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Tech Brother Torgo wrote:The problem here is you're trying to have it all. High mobility, long range firepower, cheap price tag, oh - and I want it to be invincible for the first turn. Not going to happen, nor should it ever happen. There needs to be an element of risk when using any unit

The thing is though, I can trade the Vendetta for other units that are lower risk than the Vendetta is.

daedalus wrote:That gives you a secondary manticore for long range anti-tank/horde control, special weapons for dealing with MEQ, and all in all feels very well rounded. You could even go so far as to, with the remaining points, toss two scout sentinels for outflanking multiLAZORS! and have 5 points left for whatever upgrade sounds good.

Yes, the dual Manticore option is something I've given serious consideration to. I like the Manticore alot, so taking 2 seems to be pretty solid.

You could always use modeling to your advantage and make it so you in fact can fit the entire vendetta on.

And I remain unconvinced that parts of a model hanging over the edge count as off table... can anyone link said FAQ?

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1620222a_40k_Rulebook_version_1_2.pdf

The specific section reads;

Q: What happens when a unit arrives from reserves but is
unable to completely move onto the board? (p94)
A: The unit is destroyed and removed from play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One of my housemates just proposed an amusing solution.

Shift the stand to the forward edge of the base, and cut the top of the stand (Where it slots into the Valk) at approximately a 45 degree angle, so when it's mounted the Valk is flying in a nose-down attitude, rather like a helicopter might. Problem solved, it can now move 6" onto the table!

That's dirty, but it's a fast skimmer, so it can hover in one place... I would imagine that would give it some of the capabilities of a helicopter.

LOL Modeling to you're advantage might lose you some friends .

Either way the best thing to do is to run more Vendettas and/or run more threats. Vendettas are prolly the threats the enemies can see so they get shot first, either way this is to your advantage as your other Units can wreck havoc as the enemy will have to dedicate a shooting phase just to deal with the Vendettas.

not to mention not being able to target anything not almost directly below you.

Remodeling it to allow it to do something the stock model can't is not going to fly with most opponents or TOs.

As noted, the Vendetta is still excellent. The problem is that it was incredibly nasty before, and now it's been toned down to very nasty. Naturally the OP is feeling a loss.

Furycat, I agree with the earlier sentiments that the problem is one of usage and context, not that the unit is bad. Since in your list there are no other good T1 targets, the list handicaps the single Vendetta in that sense. If you want to keep using the same list, I'd recommend using the Vendetta the same way you did before- if going second, Outflank it. You'll only get a single TL las shot the turn you come on the board, but you will also get 12" of movement instead of merely 6", which will be to your advantage in positioning to best deploy the vets on the following turn to hit an optimal target.

Yeah, so I should probably clarify I wasn't serious about alterning the model to allow it to move on 6" and still fire everything. Tounge in cheek moment.

I agree, I could still use it to outflank and move on 12" and deliver it's nasty melta vet cargo, but then why use a Vendetta for that? The Valk does the same job, but costs 30 points less. As it stands, I think I'll probably drop the use of either from the 1500 list. It used to be viable, because it was possible to ensure 1 turn of full-force shooting. As it isn't now, and I cant realistically field 2 or more of them, I think it's likely I'lll switch to using the double Manticore build, or maybe the Marbo build vs one of my regular BA/Nid opponents, simply because it's funny the amount of rage he has for Marbo. (It's all in good spirits though!).

I think alot of people who have been generous enough to contribute to this thread are correct, fielding multiple Vendettas still gives the opponent something serious to worry about, and it's still a significant amount of firepower, but that's something that will have to wait until a much later date, and probably a larger points value.

I think you can realistically field two of them. You're just a bit soured on them at the moment and don't want to buy a second model at the moment, which I can understand.

Did you hard-glue the weapons? Would you be easily able to make it a Valkrie and try using it that way?

Furycat wrote:Yeah, so I should probably clarify I wasn't serious about alterning the model to allow it to move on 6" and still fire everything. Tounge in cheek moment.

I agree, I could still use it to outflank and move on 12" and deliver it's nasty melta vet cargo, but then why use a Vendetta for that? The Valk does the same job, but costs 30 points less. As it stands, I think I'll probably drop the use of either from the 1500 list. It used to be viable, because it was possible to ensure 1 turn of full-force shooting. As it isn't now, and I cant realistically field 2 or more of them, I think it's likely I'lll switch to using the double Manticore build, or maybe the Marbo build vs one of my regular BA/Nid opponents, simply because it's funny the amount of rage he has for Marbo. (It's all in good spirits though!).

I think alot of people who have been generous enough to contribute to this thread are correct, fielding multiple Vendettas still gives the opponent something serious to worry about, and it's still a significant amount of firepower, but that's something that will have to wait until a much later date, and probably a larger points value.

honestly the valk does it for the exact same price; You want Rocket pods. You can then move 12" and Fire Everything, and do so every turn. 2 Large Blasts/turn is nice.

