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nosferatu1001 wrote:Fair enough, good old forum misunderstanding there

If you want to be even more sure of avoiding any issues around dice rolling then having a table with cushions like in Craps would work - make sure the players have to roll along the surface to bounce off a cushion and you have removed most of the issues around natural rolling / other ways to influence otherwise fair dice.

I'd certainly see if you can stump up for at least some semi precision dice - the basic GW / chessex cast and drilled dice are horribly imbalanced.

I can just imagine a cup full of casino dice careening off the sides of the tables. Especially if some one is bringing Orcs, Nids, or IG to the table.

That would be an awesome sight......

I would like to see some battle reports from it though

nosferatu1001 wrote:Fair enough, good old forum misunderstanding there

If you want to be even more sure of avoiding any issues around dice rolling then having a table with cushions like in Craps would work - make sure the players have to roll along the surface to bounce off a cushion and you have removed most of the issues around natural rolling / other ways to influence otherwise fair dice.

I'd certainly see if you can stump up for at least some semi precision dice - the basic GW / chessex cast and drilled dice are horribly imbalanced.

I've already taken the liberty of acquiring a a block of 36 Koplow dice, which are square instead of rounded, although they still have drilled/depressed/etched pips. Interestingly, ordering them online (plus shipping) was cheaper than a block of chessex dice from either the Chessex website or a FLGS. Imagine that; a better product and cheaper too!

I have a pre-game speech that I give before every tournament game where I do four things.

1. I roll some of my dice on the table, then explain that I will always pick up misses and leave hits for my oponent to inspect, then ask them to do the same for me. I also tell them that they are welcome to use my dice anytime during the game (which no one ever takes me up on after they see me rolling with them, for fear of cursing themselves)
2. I cock a dice, and explain that if any dice I roll are cocked on the table (I can't put a dice on it) I will reroll it regardless of result, and that any die I roll that scatters off the table onto another table, crack between a table, or onto the floor I will re-roll. If I'm using a dice tray, I also explain that any dice that bounce out of the dice tray during a roll I will pick up and re-roll in the tray regardless of result.
3. I demonstrate how I measure by placing one of those rolled dice on the table, putting the tape measure down on the table next to the die, then moving the die up to the measured range (Usually 6 or 12"). After the die is in its final position, I pick the tape measure back up off the table.
4. I demonstrate how I will *not* measure (also serves to inform my opponent what I consider cheating) by doing two things - First I extend the tape measure 12" in the air forward of one of my models, eyeball the final position, take the tape measure away, then put the model roughly where I think the tape measure was (with a bit of extra included). Second, I put the tape measure 12" in front of my model in the air", then pick up my model and move it 12" forward, leaning forward to place it while I do - so that the tape measure moves forward with my lean.

In terms of dice rolling, if I ever see someone about to roll a scatter dice somewhere not close to the unit/template in question, I stop them and ask them to roll it close to the thing in question.

A *lot* of people seem to have depth perception issues with the direction that their scatter should take, and its actually an easy geometry fix that doesn't require a referee to measure for you. The first player (doesn't matter which) extends their tape measure directly over the scatter dice in the appropriate direction and angle. The second player hooks THEIR tape measure to the first one, precisely perpendicular and extended over the blast marker / scatter position / drop pod / whatever. The first player removes their tape measure, goes over to the unit, then hooks THEIR tape measure perpendicular to the other player's tape measure and measures out the distance of the scatter.

As a note, I generally only do this if my opponent is doing a *really* bad job with the direction measure, and then only if their *bad job* is advantageous to them. I'm *very* good at eyeballing where these should be, and if the result is generally the same I'll let it go, and if their direction is negatively impacting them (like when they should be scattering onto a vehicle, not next to it and getting a direct hit on me) I'll just do the measurement myself and show them where it should have landed. No one tends to argue with me when I say their scatter should have gotten a better result. =p

And finally, I have a dice box made out of a felt-lined amazon shipping box which has been reinforced with boxing tape on the outside. I don't use it much anymore because it has two flaws, which the next iteration will fix.

1. Its about 4" high, which makes it hard for an opponent to see the dice results inside without standing up (and sitting down at the table when you can, especially during game 3 through 5 when you're tired and sore is nice). I still pick out the misses, then give the box to my opponent to inspect, but it is awkward.

2. The carboard flaps and the overlapping felt on the bottom of the box leave several "mini-ledges" that can naturally cause cocked dice.

The next iteration of my dice-box is going to be assembled piecemeal. A single piece of form fit stiff card-board that is felt lined to precise shape will line the bottom. The sides will also be form cut cardboard (either from one box or individual pieces I haven't engineered yet) such that there are no felt pieces to overlap and the sides and bottom of the box will be independently glued together, leaving me with a roughly 1-2" high dice box with a completely flat bottom.

The technical aspects of the game (dice, measurement, etc) I'm not concerned about at all because I conduct myself with the utmost precision and care, and put my expectations out to my opponent before we ever roll for sides.

