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Drachii wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:I don't visit YMDC very often (first time in here in six months at least).

I wonder how much screaming there would be if I started mentioning this to players who use those rules. Like SoS for BA players.

If you wander past random BA-hosting tables and mention this, you can probably garner the approval of Slaanesh, Tzeentch and Khorne all at the same time >.>

I play BA and I used to have arguments over how it didn't work on vehicles. I gave up once it seemed certain GW began disregarding their own rules and treating hits as interchangeable with wounds. So, now I enjoy a 5+ cover save that occasionally stops a melta shot.

As for the KFF, as other people have said: Majority in it, 4+, any part of the unit in it, 5+.

I can see the logic behind what is being said but I see the other side as being equally logical:
I quote " A kustom forcefield gives all units within 6" of a Mek a cover save of 5+. Vehicles within 6" are treated as being onscured targets. "

So a unit of Kans is in 6" of the Mek. So it qualifies even if there is just one Kan in that range. But as the BRB says vehicles don't get cover saves unless they are obscured (this part is especially important as the codex was written in 2007 just before the afore mentioned obscured/cover save rules where writen when GW was still sticking to it's rules)
Next line tells me what to do: If that unit is vehicles then they get obscured instead...

Before everyone jumps at me I do understand that it is not purely RAW. But by RAW there is a section missing. It covers vehicles, and units but not units of vehicles. And RAW is full of sh*t anyway like the already mentioned SoS etc ...

RAI it is a 4+ or nothing and it is not clear how it should work with squadrons

Snozcumb3r - I assume you just ignroed every other post which gives the correct answer here?

Units are units, whether they are infantry or vehicles. The rules for squadrons even tells you to treat them as units of infantry when it comes to working out if the unit gets a cover save.

So if you have a majority of the unit within 6", you receive a 4+ cover save from being "obscured" by wargear.

It is hideously clear how it works with squadrons. Really, really it is.

Thi ol song and dance again eh? Basically Dash, before the game starts, you need to just talk it over with the opponent and see what they say about it. Its not FAQed, its not ERRATA so there isnt a definite THIS IS HOW IT WORKS answer. As always there are people on both sides and they will argue until the end of days.

Personally I do the 50% or more and the entire unit gets the 4+, if less then 50% then its a 5+. And as always Im sure this will be argued. I already petitioned GW for the deffrolla thing, someone else can take up this fight

I agree with Nos.

This is frighteningly simple.

First you use the rules for Vehicles And Cover (in this case simplified by the KFF) to determine if and how many vehicles are Obscured.

Second you use this information combined with the rules for Infantry And Cover, to determine if the entire unit can claim a cover save.

It is not one or the other. We are told to use both....quite clearly even.

Okay I think I finally got a grasp on this. A squad of killa kans is BOTH a UNIT and a VEHICLE. KFF gives the entire UNIT a 5+ invulnerable save AND gives each VEHICLE within 6" of it a 4+ cover save. That's actually quite good against weapons that ignore cover saves.

5+ saves for units are coversaves, too.

So, that one kan that *is* withing the 6" bubble doesn't get a 4+ obscured save either right? As the majority of the unit is outside of cover thus does not get it?

Ask 4 different people and get 4 answers.

sn0zcumb3r has it right in my opinion. The issue is that the piece of equipment lists what to do for units and vehicles, but not units of vehicles.

As only one model of a unit must be within the 6'' to covey the cover save, it is most logical that a unit of vehicles with 1 vehicle within 6'' of the BM is affected in the same manner. Instead of granting a 5+ cover save it instead grants Obscured to the unit of vehicles. Which conveys the 4+ save. All of these saves would be cover saves.

CageUF, that's just not supported by the rules. The way I broke it down is easy, clean, and compatible both with the KFF rules and the rules for squadrons in cover.

Your proposed solution violates the rules for squadrons getting cover saves from being Obscured.

yodissray - not quite. You get a 5+ coversave when one model is within 6"

CageUF - no, Snozcumber does NOT have it right. The urles tell you, ridiculously clearly, that units of vehicles are treated as any other unit when it comes to Cover.

What does the INAT say?

Who cares what the INAT says (the respect for the work put into it)?

It has zero impact on the rules as they are discussed here.

I care what the INAT says. It's made by a veteran group of gamers carefully hashing out issues much as we do here, with reference to the same rulebooks, FAQs, and similar cases which we consider.

While it does NOT have the status of official rules, it is certainly a useful resource for players, especially ones who play in tournaments which use it.

Even for those who do not, it provides a wonderful, incredibly clear & professionally laid-out and diagrammed additional resource to players who want a neutral answer to a disagreement they have on rules which is not anwered by the official sources.

While again, it is not official, as long as references to it are clearly labeled, it can certainly be a helpful and appropriate thing to reference for informational purposes.

The only thing the INAT can do in this case, is to change the rules.

The rules are perfectly clear.

Also keep in mind that the INAT is quite content with ruling against perfectly clear rules, if it appears counter-intuitive or a sufficiently large number of people play the wrong way.

