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Hi folks,

Just so you're aware, I'm sneakily online at work so I can't access my codexes/rulebook at the moment hence why I'm coming here!

I'm wanting to write some background fluff for my own chapter but there's a few queries in my head that I want cleared up so I get things right. Some of these may seem daft but bear with me, some of them you may think 'oh feth sake, not this again' but again please bear with me

Background info - I want my chapter (Bone Ravens) to be a sub chapter of the Blood Ravens. Tasked primarily with the defense of the homeworld/recruiting grounds as well as off-world offenses to tackle enemy incursions etc. in the subsector.

1. Chapter will be formed after Gabriel Angelos' ascension to Chapter Master. Does anyone know the approximate date/year of this?

2. Can SM reproduce/clone etc? I'm quite keen on having a family type heirarchy to my organisation, just don't know if it's even possible. I'm wanting them to be quite Assault/Fast Attack based so the idea would be to have veterans such as Sgt. Thaddeus as father figures to goto for inspiration and so on. My Captain's dual LC are a gift/family heirloom from Thaddeus himself etc etc - you get the idea.

3. My force commander - Captain XYZ (haven't thought of a name yet) is going to be a brash, arogant, young warrior for character...but in terms of age how old is a typical SM before being given this sort of responsibility? Are we talking centuries of service before even leaving the Scout Corps? In other words, would be it completely stupid 'fluff wise' having a 50 year old Captain of a company?

I'm sure I'll think of more - but this'll help get me started ;D

Cheers

NC.

Hi NC,

I recently asked some similar questions of dakka - how is the officer corps of a new chapter formed, and going into the nitty-gritty of who gets to be chapter master & why etc, and got a lot of good answers both based on canon and attempting to logically fill in the gaps. There's two theories out there as to how founding is carried out, both have positive and negative points but neither are 'official' - you're tending towards the 'cadre' theory, and hopefully this discussion will help you a bit with your fluff:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/344419.page
although after all that, I'm sure you'll still have more questions

Regards,

Cap'n R

1. No idea
2. I believe SM's are infertile, so baby making is out of the question. Maybe several marines are recruited from the same famiy though?
3. No idea

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Blood_Ravens

Not sure if it will have the information you want on the Blood Ravens, but it might help you in other aspects of your project.

2) Cloning is very much frowned upon in the 40K universe. Kreig is pretty much the only example where cloning is permitted.

SM generally are portrayed as being warrior monks. It is unclear whether they are able to reproduce physically in the fluff, and generally they will be taken into training/alteration before they are old enough to reproduce in their "old life".

It is also mentioned in several books that SM only have very vague memories (if any at all) of their life pre-marine (possibly in part because they were quite young when taken and partly because of the training and indoctrination they get).

Thus while I can't see there being genetic father/son links in the chapter, older SM do generally become mentors to younger ones and could fulfill almost a father type role.

You may also have genetic cousins etc in the chapter, but as mentioned above, I don't know how aware of this Marines would be. Also, due to their long service life and long training, even a generation of normal humans would not really be a great deal of time for a SM to advance himself in the ranks to become a father figure (though he could be a full brother marine looking after a younger recruit.

However, you have to remember that the whole thing about being a SM is loyalty to the chapter and the Emporor, not to your genetic family (if you even know/remember who they are).

3) 50 years is not a long time for a space marine. I would not have thought that a 50 year old marine would be a force commander unless his chapter suffered a massive number of casualties (ie was almost entirely wiped out).

50 years of service (so 60-70 years old) might see a brother rise to command a squad, or perhaps the next rank up if there were significant casulaties and very meritous service.

There is a discussion on SM ages here

NiallCampbell wrote:

Background info - I want my chapter (Bone Ravens) to be a sub chapter of the Blood Ravens. Tasked primarily with the defense of the homeworld/recruiting grounds as well as off-world offenses to tackle enemy incursions etc. in the subsector.

It's very unlikely that a chapter would be made from the geneseed of any progenitor not of the first founding. Likewise, a new chapter would end up with their own sector. That, or they'd be fleet based.

1. Chapter will be formed after Gabriel Angelos' ascension to Chapter Master. Does anyone know the approximate date/year of this?

No clue.