I currently own a single Valkyrie, which I glued rocket pods onto, since I put it together before I became one with the wonder of magnets. I've just been proxying it as a Vendetta in virtually every game since (After all, the difference between the two is pretty marginal). As for the Valk with the rocket pods, I latched onto it intially for exactly the reasons stipulated... large blast defensive weapons? Sounds great! However, I've since come to realise that really... it fills a niche not actually required in a mech guard list. It kills light infantry. Big deal, I have plenty of things in my army that do that... better than the Valk ever will. If I was fielding a Valk now, based on what I've learned since the new guard codex released, I would likely run it as a stock 100 point version. Yeah, the missiles are crap, but who cares? It's job is to put a squad where I want it. Any shooting it does is a secondary consideration, and pretty much irrelevant in the face of the shooting the rest of my army brings.

I could at some point in future buy a second, and run dual Vendettas... but even then I'm somewhat put off. I'm basically buying two, because I KNOW one will get shot out of the sky, likely before ever getting to do anything. That's not just 130 points that gets to do nothing (Plus anything it's carrying), it's 45 god damned pounds that sits on the table for a single turn then gets taken off. Thanks, but no thanks GW. I'll stick with Chimeras. They're cheaper in both points and pounds, and I can actually reliably hide the little buggers.

Furycat wrote:I currently own a single Valkyrie, which I glued rocket pods onto, since I put it together before I became one with the wonder of magnets. I've just been proxying it as a Vendetta in virtually every game since (After all, the difference between the two is pretty marginal). As for the Valk with the rocket pods, I latched onto it intially for exactly the reasons stipulated... large blast defensive weapons? Sounds great! However, I've since come to realise that really... it fills a niche not actually required in a mech guard list. It kills light infantry. Big deal, I have plenty of things in my army that do that... better than the Valk ever will. If I was fielding a Valk now, based on what I've learned since the new guard codex released, I would likely run it as a stock 100 point version. Yeah, the missiles are crap, but who cares? It's job is to put a squad where I want it. Any shooting it does is a secondary consideration, and pretty much irrelevant in the face of the shooting the rest of my army brings.

I could at some point in future buy a second, and run dual Vendettas... but even then I'm somewhat put off. I'm basically buying two, because I KNOW one will get shot out of the sky, likely before ever getting to do anything. That's not just 130 points that gets to do nothing (Plus anything it's carrying), it's 45 god damned pounds that sits on the table for a single turn then gets taken off. Thanks, but no thanks GW. I'll stick with Chimeras. They're cheaper in both points and pounds, and I can actually reliably hide the little buggers.

That gives you the slot for the Dog fast attack tanks..I'm a bit of a fan of the devil dog myself.....

As well as sentinels and rough riders...I like Rough Riders a LOT personally.....as a reserve it can react to the enemy thrusts and thus will not get shot early on in the game...

Q: What happens when a unit arrives from reserves but is
unable to completely move onto the board? (p94)
A: The unit is destroyed and removed from play.

Actually, thinking about it If the units base is fully on the table, it is fully on the table, the unit is still on the table, also you cannot assault the valk/vendettas tail, only its base.

Remodeling it to allow it to do something the stock model can't is not going to fly with most opponents or TOs.

Normally I would agree but as long as you don't change the base in any way and just attach the model to the stick in a more helicopter style steep angle you're hardly doing any remodeling at all. This isn't a case of a crouching Wraithlord. This is a case of GW not realising some models are way too big for this game and the opponents of IG players trying to hold on for the small advantage they think they got via FAQ. Just angle the Vendetta so it can fit on the table when it moves 6".

Therion wrote:

Remodeling it to allow it to do something the stock model can't is not going to fly with most opponents or TOs.

Normally I would agree but as long as you don't change the base in any way and just attach the model to the stick in a more helicopter style steep angle you're hardly doing any remodeling at all. This isn't a case of a crouching Wraithlord. This is a case of GW not realising some models are way too big for this game and the opponents of IG players trying to hold on for the small advantage they think they got via FAQ. Just angle the Vendetta so it can fit on the table when it moves 6".

You are changing the model to gain favorable in game advantages. That is the definition of modeling to advantage which is explicitly against the rules.

What a nonsense, it might be the rules but plain stupid.

I play against guard and would never stoop so low as to try and tell my opponent he couldnt move 6" onto the board because the tail of his model was hanging off.

Plain rubbish that cannot be explained away in any reasonable fashion.

I want to beat my opponenet without relying on such nonsense.

Therion wrote:

Remodeling it to allow it to do something the stock model can't is not going to fly with most opponents or TOs.

Normally I would agree but as long as you don't change the base in any way and just attach the model to the stick in a more helicopter style steep angle you're hardly doing any remodeling at all. This isn't a case of a crouching Wraithlord. This is a case of GW not realising some models are way too big for this game and the opponents of IG players trying to hold on for the small advantage they think they got via FAQ. Just angle the Vendetta so it can fit on the table when it moves 6".

