If 1-2 battle wagons are stopped before they move or after one turn of movement, only a couple of units are across the table on turn 2, getting shot and assaulted on bottom of 2 or top of 3, and the Boyz stranded behind aren't in threat range yet as they're still footslogging. Reece's 20 GHs with two flamers and 3 Dreads with 2 heavy flamers are going to be more than sufficient to deal with 40 Boys at a time, and if some element of that has gotten killed or is out of position, he can throw in some Frag templates from elsewhere in his army to help out. If 4 BWs (or possibly 3, depending on the mission and situation) make it all the way across the table, sure, he's in trouble. But if only 1-2 do, and/or 1-2 squads of Boys at a time, he can certainly deal with that. And he's got the guns to stop half the battlewagons, unless his dice crap out or the Ork player gets extremely lucky on KFF saves early.

Yeah, when you play BW Orks the tactics are quite simple. You divide your forces from a central point and take the BWs out with side armor shots. You move laterally to your flanks forcing BWs to move away from KFF protection.

It is easy, really.

The LFs then carpet bomb the Orks that were inside the BWs out of existence.

Bjorn will single-handedly wipe out a mob of Orks. I have had him do it many, many times.

JotWW snipes Klaws out of Mobs, then the Dreads run in and Tarpit them for the rest of the game.

I use these tactics all the time against Orks, it is really not complex.

But again, words prove nothing. The fact is my list can, has and will defeat Orks...hahaha, it is just not going to happen when I have to run at the bloody Greenskins.


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@Kurb

ANd after the event? Haha, my Wolves went back to the salon to get waxed and primped for the next big pageant!

striderx wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Your only question was about the mission, not about the list. You then followed up with a list of deficiencies you (mistakenly) think his list has, and a negative judgment of it. That's not going to engender a positive or warm response from most people. It's just not. Sorry to break that to you.

Why should a negative judgement elicit a negative response? To give you a clear illustration, if your boss openly criticises your work, would you choose to get him to explain why it was bad (even though you think you did an excellent job) or would you take it personally and ignore his comments? Or would you say you choose the former for authoritative reasons?

Again, I ask what is the incentive? Are you his boss? If your boss gives you criticism about your work, you have good reasons to react to that and interact with him. He has influence in your life, work environment, and pay. If a random stranger comes up and tells you that you are bad at your job, when you know very well that you are good at your job, why bother arguing with him? Let him live his life in ignorance; his opinion counts for nought.

striderx wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Stelek comes into an army list discussion with his judgment already fixed, and his mind unchangeable. He issues proclamations and the most common questions he asks are rhetorical; he's not really looking for information because his mind's made up. Your first post indicated the same attitude.

Except that I didn't. I started off with a question, then went on to explain why I didnt like the list. My first sentence in itself was inviting for counter arguments.

Perhaps this is an issue with your English. It is your first language? It seems very good, but at this point I'm at a loss for how to explain the meaning of your words to you any better. I quoted your first post, and I broke it down for you. Let me try again: You asked him a single question about the mission, then made several declarative statements about his army. You came to multiple erroneous conclusions about his army, and you shared those conclusions and your negative judgement with Reecius in declarative fashion rather than asking him a question like "How do you stop 4 Battlewagons normally?" Not sure how I can make this any clearer. If you still don't understand, I recommend re-reading your post and re-reading the responses a few more times and contemplating it until it starts to make sense to you.

striderx wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Indeed? Which "celebrities" exactly?

I don't have to think far. DOP has a ranking, doesn't he? Well, he did lost his game against Stelek. Well, you are going to argue SW is a much stronger codex, but DOP claims he has beaten many other SWs players around.

I think you are taking this notion of "celebrities" (which MVBrandt and the guys involved meant entirely tongue-in-cheek) too seriously.

Anyway, I need to head to bed...

Reecius wrote:Well dude, if you did not mean to be rude then no worries, I misunderstood you and I apologize for offending you. Like I said, it's just that every time you comment to something I write, you seem to be combative and I just don't feel like engaging you in conversation as I feel that you are not actually trying to talk to me but disprove me in some way.

I would gladly accept that apology. But saying you are sorry, and then proceed with the following accusation :-

Reecius wrote:You seem like you are trying to prove you are smarter than everyone or something.

doesn't quite tell me you are apologetic.
So I am trying to prove I am smarter. How so? Because I make an attempt to explain myself and post lengthy comments here? If that the case, isnt Mannahnin doing the same thing?

Mannahnin wrote:If they want to go after two firebases deployed in or near two different table corners, they need to split as soon as they decide they want to go after both corners. Even if they only go after one, some side armor is going to be exposed to one fire base or the other. That's starting on turn 1, unless the BWs deploy all together in a corner (which is generally not a useful strategy for the Ork player).

