Kanluwen wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:

SilverMK2 wrote:Cloning is very much frowned upon in the 40K universe. Kreig is pretty much the only example where cloning is permitted.

Krieg do not clone humans, this a misunderstanding of fluff, they use Vitae Wombs, this allows for the rapid growth of unique (not cloned) humans. it basically removes the need for sex and women carrying the fetus for 9 months. This is still frowned upon, but no where near to extent that cloning is despised by the IoM.

Actually, it's not. The Vitae Wombs are what the 'pureblood' Kriegers come from, the kinds of folks who make officer. They then actively clone those individuals, depending on the kinds of combat or leadership prowess the 'purebloods' display.

The only examples of space marine cloning have ended in disaster

You're partially right on this account. The Astral Claws were found, in the latter parts of the Badab War, to actively be cloning Astartes--and it was working.

Fafnir wrote:It's very unlikely that a chapter would be made from the geneseed of any progenitor not of the first founding. Likewise, a new chapter would end up with their own sector. That, or they'd be fleet based.

This is not true, there are fluff for non-first founding chapters being used to create new chapters eg Astral Claws geneseed was said to found the Tiger Claws and two other chapters.

While it is said that the majority of space marine chapters are formed from Ultramarine genestock, it means that geneseed from chapters that are successors to the Ultramarines are used the majority of the time and due to its stability you wouldn't see any major changes in the geneseed over the sucessive chapter generations.

Again: partially correct. It's not common for non-First Founding Chapters or the 'original Legion' genestock to be used to found a new Chapter.

It happens, but it's pretty damned rare. What tends to happen in those situations is that

Any chapter with stable geneseed and good standing in the IoM can be used for founding a chapter.

Not necessarily true. There are plenty of Chapters with both stable geneseed and good standing within the Imperium that have been held back from being used to found successor Chapters.

NiallCampbell wrote:For example: Can a Chapter Master, such as Gabriel Angelos, request that a Chapter is created in order to assist in the defence of recruiting worlds/space lanes and so on? Or is the creation of a chapter something foreseen by the Emperor/High Lords of Terra?

Inquisitors or chapter masters can petition for a new chapter to be founded, such as Dark Angels chapter master Anaziel petitioning for the founding of the Disciples of Caliban. This however was reported in fluff as being 'unheard of from a chapter master' and was very difficult even for a chapter master of a first founding chapter. So for Gabriel Angelos, a chapter master of a much later founding, with a mysterious past and alot of very questionable acts and events within the chapter, he probably wouldn't get listened to, let alone discussed.

The reason it was 'unheard of' was because it was a Dark Angels Chapter Master petitioning for the founding of a Chapter, but giving no reason. It was like if I were to go to a bank and ask for a million dollars, but give no reason--yet I plead my case so well and use all my favors to get it pushed through.

Gabriel Angelos would be heard, you can be assured of that. Despite the "questionable acts" or "events within the Chapter", he's proven himself to be staunchly loyal to the Imperium--to the point of razing a Chapter recruiting world at the slightest sign of taint.

Also, protecting recruitment worlds is the sole responsibility of the chapter as well as protecting the system they are in, if a Chapter was unable to do this it would be more likely that they would be sent of a penitence crusade then get extra help.

Correct...kind of. Protecting recruiting worlds is the responsibility of the Chapter, but the Imperium is also supposed to step in and come to their aid if it's a threat that they couldn't reasonably defeat themselves.

Given that many recruiting worlds are nothing more than barbaric deathworlds, however, they tend to just move on to a new world. It's only when you have a system like Ultramar or Meridian that the Chapter would be punished for letting them fall.

While successors often have close ties with their founders, they are themselves a separate entity and must support themselves. the saying goes 'this town ain't big enough for the both of us' and this is very true to space marine chapters. There is no point putting two chapters in the same close area.

Again: not true. The founding Chapter is supposed to aid the successor 'come into its own' in many cases. Think of it as a training officer being assigned to a rookie policeman. You want them to be able to succeed, so you show them how it's done

BluntmanDC wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

BluntmanDC wrote:

SilverMK2 wrote:Cloning is very much frowned upon in the 40K universe. Kreig is pretty much the only example where cloning is permitted.

Krieg do not clone humans, this a misunderstanding of fluff, they use Vitae Wombs, this allows for the rapid growth of unique (not cloned) humans. it basically removes the need for sex and women carrying the fetus for 9 months. This is still frowned upon, but no where near to extent that cloning is despised by the IoM.

Actually, it's not. The Vitae Wombs are what the 'pureblood' Kriegers come from, the kinds of folks who make officer. They then actively clone those individuals, depending on the kinds of combat or leadership prowess the 'purebloods' display.

can i have the fluff that says that

The only examples of space marine cloning have ended in disaster

You're partially right on this account. The Astral Claws were found, in the latter parts of the Badab War, to actively be cloning Astartes--and it was working.

can i have the fluff that says that

Fafnir wrote:It's very unlikely that a chapter would be made from the geneseed of any progenitor not of the first founding. Likewise, a new chapter would end up with their own sector. That, or they'd be fleet based.

This is not true, there are fluff for non-first founding chapters being used to create new chapters eg Astral Claws geneseed was said to found the Tiger Claws and two other chapters.

While it is said that the majority of space marine chapters are formed from Ultramarine genestock, it means that geneseed from chapters that are successors to the Ultramarines are used the majority of the time and due to its stability you wouldn't see any major changes in the geneseed over the sucessive chapter generations.

