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So, a situation which came to my attention in a recent game of 40k has caused me to do some thinking on the subject of the Valkyrie and the Vendetta. The situation involves the FAQ ruling regarding vehicles that cannot move their entire model onto the table when entering from reserves, being destroyed. Leaving aside the fact that this means it's impossible to bring certain vehicles on from reserves, (Baneblades, lol), I wanted to examine how this affects the Valk and Vendetta.

Now, this may not be how everyone played it and I can certainally understand, but my local group allways treated the base as the important part for deciding where it actually was. Which made a 6" move onto the table from outflanking or reserves acceptable. The fact that the tail overhung the edge of the table was not really considered an issue, since the important part... the base, was fully on the table. This made the Vendetta my favored choice for shifting a unit of melta vets into position. It could slip onto the table, get a juicy side or rear armour shot on a hostile vehicle with it's three TL lascannons, and then either drop the melta vets there, or attempt to move them into position next turn. The important part was, it got a turn of shooting off.

Now of course, you cant do this. The Valk/Vend model is too large to move on 6", forcing it to move 12" at least. This reduces it to firing a single TL lascannon, which while nice, isn't that likely to do much. It has in essence become just a transport, since most enemies dont tend to let it live for long once it's on the table. The cheaper Valk is a much better choice for this particular role now. (Or using other means to outflank Chimeras, such as Creed, Al'Rahem, or even dare I say it, Storm Troopers!). You dont really want to start the Vendetta on the table, since it's often a very high priority target for the opposition. It's heavily armed, only moderately armoured, and nigh impossible to hide. The impact it can have, has been greatly lessened and other, more survivable heavy weapons platforms are now looking more attractive. One example would be three, lascannon armed scout sentinels. They're 20 points more than the Vendetta, but can still outflank, and are considerably more survivable. Less mobile to be sure, but the mobility aspect is less important from the perspective of directing lascannon fire at targets, given the long reach of the lascannon.

Now, it's possible I'm looking at this a touch too dismally, but I tend to try and build my list to be as efficient, and effective as possible. And really the Vendetta is looking less attractive, now that I know I cannot get it a free turn of shooting before it gets blown out of the sky. I'm basically hoping for first turn, and then praying my opponent doesn't sieze. I should be clear, I'm not looking for 'Well it COULD...' or 'In this one game I...' or even 'But it's cool so...'. I'm purely concerned with sustainable effectiveness.

Vendettas still rock the house. They were ridiculous before, this tames them down a little bit, but still a wrecking house of awesome.

And Valks it really shouldn't matter, weren't you moving them on 12 from an outflank anyway?

Truth be told, I wasn't using Valkyries at all before. I used the Vendetta exclusively.

I'm curious as to your statement that Vendettas still rock though, could you provide some information on why? As things stand right now, any Vendetta I put down will be summarily blown out of the sky at the earliest possible opportunity by my opponent. And lets face it, it's not hard to do. They're only AV12, and impossible to hide. Given that the only way I get to actually fire those lovely TL lascannons is if I win first turn... only a 50/50 chance, I cant see why they would be a better choice than spending those points elsewhere.

GW giveth and taketh away. Now that scout move grants the 4+ cover save for moving fast -- its not as neccesary to reserve em.

And frankly the base is not the most important part of the model, dunno why you think that. Still have to fire from the weapons on the wings (something people hung over the edge alot) and still have to target the hull (in which the tail is arguably part of). How did you resolve blasts when half your model could hang over the edge? Or getting to shoot from a weapon mount that wasn't even on the table (potentially getting shots at vehicles you wouldn't normally be able to get)?

Also, am I the only one that sees the disadvantages of the model's size and positioning as one of the factors for the low cost?

Moving the Vendetta flat-out is pretty much negating the entire point of taking it in the first place, the three TL lascannons. If it has to move flat out just to stay alive, it's not shooting, and if it's not shooting, why did I take it? Plus, a 4+ save still isn't neccesarily going to save it from getting blown out of the sky. I could of course, use it as a transport and blitz it forwards 24" from the word go... but the Valk does that for 30 points less.

As to your question about the base, I honestly couldn't say why. It's just how my local group allways played it. I think part of it was that we tend more towards common sense when we run into hazy rules questions. We thought 'Surely just because it's a big model, it shouldn't be impared from something as basic as coming onto the table'. Of course, GW's FAQ's often dont follow common sense, and sadly while we err towards common sense on rules that are unclear, we do follow clear FAQ rulings, however bizzare they appear to be.

winterman wrote:GW giveth and taketh away. Now that scout move grants the 4+ cover save for moving fast -- its not as neccesary to reserve em.

