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I couldn't take this thread, but I just wanted to chime in that I also think Somnicide is a jerk. The previous sentence is also an example of there being no tone on the internet.

@Reecius: Nice reports, makes me sad I didn't get to go to the BSB. I was really looking forward to getting completely annihilated in game two with Farsight Tau. Winning don't matter tournaments is the only time I get to play him!

@striderx - your dismissal of the list is noted. Get over it. You weren't asked for your input or opinion of the list, this is the battle report forum. You dismiss every point made by the list author or any defenders offhand. Just declare yourself right and move on, or get a friend to play your Orks and proxy up this list and play 10 games with it and see if you can win. Constant "if you do THIS then I do THIS and what about THIS and you only get 1.5 THIS" is making this whole discussion sound like when little kids argue about which transformer would win. You're talking to someone who has game experience beating Orks with their list, and saying that it isn't possible. Either you're missing something just talking/thinking about the list, or they're lying, or they only play terrible Ork players. Just pick one to believe and move on!

You said it!

I don't get how someone can think that their hypothetical theories somehow negate reality.

Oh well, who cares. He is absolutely entitled to his opinion and that is fine.

Are you gong to the SiS, Lambadomy? That is always a fun tournament and you need to get revenge on my IG with your Tau!

Re: "saint" business-

You guys are too kind. I was up late and in the mood for an internet debate. Plus I genuinely do like talking tactics online and trying to expand people's knowledge. Today the sun is shining, I had a good job interview, and I'm relaxing on Dakka. You can lead a horse to water and all that, but I don't feel like tugging the tether any more today. Time to go Moderate some stuff and/or read some more enjoyable fare. Thanks again for the report, Reece! Hope to see you at NOVA.

Congratz on the job interview! Finding a good job these days is hard.

I will be at NOVA and Adpeticon, so I am sure we will get to have a beer!

Thanks! I'll definitely see you at Adeption, then. NOVA isn't settled yet, but I'd like to do that too.

@Reecius:
I am probably going to the slaughter in space, but after playing some Tau test games recently to try to play them in the next Sprue Posse event, I think they're shelved until they get a new codex. I can win with them, but it's just not fun to play and can be so frustrating. Plus, I already got my revenge with hot Bjorn on Bjorn action!

@Mannahnin

See you there!

@Lambadomy

Haha, indeed you did! Your Bjorn-fu proved to be superior to mine!

@lambadomy please bring an army with very fragile and expensive models that I can break :-)

Hahahaha !!! Good one Som.

Stri"NAMECALLING IS A VIOLATION OF DAKKA RULES" said,
By your definition, he should be in trouble most of the time. Because no matter how I mathhammer it, if the ork player goes first, the likelier chances are 3 wagons will survive the onslaught and its contents be in charge range (reliably with the waaagh of Ghaz) by ork turn 2. Also, I exclude koptas, lootas, etc in my assessment.

He has Bjorn in his list the Orks will not be going first very often.

The first list had one kopta and no lootas. The second list had 12 lootas and 6 koptas, but only 2 battlewagons. Furthermore, neither list had Ghaz. Why not try applying your "constructive" nonflaming critiques to army's he actually played in a comp. heavy tournament.

Nice job fighting the Free Market Orks! (That's what I call them, anyway).

Good batreps.

DarthDiggler wrote:Mathhammer is a guide, not an absolute. The game is played on the tabletop, not a computer. This thread shows me beyond a shadow of a doubt that Mannahnin is a Saint. Dakka would be a worse place without his infinite patience.

Mathhammer is a guide, yes. But it is a basis upon which we make calculted risk. If what I have highlighted are just the AVERAGE, it simply means things are going to be bad more often than not. Funny, you guys know this fact (because it has been discussed countless times in the forum), but is now changing your stance suddenly.