It seems like you're in need of a rules aficionado, and if so, theres only 1 man for the job.

**Queue A-Team Music**

If you have a problem
If no-one else can help
And if you can find him
maybe you can hire, G.W.A.R

Disarray, are you going to fly him over from Ireland?

Yeah, Gwar doesn't even play 40k. =p

He knows/knew the rules up/down/backwards/forwards, but that was his hobby - he never got into the actual models and gaming. =p

Mannahnin wrote:Disarray, are you going to fly him over from Ireland?

Not everyone can afford the A-Team! (and its not my high-stakes match!)

Dashofpepper wrote:Yeah, Gwar doesn't even play 40k. =p

He knows/knew the rules up/down/backwards/forwards, but that was his hobby - he never got into the actual models and gaming. =p

That's fine, you don't need him to play, just to ref right ?

Disarray wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:Disarray, are you going to fly him over from Ireland?

Not everyone can afford the A-Team! (and its not my high-stakes match!)

Dashofpepper wrote:Yeah, Gwar doesn't even play 40k. =p

He knows/knew the rules up/down/backwards/forwards, but that was his hobby - he never got into the actual models and gaming. =p

That's fine, you don't need him to play, just to ref right ?

@Vito

LOL I have a t-shirt with that EXACT image on it. I love it.

@ Vito & Dash - Will the amount EVER be disclosed?

I really like the idea someone had of using a 3rd person to write a batrep, then allowing you both to add your commentary to it. If you choose someone with a history of writing decent batreps, it would compliment the game nicely.
If it's stremed online, I wouldn't get to experience it. Watching videos of other people game bores me. I like reading about them or being there in person, though.

Eric

As long as it's on Youtube the week following the game, everything will be ok.

You should 100% live stream this match, or at the very least post the full video later. I think too much of the subtly of high level play is lost in battle reports, since you cannot always bring up every minute detail or even remember them all.

Given what's "on the line" here, I know I'd definitely want to sit through 2 hours to see what all the hubub is about in terms of skill levels involved and a picture / word battle report will never accurately convey that skill.


I also think you guys should definitely reveal what's at stake here. If you're going to go so far as to promote this event, make public challenges and get the community all fired up about the game, don't go 80% of the way. If this game was for $200 bucks, I'd be slightly interested, but not really care (final GT games can sometimes be worth that much). If it's for $2,000 then daddy's going to be interested in seeing what happened! Don't worry about the emo nerds who cry about the gaming being "for fun" or "why do you need to put money on the line to have fun." If you're going to make a spectacle (which is what you're trying to do), then do it right.

*Ahem* (Puts on Announcer voice)

"IN THIS CORNER, WEIGHING IN AT EIGHT-HUNDRED POUNDS OF SOLID GREEN MUSCLE, WE HAVE THE MASTER OF THE MASHUP, THE DUKE OF DAKKA, THE KING OF KRUMPIN', THE MEAN, GREEN MAN HIMSELF, DASH-OF-PEPPER!

AND THE CHALLENGER, WEIGHING IN AT TWENTY-SEVEN POUNDS OF BLUE SKINNED NOBILITY, THE TERROR OF THE RANGE, THE RUMBLER WITH A RAIL-GUN, GURU OF THE GREATER GOOD, CHE-VITO!"



Rather hope Che's actually using a Tau force, here.

Anvildude wrote:*Ahem* (Puts on Announcer voice)

"IN THIS CORNER, WEIGHING IN AT EIGHT-HUNDRED POUNDS OF SOLID GREEN MUSCLE, WE HAVE THE MASTER OF THE MASHUP, THE DUKE OF DAKKA, THE KING OF KRUMPIN', THE MEAN, GREEN MAN HIMSELF, DASH-OF-PEPPER!

AND THE CHALLENGER, WEIGHING IN AT TWENTY-SEVEN POUNDS OF BLUE SKINNED NOBILITY, THE TERROR OF THE RANGE, THE RUMBLER WITH A RAIL-GUN, GURU OF THE GREATER GOOD, CHE-VITO!"



Rather hope Che's actually using a Tau force, here.

Are you going to be there? Because we're going to need a reporter, and while I suspect Chumbalaya will be helping (since he did such a great job on the radio last year), that would be fun commentary.

Ha! I'd love to, but I think it'd be a little difficult getting away from classes to fly or drive across the state, even if only for a weekend. I'm sure you'd be able to find someone else to help out, though.

I'd be willing, if a detailed Batrep is created, and bios of various characters and units were given, to maybe write up a short novelization of the fight, though. That's something I think should be done more often, to help give folks something to imagine during games.

I'm curious, though. Do high-level games like yur'n go by that quickly, that you'd actually be able to do a running commentary on them? Because that'd actually be pretty awesome, make a whole big production of it with a 'radio broadcast' podcast along with everything else, with an announcer there for the crowd.

Why would you require army lists months in advance?

Money, dear boy!