Again: partially correct. It's not common for non-First Founding Chapters or the 'original Legion' genestock to be used to found a new Chapter.

It happens, but it's pretty damned rare. What tends to happen in those situations is that

if you believe that only first founding chapters are used then they would constantly have to ship off members to train new chapters, this is unreasonable, i have fluff on my side with this.

Any chapter with stable geneseed and good standing in the IoM can be used for founding a chapter.

Not necessarily true. There are plenty of Chapters with both stable geneseed and good standing within the Imperium that have been held back from being used to found successor Chapters.

you have no proof of this.

Salamanders. Raven Guard. Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, et all.

Have they been used to found Chapters before? Yes. But there are occasions where they are not used to found Chapters, but rather an amalgated mixture of various Chapters' gene-seed was used.

NiallCampbell wrote:For example: Can a Chapter Master, such as Gabriel Angelos, request that a Chapter is created in order to assist in the defence of recruiting worlds/space lanes and so on? Or is the creation of a chapter something foreseen by the Emperor/High Lords of Terra?

Inquisitors or chapter masters can petition for a new chapter to be founded, such as Dark Angels chapter master Anaziel petitioning for the founding of the Disciples of Caliban. This however was reported in fluff as being 'unheard of from a chapter master' and was very difficult even for a chapter master of a first founding chapter. So for Gabriel Angelos, a chapter master of a much later founding, with a mysterious past and alot of very questionable acts and events within the chapter, he probably wouldn't get listened to, let alone discussed.

The reason it was 'unheard of' was because it was a Dark Angels Chapter Master petitioning for the founding of a Chapter, but giving no reason. It was like if I were to go to a bank and ask for a million dollars, but give no reason--yet I plead my case so well and use all my favors to get it pushed through.

Gabriel Angelos would be heard, you can be assured of that. Despite the "questionable acts" or "events within the Chapter", he's proven himself to be staunchly loyal to the Imperium--to the point of razing a Chapter recruiting world at the slightest sign of taint.

You are questioning pretty easy to understand codex fluff, why?, it says it is unheard of for a chapter master to petition for a new founding, its pretty clear.

"The Founding of the Disciples of Caliban is shrouded not only in mystery but also controversy. It is believed that Dark Angels Chapter Master Anaziel made a strong request of the High Lords of Terra for a Chapter to be raised late in the 37th millenium. Much debate followed, for it was unheard of for a Chapter Master to make such a request, and although no clear reason was given by the Dark Angels the request was eventually granted and the Disciples of Caliban were created."

So...keywords:
'Believed'
'No clear reason was given by the Dark Angels'.

It's not an uncommon request to be made. However, it's uncommon for the Dark Angels to make that request.

Also, protecting recruitment worlds is the sole responsibility of the chapter as well as protecting the system they are in, if a Chapter was unable to do this it would be more likely that they would be sent of a penitence crusade then get extra help.

Correct...kind of. Protecting recruiting worlds is the responsibility of the Chapter, but the Imperium is also supposed to step in and come to their aid if it's a threat that they couldn't reasonably defeat themselves.

Given that many recruiting worlds are nothing more than barbaric deathworlds, however, they tend to just move on to a new world. It's only when you have a system like Ultramar or Meridian that the Chapter would be punished for letting them fall.

This isn't true at all, recruitment worlds are an integral part of a chapters belief system and are defended till the bitter end, and losing one can and has resulted in crusades. Space marine chapters own their home world it is theirs to defend not other IoM as seen in fluff.

So, Ultramarines defended Ultramar by their lonesome then?
How about Rynn's World?

Like I said: Protecting the recruiting worlds is the responsibility of the Chapter, but the Imperium is also supposed to step in and come to their aid if it's a threat that they couldn't reasonably defeat themselves.

While successors often have close ties with their founders, they are themselves a separate entity and must support themselves. the saying goes 'this town ain't big enough for the both of us' and this is very true to space marine chapters. There is no point putting two chapters in the same close area.

Again: not true. The founding Chapter is supposed to aid the successor 'come into its own' in many cases. Think of it as a training officer being assigned to a rookie policeman. You want them to be able to succeed, so you show them how it's done

If you actually read that properly you would understand it. I know full well that a founding chapter helps train its successor. but after a chapter is stably set up it is a self contained entity that looks after itself. I was saying that two chapters would not coexist on the same planet or star system as it is a major waste of resourses.

And if you actually read my post properly, you would understand that I wasn't saying that after a Chapter is stably set up it isn't a "self-contained entity that looks after itself".

And for that matter: a Founding Chapter does not necessarily "help train its Successor". That is a misstatement that is continually propagated, despite being incorrect.
SOME Chapters do train their Successors. But in many cases, the personages who "help train the Successor" are, in fact, permanently reassigned to the Chapter. They become the Chapter's leadership cadre.

You are correct in that two Chapters would not coexist on the same planet--there's no issue with the same star system. It would lead to some rivalry situations, but no real problems.

Kanluwen wrote:
And for that matter: a Founding Chapter does not necessarily "help train its Successor". That is a misstatement that is continually propagated, despite being incorrect.
SOME Chapters do train their Successors. But in many cases, the personages who "help train the Successor" are, in fact, permanently reassigned to the Chapter. They become the Chapter's leadership cadre.