As has been said, this is IG players unable to cope with the FAQ nerfing them, so it's obviously those "other beardy guys" who are wrong...

You are changing the model to gain favorable in game advantages. That is the definition of modeling to advantage which is explicitly against the rules.

Incorrect. The model is unchanged. It's being attached to the base in a slightly different angle than you were expecting. The base is still the same and the model is still the same and the stick is in the same hole as before. The rules don't cover the allowed angle variation of Valkyries. There are no set parameters for this. People do this all the time too with all of their models.

As has been said, this is IG players unable to cope with the FAQ nerfing them

You're wrong as they're coping just fine. It's you who is unable to cope with the fact that the IG players are seeing what the problem is and are adapting.

Therion wrote:

You are changing the model to gain favorable in game advantages. That is the definition of modeling to advantage which is explicitly against the rules.

Incorrect. The model is unchanged. It's being attached to the base in a slightly different angle than you were expecting. The base is still the same and the model is still the same and the stick is in the same hole as before. The rules don't cover the allowed angle variation of Valkyries. There are no set parameters for this. People do this all the time too with all of their models.

That is ridiculous. The flying stand which you have to change is part of the model. I can't put my missile speeder and a three foot tall stand and claim that is has LOS to everything. And if the "people doing it all the time" are gaining in game advantages from it they are cheating.

The flying stand which you have to change is part of the model.

There are a few things you should be aware of:

i) Page 3 of the rulebook.
ii) Models and their bases are two very different things.
iii) What you suggested is cheating because you're not using the base the model was supplied with.

This game allows for quite a lot of modeling to your own advantage and to your own disadvantage as well. Both are evident in pretty much every finished army.

Modifications purely for aesthetic purposes are fine and allowed all the time. A modification to gain a rules advantage is easily spotted and will be vetoed by an aware opponent. The difference between extending a flying stand to mount the skimmer two feet high, or angling the stand/model to achieve an extreme angle so the model is less than 6" long measured horizontally from above, is merely a difference of degree, not of kind. Both are subject to opponent's permission as variant basing schemes, and will be forbidden by any TO who's awake.

Hanging the tail or wings off the table/out of the area of play, whether to get more guns firing on the turn of entry, or simply to make it harder for enemy units to reach the Valk/Vend/SR with their guns or assault, has always been illegal. The FAQ just made it more explicit and threw in the hardcore consequence for failing to enter fully.

You are cutting up or altering the base for a game effect. Can I cut up a base so it's 2 inches long instead of 1inch around? That way I get an exta inch when I exit vehicles?

What you are suggesting is cheating and terrible sportsmanship. Just accept that vendettas only get 1 lascannon off of reserve. They are awesome enough anyway without screwing people.

Pretty much with Therion 100% on this.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:You are cutting up or altering the base for a game effect. Can I cut up a base so it's 2 inches long instead of 1inch around? That way I get an exta inch when I exit vehicles?

What you are suggesting is cheating and terrible sportsmanship. Just accept that vendettas only get 1 lascannon off of reserve. They are awesome enough anyway without screwing people.

Now you're trying to make it a moral issue? Something is already good so I shouldn't be allowed to build a model and play by the rules? If anyone of you (you too Mannahnin) could point it out how exactly is a small angle variation of the Valkyrie in any way illegal according to the rulebook we could stop debating this nonsense and put it to rest. It is starting to seem obvious that you can't since a few of you haven't even opened the rulebook before you started arguing about Land Speeders with three feet tall bases and whatnot.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:You are cutting up or altering the base for a game effect. Can I cut up a base so it's 2 inches long instead of 1inch around? That way I get an exta inch when I exit vehicles?

Not even close to the same thing.

How is it not? I'm cutting up the model (or the base) so it can do something it otherwise wouldn't have been able to do?

How is it not?

Because the Valkyrie (the model) is unchanged and the base is unchanged but the two have been glued together in an angle instead of horizontally. The fact that someone even tries to argue that this could be against the rules is ludicrous.

If you change the base like that, you are changing the model. It's footprint will change for a variety of effects: assault, blast weapons, range.

That amounts to modeling for advantage which is against the rules.

Your position is indefensible, Therion. You are going to have to make a physical modification (cutting the base, adding green stuff or other putty, or something) to get this to work. Even if you somehow manage to get it to work with a wad of platic-melting epoxy, it's still functionally the same thing as modifying the base or model, and is clearly Modeling For Advantage; changing the stock model to gain an advantage in game.

And any competent opponent or TO who isn't specifically trying to enable you to get around the rules is going to call BS.

You won't be able to glue it at any sort of angle that matters without cutting the stand. Cutting it = modeling to advantage.

I would kick you out of my tournament if you did that. You know that the stock model can't do something, so you are changing the stock model so it can. There's nothing else to be said.