But why? Wouldn't that open up all kinds of possible suspicious activity because of said "money"?

Dash, you should get a table and be like a pool hustler and wager $100 a game.

I know I could use your $100.

Blackmoor wrote:Dash, you should get a table and be like a pool hustler and wager $100 a game.

I know I could use your $100.

In that case, I still have your $100 IOU from the Socal Slaughter in Space last year. Want my mailing address or just my paypal? =D

I assure you, I've thought about every angle that I can trying to monetize 40k. People are just not confident enough in their abilities by and large to bet on it.

This past weekend my third round opponent at a local RTT started crowing when we got paired up. He's like, "Dash, you're going to lose. I made THIS LIST FOR YOU, I was hoping to get paired off against you, and this is the day where you go down." I was like, "Lets put $20 on it." And he wouldn't.

I'd play 40k for money if there were enough like-minded folks. Not enough gamblers play 40k. ><

Hmm, still not sure its legal. VA gambling law tracks alot of states and prohibits betting on "the result of any game, contest or any other event the outcome of which is uncertain or a matter of chance." When you start to throw dice in there, it starts to look more like a game of chance, even if there are other factors involved. The control needed of the dice to prevent cheating is another indicator that the result is chance dependant- you can't win if the dice are rigged.

I don't know how they would rule on the "dominant factor" test. It might be more skill based. But judges there may not agree.

I recommend talking to a gambling law attorney. Especially if this involves "alot" of money.

jmurph wrote:Hmm, still not sure its legal. VA gambling law tracks alot of states and prohibits betting on "the result of any game, contest or any other event the outcome of which is uncertain or a matter of chance." When you start to throw dice in there, it starts to look more like a game of chance, even if there are other factors involved. The control needed of the dice to prevent cheating is another indicator that the result is chance dependant- you can't win if the dice are rigged.

I don't know how they would rule on the "dominant factor" test. It might be more skill based. But judges there may not agree.

I recommend talking to a gambling law attorney. Especially if this involves "alot" of money.

You should take a look at the luck vs. skill thread in tactics. While dice are present in a game of 40k, they factor minimally into determining the winner or loser of a game. In fact, you can play a game of 40k without either player rolling any dice at all; the winner and loser are determined by skill.

Thus, the relevant part of gaming law is that tests of skill between men are allowed. Even mitigating the importance of dice in a game of 40k is a skill.

In short, not worried about it.

So you are saying that if the dice are fixed, you still win? Because that means skill supercedes dice. Otherwise, it seems that chance could be the "dominant factor" (as defined by VA law, not your opinion- judges make the call).

But, honestly, I don't care. Just thought it was worth mentioning. Good luck with the game and the VA Gaming Commission(or whatever they call it there)!

Dashofpepper wrote:In that case, I still have your $100 IOU from the Socal Slaughter in Space last year. Want my mailing address or just my paypal? =D

I will play you for $100. Only this time I will not play a bad codex against your obsolete army in a scenario that I can't win.

I assure you, I've thought about every angle that I can trying to monetize 40k. People are just not confident enough in their abilities by and large to bet on it.

I played in a tournament in Florida where the winner got $1000. Also when I want some practice playing under pressure I post ahead of time that I will give $20 to anyone that can beat me at my FLGS. Very few people step up and except the challenge (and I have never lost a penny).

But if you are looking for someone else to try your luck against, I will be your huckleberry.

jmurph wrote: ... VA gambling law tracks alot of states and prohibits betting on "the result of any game, contest or any other event the outcome of which is uncertain or a matter of chance."

I believe you're citing where bookies and side bets are made on the game, *that* would be illegal.

And something, Dash & CheVito, you might want to encourage people *not* to do, at least publicly. Certainly, no one ought to be silly enough to wager over the 'Net.

For all anyone knows we're wagering two priceless cookies. =D

Blackmoor: The Nova Invitational in August is going to be for Cash; $1,000 to best General, $1,000 to Best overall. Or maybe just one? You should see if you can win a spot if you haven't already and come.

Arizona is a looooong way away, but I'd be happy to jump on Vassal to play you (for bragging rights, not money); 2D crow's eye only goes so far.

One thing to consider, given the pressure to be placed on the referee, is to give him a cut of the purse. A few hours of an expert's time, coupled with the high stakes make compensation appropriate.

All of these are very good reasons that VA would look down on "gambling" in re Warhammers. Rarely, do the State Troopers in VA care about minor details, like that a game of skill is played with dice. All they'll see are the dice and then you have opened up a world of pain and litigation.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:All of these are very good reasons that VA would look down on "gambling" in re Warhammers. Rarely, do the State Troopers in VA care about minor details, like that a game of skill is played with dice. All they'll see are the dice and then you have opened up a world of pain and litigation.

Like Monopoly? Yahtzee?

Really?

Dash: those priceless cookies would be the Girl Scout Tagalongs, right? The chocolate, peanut butter ones?

Oh, hell no, samoas are where it's at!