What winterman was getting at in his point is the fact that before the game begins you get to scout move the vendetta. So you always start a game with the 4+ cover save for the vendetta if you are going second. This greatly reduces the need to reserve the vendetta to avoid it getting shot down before it does anything.

Warmaster wrote:
What winterman was getting at in his point is the fact that before the game begins you get to scout move the vendetta. So you always start a game with the 4+ cover save for the vendetta if you are going second. This greatly reduces the need to reserve the vendetta to avoid it getting shot down before it does anything.

Exactly. At a minimum, if you start on the board, you have a good chance of getting to shoot all three Lascannons on Turn 1 at the very least due to the Scout move. It might be more difficult to get side shots now, but you can almost guarantee any guaranteed squad can get somewhere useful.

Yes, I got that, sorry if I wasn't clear in my reply. My point was that a 4+ save does not neccesarily keep it alive. I wasn't trying to suggest that it's IMPOSSIBLE to get a turn of shooting with the Vendetta now, by no means is that the case. It's entirely possible for it to sit perfectly still through a turn of enemy shooting, and come off none the worse. Or it could turbo-scout and make all of it's 4+ saves, or my enemy might not even shoot at it at all. But it's not really a certain thing.

I tend to break my forces down into 3 types.

1) I can protect them from getting killed on turn 1, either by reserving them, or plain hiding them.
2) I can reasonably expect them to survive turn 1 shooting in good shape. Russes fall into this one as an example, since AV14 is remarkably hard to defeat at long range.
3) I dont particularly care if they survive turn 1 or not. Usually because they're cheap, redundant, or preferrably both.

The Vendetta doesn't fall into any of those. At 130 points, while not devastatingly expensive, it's not exactly cheap either. It's impossible to protect for certain on turn 1, I cant hide it, and I cant reserve it. And at AV12 I cant reasonably expect it to survive a turn of shooting.

As a note on the turbo-boost thing, remember all it takes is me to fail a save on just 1 glance or pen. Any roll except weapon destroyed, and it cant contribute next turn. And even weapon destroyed is reducing it's effective firepower by 1/3, before it ever gets to do anything.

If they are pumping AT shots into vendettas that have a 1+ cover then they AREN'T shooting at manticores, medusas, hydras, melta vets, plasma CCS, and any other amount of nastiness guard can bring. And if all of those things aren't in cover their shots go half as far against the vendettas.

You can still reserve them if you want, but the scout move is usually plenty. And if you go first then it isn't a factor at all.

130 pts for 3 lascannons that hit 75% of the time, on an AV 12 fast skimmer, and can transport of 50pt sws to score, it's just utterly brutal.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:If they are pumping AT shots into vendettas that have a 1+ cover

Vendettas can get a 1+ cover save? Well, that changes everything!

Seriously tho, I can see your point and I agree, that the package is very attractive. I just tend to be very risk-averse. I will possibly still use Valks to transport my melta vets, although I'm starting to lean more in the direction of outflanking Chimeras by various means. I may toss the Vendetta on the table again, but given the levels of animosity my gaming group tends to display towards it, I dont rate it's survival chances, and 130 points is a fair chunk. (We typically play at 1500).

It also depends on what else you are running. If you do all AV12 vehicles then all the stuff they want to shoot at the vendettas they need for all your other nastiness. If you have russes, sentinels, or infantry the decision of what guns to shoot where is a lot easier.

I use 2 in 1-2k pts, hardly ever reserve them, and I usually have at least one still alive at the end of the game.

That much fire power for 130, it can't be super survivable. But if you play it right or you have a list that gels with it they are too good not to take.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:That much fire power for 130, it can't be super survivable. But if you play it right or you have a list that gels with it they are too good not to take.

That's exactly what makes the enemy shoot them out of the sky first, even if I do have loads of other AV12. Manticores are almost allways hidden, and Chimeras and hellhounds aren't as big a threat on turn 1. The giant gunship you cant hide is the priority target. (Yes, I'm aware there's other AV12 hulls in the guard codex, but frankly I dont rate most of them for various reasons that are a whole other topic).

Edit: I realise I'm sounding a touch combative about this, so I apologise for that. Mostly I'm just frustrated because I'm not sure how to allow the Vendetta to perform it's job (Shooting things). Every game I field it, it pretty much gets only a single turn of shooting when it comes on from outflank, unless I'm allready winning heavily by that point. It doens't allways die, but it does spend the rest of the game shaken and turbo-boosting for it's life, or else falling out of the sky in flames. Given how awesome it is when it DOES get to shoot, it frustrates me that I cant be sure to get it shooting.

