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So, as usual, excuse my noobishness but why doesn't anyone use the possessed marines? I found a 3 pack of chaos marines at the GW today so I'll try my hand at painting black.

I have to admit, the chaos marines are enticing......BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! Not that enticing yet, but close. XD I also found out their is basically a chaos space wolves legion, though there are almost no details on them

Portaljacker wrote:So, as usual, excuse my noobishness but why doesn't anyone use the possessed marines?

Because they suck horribly.

they are random, so you cannot guess what they will do for the game , they also occupy elite slot (Leaving with you with say less termies)

And they really do nothing that Khorne Berzerkers can't.

Those are reasons I can deal with. The battleforce is odd, having 8 khorne when a khorne box has 12. Does the normal khorne box come on 3 sprues? If so then it makes a bit more sense. Also, does the chaos rhino sit between the rhino and razorback in terms of functionality? Or is it just a spiky rhino?

Anyone? I'm highly considering getting it and starting chaos. Any suggestions on what I should add to the battleforce? Besides the second rhino of course. Which HQ should I go for to start?

The only other army with a battleforce I'm considering is the Tau because of the suits.

Also having Wolves and Chaos Marines may be a bit too similar.


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I'm not sure I'm just trying to feel out a bunch of ideas and figure out what to do. My wolves are almost built for my small 500pt force. I want to make a 500pt force for 2-3 armies to try them out and chose one to be my main.

Zerkers come on 3 sprues of 4 in the regular box and one less sprue in the battleforce.

Chaos Rhino is simply a Spiky Rhino.

Cerebrium wrote:Yeah, I would be all over the BA battleforce for my inevitable Flesh Tearers army if it just had more assault marines instead of tacreens.

And yet the terribad SM battleforce has Assault Marines....

Kharn is probably one of the best special characters in the book, if not the game (being completely immune to psychic powers means that he's one of the few to laugh in the face of JotWW and Doomy). Failing that, go with a Daemon Prince or a Sorceror (either in power armor for cheap points or Terminator armor for a little bit more survivability).

If you kitbash all of the Battle Force's parts together you can get 28 Khorne Berserkers, which is a good starting point for a Khorne force, not to mention Khorne berserkers are one of the better CSM troop choices (although Plague Marines are still better). If you do go with a Khorne force, Kharn and a land Raider would be the best addition, otherwise a box of plague marines, more Chaos Rhinos, a few Oblits (you can make these from a Chaos Terminator kit for much cheaper than the actual Oblit models) and a Lash prince (just a straight up daemon prince painted mostly pink).

The 13th Company of the Space Wolves were lost in the Eye of Terror, and, for a time, had their own army list that was branched off of the pamphlet Space Wolves Codex back in 3rd edition. Basically just kitbash Space Wolf Parts with Chaos Space Marine parts, avoiding the Chaos Star and any god or legion specific icons (fluff reason is that, due to the amount of time they've spent in the warp, their equipment had deteriorated and they had to scavenge parts off of their dead foes).

Chaos is great for converting and kitbashing, but apart from a cookie cutter list involving Plague Marines, Lash princes, oblits and other such popular units, there isnt much for actually gaming. If you want, try proxying your SW as CSM and test them out.

I would go Blood Angels or Grey Knights but then I'd just have 2 marine forces. Plus no battleforce for the knights. At least with chaos there's some significant differences.

I also seem to be going for armies with lower model counts which is why IG, Nids and Orks aren't as appealing to me.

GKs are probably the best right now. You can have a really low model count army by runing Knightwing or (especially) Draigowing. Alternatively just go for Loganwing so you have elements that you can use in both armies.

GKs though have some really awesome options with Inquisitor Cortez and the Monkeyspam lists.

Chaos is an excellent battleforce.

You can make a Chaos Rhino into sort-of a razorback-ish thing, though only for anti-troop (not antitank) with the Havoc launcher. And you still retain the full 10 man capacity and the top hatch to shoot out.

