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Yeah man I read full posts.

Exergy wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

ChrisCP wrote:In the face of DE's Anit infantry, DoA looks dodgy. In the face of Razor Spam, DL weapons are 'yay'.

really DE cant take that many DLs anymore. Against a really heavy mech list they (or well me) find that its hard to kill the vehicles fast enough.
DLs are only better than lascannons against AV14 and blasters are only better than meltaguns at ranges between 12-18"

All I was saying is one doesn't need to 'kill the vehicles fast enough' - shaken or stunned will get the job done in the end.
The first two line of my reply detail this, then I go on to say if there wasn't a lot of transports the AP2 still has high utility against BA.

I'm not sure how you reached the conclusion that I was talking about a couple of transports, as opposed to a mechanised force?

Well here is what a list might look like at 2K

Libby with jump pack

30 assault marines, 3 power fists, 6 melta guns

10 scouts with ML and teleport homer.


3 priests: 2 with jump packs, 1 in terminator armor

10 Assault Terminators, 5LC 5 TH/SS


18 Dev squads (3 squads of 6) with 15 ML. The 6th marine is an ablative wound.

Pros
Model count of 72 models offers heavy target saturation.
3 priests should ensure that the 72 models are in a FNP bubble.
No vehicles means target denial for anti vehicle weapons
4-8 scoring units, 40 scoring models
11 Kill points
13 Krak missiles per turn offer decent long ranged firepower.
30 assault marines provide a decent fast assault element.
10 assault terminators with a librarian and priest joining make a decent deathstar unit.

It would be a good well rounded all comers list that doesn't attempt to dominate any 1 aspect of the game.

Tactics would be highly variable depending on what the opposing army is.

ChrisCP wrote:

Exergy wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

ChrisCP wrote:In the face of DE's Anit infantry, DoA looks dodgy. In the face of Razor Spam, DL weapons are 'yay'.

really DE cant take that many DLs anymore.

If BA (as that's the army under discussion) doesn't have a large number of transports, they willquickly fin their troops on foot,in which case DL weaponary is some of the bet for DE again as it dodges the good ole SM3+ and BAs potential FNP too..

So in one post you are talking about Razor spam. In the next you say BA doesnt have a lot of transports. How does a Razorspam list not have many transports?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

schadenfreude wrote:Well here is what a list might look like at 2K

Libby with jump pack

30 assault marines, 3 power fists, 6 melta guns

10 scouts with ML and teleport homer.


3 priests: 2 with jump packs, 1 in terminator armor

10 Assault Terminators, 5LC 5 TH/SS


18 Dev squads (3 squads of 6) with 15 ML. The 6th marine is an ablative wound.

looks nasty
I dont run one of these following lists so I cant say for sure but what if you draw an opponent with lots of Terminators. Deathwing, CSM with lots of termies or lots of mega armored nobs? 6 melta guns and 13 models with power weapons might not but it. Those armies are pretty rare though. Maybe add a little plasma?

I was thinking hordes could be a problem, but frag missiles should take care of that right.

Exergy wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:

Exergy wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

ChrisCP wrote:In the face of DE's Anit infantry, DoA looks dodgy. In the face of Razor Spam, DL weapons are 'yay'.

really DE cant take that many DLs anymore.

If BA (as that's the army under discussion) doesn't have a large number of transports, they willquickly fin their troops on foot,in which case DL weaponary is some of the bet for DE again as it dodges the good ole SM3+ and BAs potential FNP too..

So in one post you are talking about Razor spam. In the next you say BA doesnt have a lot of transports. How does a Razorspam list not have many transports?

Actually it was all the same post, read full posts man!

ChrisCP wrote:The purpose of DL in Dark Eldar armies is to shake or stun transports or just shake fire platforms - not to blow them up, that's gravy.
Stun, move on, explodes and think to self wow nice bonus there, move on, shaken - oh well move on, stunned Yay!
So on and so forth. If BA (as that's the army under discussion) doesn't have a large number of transports, they will quickly fin their troops on foot,in which case DL weaponary is some of the bet for DE again as it dodges the good ole SM3+ and BAs potential FNP too.