Somnicide wrote:StriderX - if multiple people think you came across as rude, that probably means you came across as rude. Granted, I wasn't as polite as I should have been - sorry, too much hollywood makes one snarky. However, maybe next time a lot of people say (directly or indirectly) "hey you are being pretty rude" take a second rather than attacking everyone else. I know in the past I have been rightly called out for being snarky and the first instinct is to attack everyone else. Now I try and reread what I wrote and see if it could have been construed as uncool.

And you know that your post came off more as a jerk than mine did, right? Because more than 1 person said so too. If anything needs to be moderated, it would be your post first.

SabrX wrote:
striderx is a troll. We can all tell.

Thx for showing us how much of a jerk you are :-).
@Mannahnin, you are going to do your job, aren't you? I remember calling "trolls" is not allowed here I have been following the rules, didn't I?

lambadomy wrote:You dismiss every point made by the list author or any defenders offhand. Just declare yourself right and move on, or get a friend to play your Orks and proxy up this list and play 10 games with it and see if you can win. Constant "if you do THIS then I do THIS and what about THIS and you only get 1.5 THIS" is making this whole discussion sound like when little kids argue about which transformer would win. You're talking to someone who has game experience beating Orks with their list, and saying that it isn't possible. Either you're missing something just talking/thinking about the list, or they're lying, or they only play terrible Ork players. Just pick one to believe and move on!

Actually dismissed is not the correct word. I was telling Mannahnin his mathhammer might be wrong, and therefore assumption invalid. I gave him a chance to show me how he did his math (apparently he didnt, or wasn't able to), the same way he challenged my views. If anything I did was wrong, Mannahnin did the same thing.

ChainswordHeretic wrote:The first list had one kopta and no lootas. The second list had 12 lootas and 6 koptas, but only 2 battlewagons. Furthermore, neither list had Ghaz. Why not try applying your "constructive" nonflaming critiques to army's he actually played in a comp. heavy tournament.

Because these units are arguably more common and efficient in a ork mech assault list? In most assault list, you want to have something which can pop light transports/reduce mobility before you go in for the kill.
Your point on Ghaz is valid though, maybe Reecius haven't met a list that has both Lootas, and Ghaz, maybe he did. In any case, it just means that the threat is there, isnt it?

Bro.

Please give it up. You aren't contributing anything to the thread.

You think my lists sucks and Battle Wagon Orks will beat it most of the time.

Fine.

Everyone gets it.

Let's just drop it, this argument is pointless.

Reecius wrote:Bro.

Please give it up. You aren't contributing anything to the thread.

You think my lists sucks and Battle Wagon Orks will beat it most of the time.

Fine.

Everyone gets it.

Let's just drop it, this argument is pointless.

I ain't arguing for it anymore, since Mannahnin dropped it already. I m merely responding to comments.

Ketara wrote:Strider, it must be said, as someone who has no bias or interest either way, there's a world of difference between how I read your posts and I read Reecius's. All of yours seem to be some kind of anal attempt to score points off of everything the other person says. There's no jokes, there's no warmth, no orkmoticons. No casual dialogue, and whilst civility is retained, the tone it conveys is of someone indulging in some kind of pseudo-academic debate where you're treating everything the other chap says as a point which HAS to be rebutted. Reecius on the other hand, sounds more friendly, and like he's more about drinking beer, having a laugh, and ogling wonder-woman, then trying to win internet debates with someone who seems to be treating the whole discussion as 'srs business' to use internet slang.

Well thx. I actually felt better after seeing how many other comments here were moderated. It goes to show that I m not the worst jerk here . At least, I don't lower myself and resort to calling names.

striderx wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:StriderX - if multiple people think you came across as rude, that probably means you came across as rude. Granted, I wasn't as polite as I should have been - sorry, too much hollywood makes one snarky. However, maybe next time a lot of people say (directly or indirectly) "hey you are being pretty rude" take a second rather than attacking everyone else. I know in the past I have been rightly called out for being snarky and the first instinct is to attack everyone else. Now I try and reread what I wrote and see if it could have been construed as uncool.

And you know that your post came off more as a jerk than mine did, right? Because more than 1 person said so too. If anything needs to be moderated, it would be your post first.