I totally respect the amount of work put into the INAT, but it is of no help in this case.

Mannahnin wrote:

Toxxic wrote:kans are vehicles and thus get a 4+ save(obscured for being a vehicle). One model needs to be withing 6" for the entire unit to get the save.

Mannahnin wrote:As Nos said- KFF does two things:

It gives Ork units within 6" (per the definition on p.3; just one model has to be within range) a 5+ cover save.
It ALSO makes Ork vehicles within 6" count as obscured. So if at least one but less than half of the models in an Ork vehicle squadron are within 6" of the KFF, they just get a 5+. If at least half of them are in range, they get the 4+.

Not to say the Inat is perfect but it helps to establish what is the norm. In this case the Inat doesn't have an opinion. Least not the copy I currently have.

The logic of Mannahnin and others who share his opinion isn't wrong, its just their opinion.

The question is whether or not having a piece of wargear that confers "obscured" to a vehicle in a squadron confers "obscured" to the entire squad or just the one vehicle. As the KFF bubble extends the 5+ save to any unit in this fashion, it is my OPINION that the obscured save functions in this same way for vehicles.

If we were discussing a cover save for a squad of vehicles that was behind cover Mannahnin's view would be dead on, no arguement.

CageUF, if the KFF rules said that it conferred the obscured status on vehicle squadrons within 6" you would be correct.

Instead, it says it confers a 5+ cover save to units within 6" (which means at least one model, per page 3), and it confers the Obscured status on vehicles within 6".

This really is cut & dried.

Is the vehicle within 6" of the KFF? If so, it counts as Obscured. ARE at least half of the vehicles in the squadron Obscured (p64, p22)? Then the whole squad gets the cover save. If not, they don't.

Mannahnin wrote:
This really is cut & dried.

Respecfully disagree. The reasoning has already been stated.

is a squadron a unit? yes. Then they get a 5+ cover save for having one model within 6".

are 50% of the squadron within 6"? then they also get a 4+ cover save form obscured.

whitedragon wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:
This really is cut & dried.

Respecfully disagree. The reasoning has already been stated.

And the reasoning doesnt follow any of the rules.

Tri wrote:is a squadron a unit? yes. Then they get a 5+ cover save for having one model within 6".

are 50% of the squadron within 6"? then they also get a 4+ cover save form obscured.

This is exactly how I look at it, and play it.

I would point out that if it is unclear if there is a cover save or not, it's recommended in the BRB to reduce the cover save by 1, which *also* results in a 5+ with one kan in the field and the rest not.

Wow this makes Kan Wall seem not so good anymore. Unless of course you pack all your kans in so tight to get at least 2 within 6" of each mek but in doing so you're bottle necking your army. God help you if you go against a Hydra Flak spam.

Requia wrote:I would point out that if it is unclear if there is a cover save or not, it's recommended in the BRB to reduce the cover save by 1, which *also* results in a 5+ with one kan in the field and the rest not.

How can it be unclear if there is a cover save with a KFF?

Did you miss the people in the thread saying a single kan in a group of three being in the field would get no save?

What Chris is asking is; "How can it be unclear whether a Killer Kan is within 6" of a KFF or not?"

Requia wrote:Did you miss the people in the thread saying a single kan in a group of three being in the field would get no save?

No, they DO get a 5+ cover save, they just dont have a majority that are obscured and thus do not get a 4+ save.

You then have to determine whether you think they are allowed to use this 5+ save in any meaningful way, however that is a different discussion (GW appears to not realise this requires a rules change)

Listen guys, some of you have pretty loud voices here on dakkadakka so I am writting so that others are heard too.

There are many things that while they are hideously clear by GW rules it is also hideously clear that they failed and ment something different.
One big example is cover saves and invunerable saves that vehicles get but by RAW can't actually use. Another example is the rune priests murderous hurricane which can by RAW affect units all over the board well out of it's intended 18" range.

RAW I have nothing to argue to the contrary of what has been said in this thread except that I believe there is a part missing. As Nos says
"The rules tell you, ridiculously clearly, that units of vehicles are treated as any other unit when it comes to Cover" so since the KFF only requires 1 model to be within 6" to get it's cover save then the unit of Kans get's it. But vehicles can't use 5+ cover saves (indeed when this codex was written they couldn't even get them) that's why ten words further on it uses the word "obscured" and not "get's 4+ cover save"

To me it is clear that they left part of the rule out, and didn't consider the possibility of squadrons when writting the rule

Except, as has been pointed out a million times: that doesnt matter.

Units of vehicles == units of ANY model when it comes to cover saves. Seriously. that's it.

Its so simple! If one kan is within 6" then the whole squadron is obcured. End of story. The squadron rules state that you use infantry squad rules when determining cover. Next the KFF state how that squad gets their cover save (any model of a unit within 6" of KFF gets 5+.) So that means ANY MODEL OF ANY UNIT (of anything) gets that save. The second part of that rule i.e. vehicles tells us that they will count as obscured....4+. end of story