Is it that hard to follow? Shake or stun the transports, you'll have pleanty of DL avalible.
If they don't take razor spam, then woo@AP2.

But, to be more direct, you would have had to removed the section of my post talking about shaking transports - it was in the middle of the post - when quoting me. Are you intentionally trying to misquote me?

schadenfreude wrote:

Jaon wrote:Problem is: Your giving your enemy a target when there is literally nothing else to shoot at on the first turn. They will just get wiped off the board by anything thats in range.

Fnp meq units deployed in cover are not fragile.

5 men and a relatively wasted sanguinary priest cannot expect to survive an entire enemy armies shooting phase, even if it is from just the 36'+ guns.

schadenfreude wrote:Well here is what a list might look like at 2K

Libby with jump pack

30 assault marines, 3 power fists, 6 melta guns

10 scouts with ML and teleport homer.


3 priests: 2 with jump packs, 1 in terminator armor

10 Assault Terminators, 5LC 5 TH/SS


18 Dev squads (3 squads of 6) with 15 ML. The 6th marine is an ablative wound.

Pros
Model count of 72 models offers heavy target saturation.
3 priests should ensure that the 72 models are in a FNP bubble.
No vehicles means target denial for anti vehicle weapons
4-8 scoring units, 40 scoring models
11 Kill points
13 Krak missiles per turn offer decent long ranged firepower.
30 assault marines provide a decent fast assault element.
10 assault terminators with a librarian and priest joining make a decent deathstar unit.

It would be a good well rounded all comers list that doesn't attempt to dominate any 1 aspect of the game.

Tactics would be highly variable depending on what the opposing army is.

1. 18 Dev's can't have 15 MLs, max of 4 per squad...4 X 3 = 12
2. Assault Terminators are walking? Bad idea with the rest of your army JPing
3. Libby uses his JP to walk with Termies? What? Why?

2k Efficient JP Army w/ Dev Support

2x Libby w/ Jump Pack
1x HG w/ Flamer/Melta
2x Sang Priest w/ Jump Pack
4x ASM (PF/PW, 2x Melta/Flamer)
5-man Scout Squad w/ CC, Sniper Rifle/Bolter
3x Dev Squads (4x MLs)

That is the army I have been playing, very effective, haven't really had any issues yet besides some poor rolls.

MadMaverick76 wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:Well here is what a list might look like at 2K
1. 18 Dev's can't have 15 MLs, max of 4 per squad...4 X 3 = 12 .

I was going to say something but, not having a BA codex in hand, I wasn't sure.

MadMaverick76 wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:Well here is what a list might look like at 2K

Libby with jump pack

30 assault marines, 3 power fists, 6 melta guns

10 scouts with ML and teleport homer.


3 priests: 2 with jump packs, 1 in terminator armor

10 Assault Terminators, 5LC 5 TH/SS


18 Dev squads (3 squads of 6) with 15 ML. The 6th marine is an ablative wound.

Pros
Model count of 72 models offers heavy target saturation.
3 priests should ensure that the 72 models are in a FNP bubble.
No vehicles means target denial for anti vehicle weapons
4-8 scoring units, 40 scoring models
11 Kill points
13 Krak missiles per turn offer decent long ranged firepower.
30 assault marines provide a decent fast assault element.
10 assault terminators with a librarian and priest joining make a decent deathstar unit.

It would be a good well rounded all comers list that doesn't attempt to dominate any 1 aspect of the game.

Tactics would be highly variable depending on what the opposing army is.

1. 18 Dev's can't have 15 MLs, max of 4 per squad...4 X 3 = 12
2. Assault Terminators are walking? Bad idea with the rest of your army JPing
3. Libby uses his JP to walk with Termies? What? Why?