I never wrote that. You quoted the wrong person.

It was Somnicide.
I edited that.

striderx wrote:Well thx. I actually felt better after seeing how many other comments here were moderated. It goes to show that I m not the worst jerk here . At least, I don't lower myself and resort to calling names.

Dude, you called like everyone in the thread a jerk!

You are welcome to join the conversation but just think about how your words and the way you write them will make people react.

But enough of that, the issue is dropped.

Lol, i dont get why hes still fighting his point. No one is on his side. But anyways good showing reece whether you lost or not. At least you still finished top 10.

Reecius wrote:Dude, you called like everyone in the thread a jerk!

Again, that's an accusation. Or, do you define EVERYONE differently from the standard definition
My comment was targetted at those who resorted to calling names.

Just to show you that by claiming I was calling everyone a jerk, you are giving an untrue and bias comment.

italiaplaya wrote:Lol, i dont get why hes still fighting his point. No one is on his side. But anyways good showing reece whether you lost or not. At least you still finished top 10.

What point? THat I wasn't a jerk because at least I didnt call names? Well, that was a fact, I don't need your support. Not like I m playing some children games.

Ketara, I ve shown some improvements, didnt I? Look at the emoticons

Mannahnin wrote:Striderx, when you go into a thread being rude to people and seemingly looking for an argument, and are the first person in the disagreement to start calling other people names, you lack the moral authority to start looking down on others.

Any further posts from you in this thread will be deleted as off topic. Please don't make any.

LOL, I wonder how is it that I started the calling of names first when my first post was a hit on the list.
Way to show your prejudice. I suspect your next excuse will be to ban me.

Whoa I just found a reason to use the ignore feature....
Diggin the bat reps Reecius... Shame they aren't as detialed as usuall but I can forgive that since there are some wonderwoman pics!!!

Okay, putting the moderator hat on again:

Striderx, when you go into a thread being rude to people and seemingly looking for an argument, and are the first person in the disagreement to start calling other people names, you lack the moral authority to start looking down on others.

Any further posts from you in this thread will be deleted as off topic. Please don't make any.

I know for a fact that Reece is a terrible player.

I mean really, He got tabled at the BSB.

He always just pays off his ork opponents.

Game 1 was the first time a player did not take his bribe.

Of course this opinion has nothing to do with the fact that he tabled me at a GT.

Thanks for the Bat reps.

I am very curious about the new location for the BSB. How were the facilities?

Im kind of a fan of wacky rules and having a tourney not always be about who brought the best meta lists with them. No offense but you guys wrote this tournament off like it wasent a real tourney, and thats not how the game is played. If everyone thought ard boyz was how everything should be it would kind of kill the whole "hobby" part and there would be alot of grey plastic armies everywhere. I am always grateful when a tournament dosent just write off army balance and painting as a footnote. Not that anyone here said that the tourney was junk or anything, but it seemed to be written off as practice or insignificant compared to all the other cookie cutter tourneys out there, instead of taken as a challenge to bring the hobby sides A game.

Anyway now that I have done my longwinded soapbox speach, a few questions. How does your wolves deal with the other top tier meta in other tourneys with more standard missions? Does say heavy mech guard give your list fits?

And one more question, how do black templars measure up as a shooty army now with their rules changes. It seems like 3 termie squads with 2 cyclones each are a good answer for longfang spam, but taking the elite spots you have no tarpit dreads with flamers to tie up assault. Do you feel theres a top tier shooty list in there? I love the paint scheme, and have had them for 8+ years but was thinking about adding some points to fill out my choices more. Mabye vindicators to replace dreads, or more cheap typhoons.

More Reece Coverage of the Bash at...

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2011/02/24/indy-gt-curcuit-broadside-bash-review-and-results/

Orock wrote:And one more question, how do black templars measure up as a shooty army now with their rules changes. It seems like 3 termie squads with 2 cyclones each are a good answer for longfang spam, but taking the elite spots you have no tarpit dreads with flamers to tie up assault. Do you feel theres a top tier shooty list in there? I love the paint scheme, and have had them for 8+ years but was thinking about adding some points to fill out my choices more. Mabye vindicators to replace dreads, or more cheap typhoons.