Possessed are not a good unit; a bit random and pricy, and non-scoring, which is a problem when your stuff is expensive, and you can get Troops who basically do the same job for fewer points (Berserkers). But the models are excellent, and can easily be used to fill out your Berserker and CSM squads with extra mutants. Plus the excellent winged back/backpack torso piece is extremely useful for winged Sorcerer conversions, and saves you the money of buying it online from a bits shop.

For an HQ you can't go wrong with a Daemon Prince. You're usually going to want at least one. If going on the save-money side, Sorcerers are also excellent, and easily converted as I mentioned above. They don't bring the HtH power that a DP does, but they also don't get shot to death as fast. Both are good. I usually run one of each, though most competitive CSM players I know tend to favor either two DPs or two Sorcerers. Occasionally mixing in the very cost effective Kharn. Or maybe Abaddon in higher point games.

For expansion beyond Troops & HQ you're going to need some long-range antitank to pop enemy transports and suppress enemy shooters killing you from a distance before you can get close and chop them into offerings for the gods. Obliterators, ML Havocs, or AC/Las Preds are key here. Most competitive CSM lists fill their heavy slots from those. Defilers aren't bad either, as long as you have a good amount of armor.

The Fast Attack section is overpriced and underperforming. A min-sized Raptor or Bike squad with Meltas is usable, but you're almost always better off sinking the points into more scoring Troops. In a Rhino they still move 12", and CSM or Plagues can still bring a pair of meltaguns.

Elites are better. Terminators can work well in a number of different loadouts. Chosen get you a squad full of five special weapons, with the ability to Infiltrate, or (better) Outflank. Or just drive straight at the enemy in a Rhino and blow up their darn land raiders without risking your Troops. Dreads are pretty decent for the points. A mite unpredictable, but you can get a plasmacannon for 105 or a missile launcher for 100 even, which is a nice deal and about the only 48" range antitank CSM can get for any kind of reasonable price outside HS.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:GKs are probably the best right now. You can have a really low model count army by runing Knightwing or (especially) Draigowing. Alternatively just go for Loganwing so you have elements that you can use in both armies.

GKs though have some really awesome options with Inquisitor Cortez and the Monkeyspam lists.

What does the -wing part refer to? I am tempted to just order some knights and make an army next month.

Mannahnin wrote:Chaos is an excellent battleforce.

You can make a Chaos Rhino into sort-of a razorback-ish thing, though only for anti-troop (not antitank) with the Havoc launcher. And you still retain the full 10 man capacity and the top hatch to shoot out.

Possessed are not a good unit; a bit random and pricy, and non-scoring, which is a problem when your stuff is expensive, and you can get Troops who basically do the same job for fewer points (Berserkers). But the models are excellent, and can easily be used to fill out your Berserker and CSM squads with extra mutants. Plus the excellent winged back/backpack torso piece is extremely useful for winged Sorcerer conversions, and saves you the money of buying it online from a bits shop.

For an HQ you can't go wrong with a Daemon Prince. You're usually going to want at least one. If going on the save-money side, Sorcerers are also excellent, and easily converted as I mentioned above. They don't bring the HtH power that a DP does, but they also don't get shot to death as fast. Both are good. I usually run one of each, though most competitive CSM players I know tend to favor either two DPs or two Sorcerers. Occasionally mixing in the very cost effective Kharn. Or maybe Abaddon in higher point games.

Which DP should I get, the metal 40k one or the plastic WHFB/40k box.

Mannahnin wrote:For expansion beyond Troops & HQ you're going to need some long-range antitank to pop enemy transports and suppress enemy shooters killing you from a distance before you can get close and chop them into offerings for the gods. Obliterators, ML Havocs, or AC/Las Preds are key here. Most competitive CSM lists fill their heavy slots from those. Defilers aren't bad either, as long as you have a good amount of armor.