2k Efficient JP Army w/ Dev Support

2x Libby w/ Jump Pack
1x HG w/ Flamer/Melta
2x Sang Priest w/ Jump Pack
4x ASM (PF/PW, 2x Melta/Flamer)
5-man Scout Squad w/ CC, Sniper Rifle/Bolter
3x Dev Squads (4x MLs)

That is the army I have been playing, very effective, haven't really had any issues yet besides some poor rolls.

The # of ml was a typo.

The 3 dev squads only cost 90 more points than 15 assault marines with 3 melta guns, and they take a lot of pressure off the need for doa melta guns to perform.

schadenfreude wrote:

The # of ml was a typo.

The 3 dev squads only cost 90 more points than 15 assault marines with 3 melta guns, and they take a lot of pressure off the need for doa melta guns to perform.

Okay, I understand that. I wasn't disagreeing with that, my question was why Assault Termies? Why a JP Libby with them as well? Those terminators are a big point sink.

MadMaverick76 wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:

The # of ml was a typo.

The 3 dev squads only cost 90 more points than 15 assault marines with 3 melta guns, and they take a lot of pressure off the need for doa melta guns to perform.

Okay, I understand that. I wasn't disagreeing with that, my question was why Assault Termies? Why a JP Libby with them as well? Those terminators are a big point sink.

They are not needed, but are a viable option. Going with more assault marines is also a viable option. Assault termies are more of a viable option in an army that has scouts and devs mixed in with assault marines than a pure DOA army.

A libby would deploy with the assault marines, I was saying it's an option to jump the libby within 2" of deep striking assault termies and have him join that squad once they arrive.

I always take 3 dreadnoughts with 2 TL autocannons in my jump lists. They are relegated completely to anti-transport with Str 7 but,
* they do a great job up to AV12
* they can move and shoot
* they each have 4 TL shots
* smoke launchers
* they are much more durable to long range fire than a Dev squad
* they can move on from the edge and shoot DoW is not as bad
* they are 10 points cheaper

You just need to have something else, like DS melta to deal with heavier tanks

rdlb wrote:I always take 3 dreadnoughts with 2 TL autocannons in my jump lists. They are relegated completely to anti-transport with Str 7 but,
* they do a great job up to AV12
* they can move and shoot
* they each have 4 TL shots
* smoke launchers
* they are much more durable to long range fire than a Dev squad
* they can move on from the edge and shoot DoW is not as bad
* they are 10 points cheaper

You just need to have something else, like DS melta to deal with heavier tanks

rifleman dreads can be silenced with shooting pretty easily, although with that load out they do sound nasty. They are also elites not heavy support right? Not exactly a perfect swap out.

Well, Dev's do not fit into a DoA army.
First, the Dev's should be deployed at the very beginning of the game, while the DoA units eventually deep strike. This means that the enemy can concentrate fire on the Dev's and eventually wipe them out.
Second, the DoA units need to get close and personal to do some damage, while the Dev's will eventually sit at the other side of the board having nothing to shoot at (I know this situation from my 13. Company; therefore, I switched the LFs to Bikers).

AgeOfEgos wrote:Absolutely Devs are good in a DoA army. Else;

Turn 1 he does nothing/moves
Turn 1 you do do nothing

Turn 2 he moves 7+ inches and pops smoke
Turn 2 you get 75% of your melta guns which 50% are ignored by smoke. If you have VV, they need 6s to hit a moving vehicle.


Two squads of Devs means either he pops smoke first turn and tries to save some rhinos/tanks from devs....or takes fire first turn to save the melta shots coming in 2nd turn. Neither is a good choice for your opponent.

Assuming you only play 100% mechanized lists that's true. However most of us play versus armies that aren't. Technically it's not a DoA army if you field a unit such as Devs.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:

AgeOfEgos wrote:Absolutely Devs are good in a DoA army. Else;

Turn 1 he does nothing/moves
Turn 1 you do do nothing

Turn 2 he moves 7+ inches and pops smoke
Turn 2 you get 75% of your melta guns which 50% are ignored by smoke. If you have VV, they need 6s to hit a moving vehicle.