Why not reserve it, blow up as much enemy stuff that can hurt it as possible, and then turbo-boost it in when it arrives? The enemy will have much-reduced fire to put on it, you will get the cover save, and the next turn you can get your 3-las volley off on the side or rear.

Where is it in relationship to the rest of the army? Do you move it forward because it is carrying troops? Do you hang back and hug tables edges? What armies are your friends playing?

And Jimole is right, if the vendetta is going to be that instrumental to your plans, take out the things that can take out the vendettas. You should have more tools to do that than anyone except another guard player.

If you are this frustrated by it I think this is more likely a playstyle issue with them as opposed to a true survivability issue.

130 pts AV12 with 4+ save kept at the "base-line" away from shorter range anti-tank is still not that easy to take down. Even if they do there are other targets they cant shoot at. Chimeras may not be a big threat turn 1 but they will turn 2. Also, long-range anti-tank is used to remove vehicles from range. If the close range anti-tank (melta vets in chimeras) gets a free turn to move forward when the enemy focuses on the vendettas they have kind of fulfilled their role in another way.

I don't see the problem with hiding vendettas. Our usual gaming table has some rock needles looking like this:

http://www.gerdsreisen.de/USA/Arizona/ir12/slides/ir12_18.jpg

About 1-2" diameter, 8-12" tall. It is possible to completly hide an entire vendetta behind one of those from at least one unit, and its quite easy to get your plane obscured.

On a side note, I don't own any of the two modles(I just find myself shooting them a lot), but isn't it possible to get it onto the board with a 6" move by turnining it 45°? I remember reading something like that, but the source ceased to exist.

Jidmah wrote:On a side note, I don't own any of the two modles(I just find myself shooting them a lot), but isn't it possible to get it onto the board with a 6" move by turnining it 45°? I remember reading something like that, but the source ceased to exist.

No, just getting it's center point far enough to do that turn and keep the wings on is more than 6". The thing is huge.

I guess the needs to move 12+ on turn arriving makes it a bit fairer, and gives a good reason to take a few of them, you can take 1 down, but not get them all.

The vendetta is a good unit, but for me its not too overpowered. Mine has actually been "meh" sometimes, as we play with a lot of cover here. The passengers it carries (usually an SWS with 2 flamers and a demo charge) have proven to be more of the "savior" than the vendetta itself, as I play a hybrid list which has a lot of long range anti tank weapons (infantry sutocannons plus the heavy support plus the vendetta)

In mechvet lists, I see the value of the vendetta as a gunship, as besides the artillery/tanks the vendettas are your source of long range antitank fire.

We have some three story ruins that I can occasionally eek out a cover save from, but other than that, I agree they're not survivable, but I don't think that's a huge problem. They're slightly more than half the cost of a land raider and an insane amount of firepower for it. I take two and generally end up losing one first round. I try to play the range game round one and stay out of the range of enemy missile launchers/lascannons as much possible, but it doesn't always help. That's just how it goes, and sometimes if you're lucky, the opponent will overstretch himself or waste finite resources getting to them. But they don't blow up because they're too big/weak/tall/not hanging over the edge. The reason is because they're fething SCARY.

How many are you taking? Are you squadroning them? What normally blows them up when you play?

The valk and the vendetta are still very well priced for what they are and what they can do. I would seriously kill for them.

GW just had to make them seriously overpowered to drum up sales for those nice $60 dollar models. Now that they have reached their sales targets they are toning them down a bit.

Okay, so normally we play 1500 points. My list varies a little but generally tends to contain;

CCS, quad plasma, Chimera

2 x Melta Vets (1 in chimera, other to ride in Vendetta)

1 x Plasma vets (Chimera)

Manticore

Leman Russ Executioner + plasma sponsons

2 x Hellhound + hull multi-melta

Vendetta

That's the general outline of the list, and it's worked well so far. As stated, the Vendetta would usually outflank, get a good solid round of shooting, drop off the melta vets, and then die horribly or get pinged endlessly for the rest of the game, unless I was allready winning heavily at that point.

My usual opponents include;

Tau - god damned railguns!
Battle Sisters - Exorcists usually took the Vendetta out of the air in short order (He typically runs 2)
Space Wolves - Long Fangs are the usual culprit here
Blood Angels - Mostly his Stormravens, but BA aren't so bad.
Tyranids - 2 players. 1 generally not an issue, the other a little more so. Impaler cannons and Tyrannofex can be an issue.
Eldar - Depends on what he's running, he varies it alot. Bright lances, shining spears can both be irritating.

