O&G Nasty Skulkers, No Go?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**zentdiam**

I use them exactly as matt has stated and they work wonders in my anvil units. They can be used to push back any character you do not want in the front rank. With a full command and 3 skulkers in a 5x? or 6x? unit, when they appear you can push back any character.

**HoverBoy**

Sounds like a nice shaman bunker then.
Not to mention enemy chars are likely to try and assasinate shamans making it likelier that you get to go skuly on them.

**Biophysical**

Something I hadn't really thought about until recently: Nasty Skulkers aren't model upgrades like Bosses, Standards, and Musicians. They're characters that you add, so they're only 7 points more than adding a goblin. You could, if your opponent was incredibly unlucky, gain a rank in combat.

**jamshaman**

Minsc wrote:
Leenus wrote:Minsc, you are missing the point of skulkers. Their value comes in a 30 point "gamble" at assassinating a character. You should be deploying them and moving them to achieve this goal where appropriate. If you take skulkers, that should be how you aim to use them. If you want to take them to kill a few extra RNF guys, then you would be better served by taking 10 extra goblins. Their benefit is also to make a 180 point or so unit of goblins a threat to these characters, as your warboss can't be everywhere to crack 1+ saves.
The thing is, their character-killing potential is heavily limited as well. For instance, compare them to Skaven Assassins and Dark Elf Assassins.

Dark Elves start with a high initiative, ASF (maybe only the turn they're revealed? Not sure here), get re-rolls to hit from Hatred, and - very often - get 4+ attacks that are high-WS with a "Wound on 3's" poison (that also, usually, means at least a -2 to enemy armor saves). A Skaven Assassin gets their four poisoned attacks, has a natural 4+ Ward, WS6, decent initiative mixed with ASF, can choose to replace their poisoned weapon with something like a D3 wound Weeping Blade, etcetera.

A Skulker versus a character... isn't much better. If it engages in a challenge, it gets three attacks that need 5's to hit (unless fighting a Wizard, and I can think of very few WS3 or WS4 wizards that'll declare challenges and either be vulnerable to Killing Blow or have an ace up their sleeve) and (again unless fighting mages) either 5's or 6's to wound. If outside a challenge, you get more opportunity, but are still limited insofar as having a low "To hit" and "To wound" odd without re-rolls.

Giving them WS3, giving them Hatred first-round, giving them re-roll failed to wounds when deployed, something other than just throwing on ASF, KB, and Extra Attack +2 on the model, those could increase their value. As it is, they aren't a reliable investment though: They're comparable to a Skull Wand of Kaloth. Yeah, for a fun game you might as well take 'em, chuckle as you roll for 'em and start going "Woo!" if they work right. However, predominantly you should expect them to not work right, and go "Oh, I am having brought cloak and dagger to Hero-fight" before getting smacked aside by the follow-up attacks.

Leenus wrote:I also think this whole boss idea is bad. They are way too easy to kill and give up instant points, even if it's 30-40. The point of 8th is to (IN GENERAL) take larger units that are harder to get points off of.
Personally, I've always been of the opinion "Goblin Warbosses > Goblin Big Bosses, Goblin Shamans > Goblin Great Shamans". You take your Goblins in Lord format since they get WS5 (which is very big for hand-to-hand), you take the Shamans at Hero-levels as the additional +1-+2 is much less effective for a Goblin than an Orc Shaman. I've also predominantly been of the opinion that "Goblins = Expendable Anvil", and that you should very rarely try to treat a Goblin unit as anything else: Unless you have some good spell access through a Wizarding Hat (or can hit someone in the flank / rear and use sneaky stabbin'), you shouldn't expect Goblins to win combats on their own, but instead either tie someone up or negate steadfast while some hammer smashes into the flank / rear to provide active combat resolution.

OK, now you're opening a can of worms comparing O&G (2nd or 3rd tier at best) to DE and Skaven which are top tier. OF COURSE skulkers can't compare.. Also, you're comparing the Skulkers to assassins which are base costs of 90 and 120 points for DE and Skaven, respectively.

But so far most people on this thread seemed to have missed the point: The Skulkers are NOT an upgrade to a model, they are a SEPARATE model for 10 points. That means you're getting a 3 attacks, ASF, KB, armor piercing model for 10 points - that's about a 3 point cost per attack.. That's a steal! - if you could upgrade a normal goblin to having +2 attacks, ASF, KB and AP for free, would you? Of course! Yes I know the Skulkers only have 1 wound, but with ASF they will likely get their attack off before they die, which is about all you can ask for from a goblin... But again, they are added to the unit - meaning a unit of 30 goblins will actually be a unit of 33 with the Skulkers.