Two squads of Devs means either he pops smoke first turn and tries to save some rhinos/tanks from devs....or takes fire first turn to save the melta shots coming in 2nd turn. Neither is a good choice for your opponent.

Assuming you only play 100% mechanized lists that's true. However most of us play versus armies that aren't. Technically it's not a DoA army if you field a unit such as Devs.

"Most of us" is a statement that has no qualification. I could as easily state "Most of us play mechanized armies".

If you are that literal on the technicality of Devs disqualifying an army from being a pure DoA list...I'm not sure why you would bother entering a thread discussing the strategy of deploying Devs in a DoA list.

Tyranids, horde orks, blob IG, DoA, Deathwing, etc. There are lots of non mech armies people are playing.

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Tyranids, horde orks, blob IG, DoA, Deathwing, etc. There are lots of non mech armies people are playing.

Just as there are lots of mech armies....and I would probably be safe to say most people face Rhinos/Chimeras/Land Raiders/Wave Serpents on a pretty consistent basis. Additionally, lack of mech does not make ML Devs anymore useless....they are perfectly viable against many of the foot builds out there (In fact, probably more so considering many foot lists you probably won't DoA on other than Term Wings). Anyways....back to painting...

I played in a tourney this weekend - four games. Two were against ork horde and Daemons. A couple of weekends ago I played versus two Nid armies in a tourney. I am adding Necrons to the list... Played them too.

Here one the main problem with a DoA list, that includes a DEV sqaud, they are there all by themselves for one turn and you have to go first. The other thing is that Victory Point games, DoA has a really hard time with DE, but any other armies BA doesn't have that much of a problem. In a 2500 point games i would include the BA DEV, just because we have enough points to does so.

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:Here one the main problem with a DoA list, that includes a DEV sqaud, they are there all by themselves for one turn and you have to go first. The other thing is that Victory Point games, DoA has a really hard time with DE, but any other armies BA doesn't have that much of a problem. In a 2500 point games i would include the BA DEV, just because we have enough points to does so.

That's an interesting question regarding certain armies----scalability.

For example, I feel the Vanilla Marine dex scales well----as you can consistently take quality units in each FOC to scale your army. IG scales well due to 1-3 selections for certain units----Nids may not scale as well, etc. That would actually make a semi-interesting article/discussion---Scalability of Armies.

How often are you playing 2500 point games?

2500pt is 'Ard Boyz size, when it's that time of the year 2500pt play picks up a fair amount for a lot of people.

As for Devs in a jump/DoA army... I didn't like them on my first go out, but I'm giving them another shot. Anyone consider taking them with Razorbacks to get some more shots/board presence when they start on the table and everything else goes DoA? This helps a little for games where they'll enter from reserves too as it lets you get them into better positions to shoot from quickly. It's expensive to do though, which is a problem (3 RBs + weapons could get you a full Assault Squad + other goodies I think).

I agree that Dev's don't work in a DoA army. I originally called it a JP Army w/ Dev support for this very reason. The only thing that I will say though is that it seems now-a-days that DoA = JP Army, whether or not you actually intend to use the DoA ability. I ran a DoA army, it didn't do too hot consistently against anything other than Mech Guard, with that said I converted over to a JP Army with Dev support and have had great success, but I have also found a Dread Heavy JP List does quite well on it's own as well.

Well, the tag "DoA" army is misleading. It would be a really bad idea to narrow your approach by saying "I'll always DoA" and it'll actively contribute to not winning games. It is not always a good idea to deepstrike your army. Lately I'm deploying on table just as much as, if not a little more often than I'm deepstriking. DoA simply makes the decision to deepstrike easier and more effective by making it safer to land and more damaging when you land due to the increased consistency in which you get your units and accuracy of unit placement.

I still like the ability to DoA, although I generally only do it with Mech armies like IG and only when they are castled quite close to one another. I have also found a nice balance to DoA, in regards to when I play at 1500, I sometimes put everything on the table except for a squad of HG w/ Meltas. That way I can still keep my opponent guessing and watching his flanks while still having to maintain a solid gun line.