Taking 2 isn't really much on the cards. For one thing, at 1500 the list is a bit on the tight side, and for another I only own 1, and it's not the easiest thing in the world to proxy. If I just want fast transport, that's not such an issue. Valkyries are 30 points cheaper, and can just turbo boost/move 12" on from outflank and it's not an issue, since I couldn't care less about their firepower, only their transported unit.

Well a Tau and Wolves army should be able to take down one AV12 vehicle. If you have trouble with the rest I say adjust you playing. I suggesst running two or none. Dupliciation and rendundancy are your friends.

Ah, that does put you in a rather tough spot. Two Vendettas can be resilient, because you can force them to go after one or the other, but one just kind of paints a bit of a target on itself, especially in that list. Chimeras are slow, LRE is fairly slow, and the Hellhounds could well still take a full turn to get to you before they start putting on the REAL hurt, depending on deployment. You're also in a bind because what would have been my first recommendation, taking a lascannon HWS, doesn't really apply without a platoon.

Not really sure what to recommend in your particular situation. I think you're paying too many points for the LRE in a 1500 point list, but that may just be me.

I would like to add that your vets would probably be better suited in another Chimera. That way the AV12 saturation would help distract them from your Vendetta. As it stands now, not only would I get to knock out a Vendetta, but I would also stop a 10 man squad by doing so. You don't need to give additional incentive to target it.

What else do you have that you could add to the list?

Actually, I'd have said the worst out of the lot that I face are the Battle Sisters. Those exorcists make long fangs look a little limp. D6 S8 AP1 shots each, per turn? Ow.

I think my likely approach is going to be dropping the Vendetta tbh. I'd have to lose something elsewhere in the list to cram a second one in, and tbh at £45 each, I'm unlikely to be buying another one any time soon. The question is what to replace it with. The vets it was carrying will still need a ride, so at least 55 points of it's cost will go towards another Chimera. I could probably add Marbo, since he's allways entertaining, and then spread the remaining points around the rest of the list in upgrades. (Perhaps some HK missiles on the Chimeras)

Did you forget something in your list above? I put it into army builder and I only got 1400.

Oh, probably an assortment of things. That's just the rough outline of the list. I frequently run an officer of the fleet, and occasionally an astropath as well. I also put various toys on the company commander, etc. Occasionally give the melta vets in the Vendetta demolitions, and shotguns, etc.

I've come up with a variation that doesn't have a Vendetta, looks a bit like this;

Company Command Squad, 4 Plasma, officer of the fleet, plasma pistol + power weapon for commander, chimera with hull heavy flamer + HK missile.

2 x Melta Vets, shotguns, power weapon, chimera with hull heavy flamer + HK missile.

Plasma vets, chimera with hull heavy flamer + HK missile.

2 x Hellhound with hull multi-melta

Leman Russ Executioner with plasma sponsons, hull heavy flamer

Manticore, hull heavy flamer

Marbo.

Really, the power weapons were an afterthought because I had a few points left over. Giving the melta vets shotguns and a power weapon with the sgt gives them the option of shooting then assaulting as a follow up. I couldn't reall find anything better to do with 30 spare points.

My big concern with trading in a Vendetta for Marbo is that you're changing out one of your two long range antitank pieces for something that fills a completely different role.

How about:

CCS - 4 plas, chimera

Meltavets in chimera
Meltavets in chimera
Plasmavets in chimera

Hellhound - mm
Hellhound - mm

LRE - 2 plascannon sponsons
Manticore
Manticore

That gives you a secondary manticore for long range anti-tank/horde control, special weapons for dealing with MEQ, and all in all feels very well rounded. You could even go so far as to, with the remaining points, toss two scout sentinels for outflanking multiLAZORS! and have 5 points left for whatever upgrade sounds good.

The problem here is you're trying to have it all. High mobility, long range firepower, cheap price tag, oh - and I want it to be invincible for the first turn. Not going to happen, nor should it ever happen. There needs to be an element of risk when using any unit, wether it be the chance it can't make it to the enemy fast enough or the possibility of getting blown up 1st turn. You get the benefit of a guaranteed 4+ cover save the first round, which is far better than my vindicators get if I don't get to go first and pop smoke.

The point has been made before, and I agree, that you're making target priority too easy for your opponent with that list. Why would they possibly shoot anything else first?

Can someone link to this FAQ?