You're shootie terminators should be bought as terminator command squads for your characters, freeing up your elite slots.

Cool picture with Wonder woman, where are the battle reports?

whitedragon wrote:

Orock wrote:And one more question, how do black templars measure up as a shooty army now with their rules changes. It seems like 3 termie squads with 2 cyclones each are a good answer for longfang spam, but taking the elite spots you have no tarpit dreads with flamers to tie up assault. Do you feel theres a top tier shooty list in there? I love the paint scheme, and have had them for 8+ years but was thinking about adding some points to fill out my choices more. Mabye vindicators to replace dreads, or more cheap typhoons.

You're shootie terminators should be bought as terminator command squads for your characters, freeing up your elite slots.

Unfortunatley now that the emperors champ counts as an hq you can run solo if you want, he also takes up a hq spot, leaving only one elite choice freed up if you take a marshal or castelian. That only frees up one unit.

Orock wrote:

whitedragon wrote:

Orock wrote:And one more question, how do black templars measure up as a shooty army now with their rules changes. It seems like 3 termie squads with 2 cyclones each are a good answer for longfang spam, but taking the elite spots you have no tarpit dreads with flamers to tie up assault. Do you feel theres a top tier shooty list in there? I love the paint scheme, and have had them for 8+ years but was thinking about adding some points to fill out my choices more. Mabye vindicators to replace dreads, or more cheap typhoons.

You're shootie terminators should be bought as terminator command squads for your characters, freeing up your elite slots.

Unfortunatley now that the emperors champ counts as an hq you can run solo if you want, he also takes up a hq spot, leaving only one elite choice freed up if you take a marshal or castelian. That only frees up one unit.

Where does it say that about the champion? I just double checked GW faq and it says (emphasis mine) "Q. Can I field the Emperorʼs Champion as my one compulsory HQ choice and no other HQs in the army? (p31) A. Yes, even though he does not use up an HQ slot, he is still an HQ choice, and so he can fulfil the minimum HQ requirement."

@Orock:

I think the problem is that there are different types of wacky missions, and the vast majority of the ones I've seen are extremely unfair to entire codexes, not just certain types of armies. Or they put in a random element intended to make the mission interesting, but instead effectively decides half the games. It is definitely possible to write and test good, interesting, different missions. But the amount of time/effort/tweaking/playtesting required is pretty much never put into it, and it shows.

I have zero problem with tournaments that make painting and modeling worth as much or even more than battle points, especially if they have a good rubric where time and effort combined with decent artistic skills will get you close to max points. I don't like anything that penalizes players before the games have even started though, such as bonus points for signing up early, or submitting army lists, or for "themed" or "fluffy" armies. I had considered ditching my previous engagement to go to the BSB but once I found out I was being penalized because I hadn't made up my mind 3 weeks ahead of time, it made the decision not to play easy. And fluff and theme is completely subjective and has no place when you're handing out prizes, because anyone can make up a good theme for any army list, so if you don't give them the points it isn't because it isn't fluffy enough, it's because it isn't fluffy enough TO YOU, or because the army is "too good" and that is somehow the same as "not fluffy" automatically.

The BSB unfortunately has many elements that work together to make it less of a tournament and more of a hobby hang out. A few of the missions are quite unfair, there are relatively few points to be scored in battle, and there are too many points to be scored by non painting/modeling and playing (which is what the hobby really is now).

While I agree that missions that ask you to get to the opponents side hurt armies like gunline or parking lot lists, the chance of having to play them in a tournament is the only thing that keeps variety of armies coming. If you knew ahead of time every mission was killpoints, and there was 3 pieces of terrain per board, tournaments would be the shooty A lists spam. Does it suck to have to have 5 objectives on the board when your playing space wolves missile parking lot. A bit. But it sucks more when tournaments have 4 flavors of armies that show up with little variation too.