Will I have the same issue on getting MLs for the Havocs that I have with Long Fangs where I either have to buy tons of boxes or buy the ML at like $9 a piece? Or do you just use the ones in the box (how many?) and put other things on the other guys?

Mannahnin wrote:Elites are better. Terminators can work well in a number of different loadouts. Chosen get you a squad full of five special weapons, with the ability to Infiltrate, or (better) Outflank. Or just drive straight at the enemy in a Rhino and blow up their darn land raiders without risking your Troops. Dreads are pretty decent for the points. A mite unpredictable, but you can get a plasmacannon for 105 or a missile launcher for 100 even, which is a nice deal and about the only 48" range antitank CSM can get for any kind of reasonable price outside HS.

So how do you represent chosen anyway? They basically sound like super SW scouts.

Chosen are basically Vanguard Veterans for CSM, but in the elite slot and no jump packs.

As for ML Havocs, they do sell these individually

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440212a&prodId=prod1090570

However given the price, it might be cheaper to get plastic SM ML bits and put them on plastic CSM bodies.

As for DP, The Plastic one is best if you dont like conversions, since it comes with wings in the set. I dislike that model so I have 3 Metal Princes, but they lack the wings (since DPs mostly have psychic powers, there's really nothing there to make WYSIWYG other than the wings).

As for the "-wing" suffix, I just add it to denote a Terminator-based army (Deathwing was the original All-terminator army, then Loganwing came when he made Wolf Guard Terminators troops. I bet we will see more GK-based "-wing" armies crop up now that GKTs are permanently troops).

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:not to mention Khorne berserkers are one of the better CSM troop choices (although Plague Marines are still better).

Very debatable. Plague marines and Berzerkers fill very different roles and are very hard to compare.

Personally I'm a tad bit bias towards PMs (even though my rank would say otherwise) because I prefer survivability over killing power. PMs and Berserkers are pretty much the opposite (one kills like there's no tomorrow but dies like normal marines, the other survives through almost anything, but have pretty much the same combat effectiveness as normal marines). However they're still better as core troops than Thousand Sons or Noise Marines, who dont do spam that well (they're better in moderation rather than spam).

EDIT: I think I'm actually gonna change my rank =x. Praise papa nurgle!

Mechaemperor- Tou want the word "biased". A person has a bias, or is biased. [/nitpick]

Portaljacker wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:GKs are probably the best right now. You can have a really low model count army by runing Knightwing or (especially) Draigowing. Alternatively just go for Loganwing so you have elements that you can use in both armies.

What does the -wing part refer to? I am tempted to just order some knights and make an army next month.

As he said, it's a nicknaming convention based off of Deathwing, which is the all-terminator branch of the Dark Angels, and was the first all-terminator army. It has become convention to nickname any all-terminator (or sometimes mostly terminator) army "blah-wing", where "blah"= a descriptive word to indicate what army you're actually talking about. It actually goes back to 3rd edition, when it was possible to make a Chaos army which was almost exclusively terminators (except for two token units of lesser daemons, which could be your compulsory Troops then). Lustwing was the Slaaneshi variant (Dakka member Janthkin ran this), Dustwing was Tzeentch, Plaguewing was Nurgle, and Bloodwing Khorne.

Since Logan Grimnar is the model SW have to take to make Wolfguard (which all their terminators are) Troops, Loganwing is the nickname there.

Portaljacker wrote:Which DP should I get, the metal 40k one or the plastic WHFB/40k box.

Definitely the plastic, now that it's available. It's cheaper, easier to build, comes with more options, and actually comes with the darn wings! Which you'd be silly not to put on him.

Portaljacker wrote:Will I have the same issue on getting MLs for the Havocs that I have with Long Fangs where I either have to buy tons of boxes or buy the ML at like $9 a piece? Or do you just use the ones in the box (how many?) and put other things on the other guys?

You have to buy them separately, sadly. I cannot recall if the current CSM box comes with a ML; it might just include the heavy bolter, which I'd never take. You may be better off with Predators, Obliterators, or Defilers. Or a mix.