You seem to be fixated on the fact that the deployment is going to be pitched battle. On a spearhead deployment, you don't have the luxury of deploying on opposite ends. On a pitched battle deployment, the ork player just have to elect one side where it will expose its side armour, and the other its AV14 front armour. Also by deploying that way, you expand your foot print and make yourself extremely vulnerable to 1st turn koptas assault, more so if you start 2nd.

Mannahnin wrote:Depending on the exact lists in question, and the mission, he probably only needs to stop 1-2 BWs in the first two turns. If only 2 BWs get to him, he certainly has the force necessary to kill the contents. Feel free to go through the Battle Reports on here from competitive Ork players and let me know what percentage of them take Armor Plates. I never see it.

My mathhammer in my previous post shows that with 6 MLs on the side, +EVERYTHING else he has on the front, it hardly adds up to 2 devastating hits, in fact not even 1.5.
I m quite surprised you doubt the existence of armour plates in a wagon list, because it pretty much is a no brainer upgrade in a mech assault. If you have just spent 100++ odd points on a AV14 transport plus 200+ odd points of assault contents, and the whole strategy of your army is to get into assault as soon as possible, you wouldn't want a D6 roll of 2 to spoil your day. Trust me, if there is an upgrade to stop immobolised result, people will take them as well. On a side note, do you play orks? - Just curious.
As for evidence, DOP 's ork list has armour plates upgrade. Click his Ard Boys battle report. I could probably dig out a few other examples, but it just means more of my time. But I suspect you will be happy with DOP as the example.

Mannahnin wrote:You haven't yet deduced that the 18 Long Fangs aren't bunched up in one place? Jy2's posts didn't make it obvious to you that they're spread out, in different parts of the table? After a squad of Boys is out of their BW, they have considerably shorter threat range and more limited movement. An infantry unit can easily be walled off/stalled by another infantry unit, in the manner I described. 5 GH can make (essentially) a wall up to 13" long that an infantry unit can't move through in the movement phase.

Ok, I didnt expect you to use GHs to wall off your long fangs, because that's suicide. But I m pretty confused now. You said after my 1st wave of assault, your GHs will disembarked and flame+assault my orks. Now you are saying your GHs will disembarked as sacrificial units to bubble wrap your Long Fangs against the 1st wave of assault? You can only choose to do ONE thing, you know that right?

Mannahnin wrote:What? If 20 Boys charge and crump a Razor, covering 10 or more models with a flamer template is generally not going to be a problem. If 10 GHs charge 10 Boys, the Boys get slaughtered. ~ 6 dead before they even swing, then the Boys kill about 2 in return (mostly thanks to the klaw), and test at -4. What "next wave" exactly?

By your description, you seem to be concentrating your forces onto 1 squad of 20. Then my question is - you are leaving yourself to be counter assaulted the next turn by the other squads of boys?

Mannahnin wrote:If 1-2 battle wagons are stopped before they move or after one turn of movement, only a couple of units are across the table on turn 2,

Would you kindly illustrate/mathhammer how you reliably stop 1 or 2 wagons with a single turn of shooting (lets assume the SW player starts 2nd)? You may be seeing something I don't see, but my mathhammer definitely told me otherwise.

Mannahnin wrote:Reece's 20 GHs with two flamers and 3 Dreads with 2 heavy flamers are going to be more than sufficient to deal with 40 Boys at a time,

Just curious, do you think these are even sufficient to deal with just a single Ghazghkull ??

Mannahnin wrote:If 4 BWs (or possibly 3, depending on the mission and situation) make it all the way across the table, sure, he's in trouble.

By your definition, he should be in trouble most of the time. Because no matter how I mathhammer it, if the ork player goes first, the likelier chances are 3 wagons will survive the onslaught and its contents be in charge range (reliably with the waaagh of Ghaz) by ork turn 2. Also, I exclude koptas, lootas, etc in my assessment.

Mathhammer is a guide, not an absolute. The game is played on the tabletop, not a computer. This thread shows me beyond a shadow of a doubt that Mannahnin is a Saint. Dakka would be a worse place without his infinite patience.

More Wonder Woman !!!!

DarthDiggler wrote:Mathhammer is a guide, not an absolute. The game is played on the tabletop, not a computer. This thread shows me beyond a shadow of a doubt that Mannahnin is a Saint. Dakka would be a worse place without his infinite patience.

+1

That mission beat you Reece. It was one of the ones I argued most strenuously against but I guess it made it in. Glad you got to drink and oggle Wonder Woman

Some fun and interesting reports. Glad you had a decent showing. Not surprised that the 5-0 didn't win. And I'm not surprised that a guy that actually lost a game won the event. I'm sure the Nurgle armies were very fluff tastic though we'd have to wait to see if they got their "hardcore" score.

Looking forward to drinking and gaming our way thru Adepticon buddy. At least it was good practice for that

Thanks for the battle report Reece! Always an interesting read!