The front rank flooding is totally viable. In a 5 wide unit they will necessarily push any characters to the second rank assuming that you only have a musician and standard. If you also have a boss/champion then one of the skulkers would have to go in the second rank in this example.. So now your enemy has to choose between hitting your R&F troops or allocating to the Skulkers which are just as easy to kill, but if he doesn't kill the Skulkers then he has to deal with their 3 KB, armor piercing attacks the next round (which he probably will since the goblins will be steadfast due to high numbers..). So now he is screwed both ways, because if he kills the Skulkers then a Big Boss steps up from the second rank (which must happen according to the rules).

Also, the point of 8th is to take larger units, but the concept of concentration of power will always be present, i.e. ganging up on units to wipe them out. This is why you take Big Bosses - it's for that extra 1-2 wounds in combat rez that might win you the fight.. Yes Lord levels are of course better, if you have the Lord point space for them, because most of your 25% Lord point allocation will be made up of the general and L4 Orc Shaman + magic items for them.. I could see taking Warbosses over Big Bosses in 2500+ games..

Having said all of that, giving the Skulkers armor piercing instead of poisoned attacks is kind of lame. I know it fits in with the fluff, but it's just one more thing that keeps the O&G down..

**Red_Zeke**

I ran up against a massive unit of goblins with tons of characters and skulkers. It was interesting because I had to separate out my attacks to allocate. I was swinging with hammerers, so did in most of what I attacked, but they probably cut my wounds inflicted by 3 or 4, because I had to double up on single wound skulkers.

Another neat use, is that, as characters, they'll be able to challenge. So if someone sends in an uber character, with 3 skulkers and a champ, it's going to be 4 rounds before the character can even swing on rank and file...

**HawaiiMatt**

The down side to skulkers is challenge.
If they don't kill an enemy unit champ, that unit champ can rack up a bonus 50 points for taking out a character.
Like all goblins should, decline challenges.

-Matt

**Biophysical**

And hopefully the 2 Skulkers that don't get forced to the back rank can put an end to the challenger before all the Skulkers are consigned to back rankers.

**Warpsolution**

I'm pretty sure they're decent choices. They are not as devastating as fanatics, but they cost nearly a third as much, and also don't swing back into your units and kill your dudes.

They are less reliable in what they're supposed to do, but more reliable in what they're not.

Would everyone here be a little more hesitant to charge a unit that (may) throw up to 9 ASF KB attacks at your BSB? I certainly would.

For the record, Jamshaman, Skulkers aren't actually assassins. They're just gobbos who are really good at what gobbos do. They slit throats and cut tendons, and they've had practice at it.
And I, for one, don't want them to have poison, since that would negate Killing Blow (one of the reasons I suggest Black Lotus for Dark Elf assassins who are actually, you know, assassins; to give more chances for KB).

**RiTides**

HawaiiMatt wrote:The down side to skulkers is challenge.
If they don't kill an enemy unit champ, that unit champ can rack up a bonus 50 points for taking out a character.
Like all goblins should, decline challenges.

-Matt

I must have missed this in the rulebook until now... is there a VP bonus for winning challenges in 8th?

**Red_Zeke**

Underdog bonus. If a champion wins a combat against a character, it's worth 50 VPs!

Helpful especially for some of those monstrous creature champs that have multiple wounds and can hit hard.

**Biophysical**

Or Swordmasters. I keep trying to convince my friend who runs High Elves to put a potion of strength on his Bladelord.

**Wehrkind**

Oh damn, I forgot about that bonus! That really is pretty sexy on ogre champs who are very often every bit as beefy as most characters. Or a mino champ with sword of Swift Slaying. Hrm...

Sucks for the gobbos though :(

**HoverBoy**

Seems like skulkers suck due to a bonus that will occur in one out of every six missions.

**Warpsolution**

I dunno...with low WS, T, and armour, it should be pretty easy for even a standard dude with two attacks to take down one of these guys about half the time.

You could try to take down the champion, I guess, but that's less attacks directed towards the BSB or whatever.
...you could issue a challenge with the gob boss, and...hope they don't accept with the BSB?

Really, though, it's *only* 50-150pts...