Portaljacker wrote:So how do you represent chosen anyway? They basically sound like super SW scouts.

No, they're really a different role. They're not similar to Vanguard, either. They're 18pts a model (5pts more than Scouts, but much cheaper than Vanguard), and they can Infiltrate/Outflank, which is really their only similarity to Scouts.

SM Scouts are Troops, so they score and can hold objectives. They only have 4+ armor (so die in the open to most guns) but can get camo cloaks for a 3+ cover save (or 2+ Going to Ground), and be really tough that way. Lots of players use them to sit on an objective, in cover, and be near-invulnerable except against assault or cover-save-denying weapons.

Chosen don't do that. And they don't score. What they DO is bring up to 5 special weapons. You can alternately give them close combat upgrades, but that's usually a waste. They're only 1A base, they don't have increased WS or Initiative or anything else to make them better in combat. But five meltaguns does an awesome job killing a tank. Or five plasma guns puts a crapload of AP2 wounds on any high-armored unit, like terminators, SM, or a monstrous creature.

You represent them with regular CSM with more special weapons, usually. Alternately, you can buy the Dark Angels chapter upgrade frame, or veteran box, and make them all special robed guys. That's pretty cool and distinctive. It does cost more, though.

SW Scouts are elite, troops and 15pts per model. They only get up to 3 special weapons.


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I'm now stuck in an in between of wanting Chaos Marines or Grey Knights. For the Emprah or Blood for the Blood God? I dunno.

I chose the Vanguard analogy because the new edition of SM book got ride of the old Vets. Although I forgot for a moment there that Portaljacker plays SW, a better analogy would be Chosen is similar to Wolf Guard in PA. Their infiltrate ability is what makes them insane though. Outflank a 5 man squad with 3 Meltas and watch as your opponent's tanks are blown to bits.

The CSM Havoc boxset does come with a ML, as well as an Autocannon, Lascannon, and a plastic Heavy Bolter. It's basically half of the CSM boxset + metal Heavy weapon bits.

What are some differences betwen SW, CSM and GK? I feel like SW and CSM would be the most similar, but maybe I'm wrong?

SW and CSM are similar on a trooper-by-trooper basis. CSM, though, lacks alot of vehicles and options (most notably the Dreadclaw Drop pod, the Chaos equivallent of the SM drop pod). CSM are also very infantry-centric, needing you to rely on one of the cult troopers and Chosen if you really want to be competitive (normal CSM are cheap even with marks compared to their cult trooper variant, but nonetheless cult troopers are superior for the points you pay). SW are more balanced overall and have many more different builds than CSM.

As for GK, they're completely different from both armies as GK focuses on psychic powers, having almost every single unit with some sort of psychic ability. They're also very Elite, as (aside from Inq units) even their basic troopers cost a bit more than their comparable SW or CSM counterpart, and currently they are the only army that has Terminators as Basic Troops, with no character needed to make them troops. GKs are also geared towards killing Daemons, as you will see the rules almost pounding the Daemons into the ground due to the abilities GKs get when they do face Daemons.

I know the thread has been derailed but in terms of play style how are SW and GK different? I think I may just buy 2 termie boxes, a normal box for the teleporters or heavy attack guys plus an hq to try the GW out.

Lol Grey Wolves....

GKs are again more focused on the Elite aspect and more exotic weaponry. Plus they have one of the largest Psychic Power lists I've seen, given that they have a dedicated list, as well as almost one Power per GK unit entry. SW, even with JotWW, are still rather conventional in their attack methods, whereas, from what I've seen, GK will have to rely on Psychic powers to win the day, unless they're playing a Coteaz Monkeyspam list.

lol, whoops. I notticed on the psychic power thing when reading the codex at GW. There was basically a JotWW on steroids that uses a template instead of a line. It takes the whole unit not just models. It's kinda nuts.