Strider, it must be said, as someone who has no bias or interest either way, there's a world of difference between how I read your posts and I read Reecius's. All of yours seem to be some kind of anal attempt to score points off of everything the other person says. There's no jokes, there's no warmth, no orkmoticons. No casual dialogue, and whilst civility is retained, the tone it conveys is of someone indulging in some kind of pseudo-academic debate where you're treating everything the other chap says as a point which HAS to be rebutted. Reecius on the other hand, sounds more friendly, and like he's more about drinking beer, having a laugh, and ogling wonder-woman, then trying to win internet debates with someone who seems to be treating the whole discussion as 'srs business' to use internet slang.

That's the opinion of someone with nothing invested either way, who knows neither party, in a country other than America.

So lighten up man. We're having a discussion about toy soldiers. Inject some humour and friendliness into those posts of yours, and you'll find a world of difference in how people respond to you.

If someone tells you come off a certain way, instead of spending two pages arguing why you don't come off that way, and saying its all their perception, maybe consider that you do come off that way? And for a reason? From there, its only a short step to adjusting how you post slightly, and having a great time on Dakka as a result!

Reecius plays footdar for crying out loud! You can't believe anything he says, them pointy ears is tricksy. Hell, look how surprised he is to see Wonder Woman in the first place.

Something is amiss!

Invite her to Adepticon to be our mascot Reece! Your team will thank you

Hulksmash wrote:Invite her to Adepticon to be our mascot Reece! Your team will thank you

Stay tuned.......

Mannahnin is a saint with infinite patience. My new mantra when posting will try and be WWMP. The crusade to class up this joint is not in vain.

StriderX - if multiple people think you came across as rude, that probably means you came across as rude. Granted, I wasn't as polite as I should have been - sorry, too much hollywood makes one snarky. However, maybe next time a lot of people say (directly or indirectly) "hey you are being pretty rude" take a second rather than attacking everyone else. I know in the past I have been rightly called out for being snarky and the first instinct is to attack everyone else. Now I try and reread what I wrote and see if it could have been construed as uncool.

Apologies to Reecius for playing a part in derailing your thread.

I stopped reading this thread after staring at the Wonder Woman pic for about 20 minutes. Did Reece win with his crappy list?

Lol !! That was so funny!

I am seriously considering asking Wonder Woman if she'd like to come up and be a "Ring Girl" so to speak at our Bay Area Open tournament. She definitely injected a lot of fun into the event.

Mannahnin is pretty dang patient, I just started tuning stuff out! Haha. And thanks for coming to my defense buddy, you made all the points I would have and did it kindly.

And like Darth said, Mathahmmer is no absolute. The more I play the game competitively the more I come to realize that a game between two good players with good lists often comes down to just luck. Who gets that one lucky break they need, when they need it.

@Hulk

Yeah bro, count on it! We will be drinking and laughing at the Adepticon TT for sure. The championships I will be wearing big boy pants and coming out to try and win (with the same crappy list) but the TT is for fun. We'll try and win it for sure, but there are so many variables in that tournament there's no need to take it too seriously.

That missions and the last mission were the ones I argued against most strenuously, too. But, oh well.

The top guys did get the hardcore award. Charlie didn't, and would have won the tournament had he gotten it. It seemed really arbitrary. Like, how do you make a "fluffy" Nid list? Or IG? Aren't they ALL fluffy? Too subjective for my taste.


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@Somnicide

No worries man, it's no big deal. People can skim the bits they aren't interested in reading.

@Ozzy

Haha, no I sure didn't win, but I had fun and I think Wonder Woman was feeling me a little bit! So that counts as a win in my book!

Good battle report Reecius.

Your first opponent had a pretty a good list. IMO 2 of his Battle Wagons in the pics you posted are unconventional. They seem a bit wider, which increases their frontal arc. I've played in a tournament where an Ork player fielded 2 Forge World Ork Battle Fortress as Battle Wagons. I guess tournament organizers are pretty lenient about conversions.

Judging from the pics of your 4th match, it looks like your opponent didn't effectively protect his lazorbacks with his AV13 vehicles. Haha, jawing Meph! Well played!

It seems lady luck had her hand in many of your games.

+1 to wonder woman pic!

striderx is a no need to call anyone names. We can all tell.

Thanks for sharing Reecius!

Sabrx:

2 of the battlewagons are converted Land Raiders, that's why they look a bit wider. The Ork "battlefortress" from FW actually isn't all that much bigger then the new plastic battlewagon, it just has a different look.

@Sabrx
Thanks, man! Your reports definitely look cooler with all the great pictures, but I am in the habit of doing the reports quick and dirty. I just like to present the basic info to make them quick reads for people at work.

Yeah, round 4 he could have created walls with his armor, but I believe he was trying to maximize the distance covered to get to me quickly. It was spearhead and I deployed in my back corner to maximize the distance between us.

@Whitedragon

Yeah, you got it. The converted Land Raider is so much better as it is a wider front. Sort of modeling to advantage, but oh well. Not like it made a difference this time around! His KFF was on fire, nothing got through. I was shooting the crap out of them, but he saved every frickin shot but 2!