2. Can SM reproduce/clone etc? I'm quite keen on having a family type heirarchy to my organisation, just don't know if it's even possible. I'm wanting them to be quite Assault/Fast Attack based so the idea would be to have veterans such as Sgt. Thaddeus as father figures to goto for inspiration and so on. My Captain's dual LC are a gift/family heirloom from Thaddeus himself etc etc - you get the idea.

No. Space Marines are sterile. The hormone therapy and implants leaves them with nothing in the way of reproductive abilities. It's likely that their testicles end up being the size of raisens with all the steroids they'd need to enhance their growth.

3. My force commander - Captain XYZ (haven't thought of a name yet) is going to be a brash, arogant, young warrior for character...but in terms of age how old is a typical SM before being given this sort of responsibility? Are we talking centuries of service before even leaving the Scout Corps? In other words, would be it completely stupid 'fluff wise' having a 50 year old Captain of a company?

For a captain, generally a few hundred years. 50 years old is quite young, and would probably be more along the lines of either a normal marine or a sergeant.

NiallCampbell wrote:

1. Chapter will be formed after Gabriel Angelos' ascension to Chapter Master. Does anyone know the approximate date/year of this?

I don't know the exact date of Gabriel being made Chapter Master, but it would have to be after 745 M41, which was the year of the first sighting of the Tyranids. As there hasn't actually been a Space Marine Founding since then (The last founding, the 26th taking place in 738 M41), technically it's not possible to have them come from after the events of Dawn of War II. However, I'm sure you can probably find a way to write in a reason for their solo founding if you so wish.

2. Can SM reproduce/clone etc? I'm quite keen on having a family type heirarchy to my organisation, just don't know if it's even possible. I'm wanting them to be quite Assault/Fast Attack based so the idea would be to have veterans such as Sgt. Thaddeus as father figures to goto for inspiration and so on. My Captain's dual LC are a gift/family heirloom from Thaddeus himself etc etc - you get the idea.

There was one attempt at cloning Astartes that I know of. It was by the Raven Guard Primarch Corax, and turned out rather badly, with misshapen beasts. My thoughts would be to build any hierachy based on clans that you recruit from, and have it translate over to your recruits, and maybe just never go away.

3. My force commander - Captain XYZ (haven't thought of a name yet) is going to be a brash, arogant, young warrior for character...but in terms of age how old is a typical SM before being given this sort of responsibility? Are we talking centuries of service before even leaving the Scout Corps? In other words, would be it completely stupid 'fluff wise' having a 50 year old Captain of a company?

Aye, this would be incredibly odd, at least in most chapters. In most Chapters, 50 years would be about time you could gain the rank of Sergeant, if that. From what I understand, you're likely made battle-brother anywhere between 18-30, depending on Chapter, and then it progresses from there. Other marines will likely have decades, even centuries of experience beyond your Captain, and would likely be promoted first.

Also, is Force Commander actually a true Space Marine rank, or just a title that Relic came up with? Only thing I know even close to it is Commander Dante.

---

As always, your models, your fluff, you do as you wish. My points are merely based on the Black Library/Games Workshop works, and should be taken as the 'nitpicking guy who will point out everything that's wrong with it' .

I don't believe Force Commander is a formal position amoung Space Marines, but I can see it being assigned to a commander when there is no captain present.

You might find this useful

Thank you for all your replies - they really help
While each individual player's background fluff differs dramatically, I'm geeky enough to want my own to be fairly accurate

For example - Fafnir, the info about the un-likelihood of a sub Blood Ravens force is useful...I may have to rethink my fluff!

Thanks for all the links.

NC.

NiallCampbell wrote:Thank you for all your replies - they really help
While each individual player's background fluff differs dramatically, I'm geeky enough to want my own to be fairly accurate

For example - Fafnir, the info about the un-likelihood of a sub Blood Ravens force is useful...I may have to rethink my fluff!

Thanks for all the links.

NC.

All chapters need to give a tithe of 5% of their gene stock for monitoring and storage. The Imperium has a massive store of the stuff from every chapter created. In order for a founding to be made entirely from a non-originator chapter, it would need to be quite old, or have a large turnover of geneseed.

Alternatively, they could meld together geneseed stocks from various chapters to create a bit of a mongrel chapter.

P.S. Pilau Rice, thanks for the link, sadly it doesn't work :(


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ahh - I did a search on Google for the article and found this page:

http://www.downloadmunkey.net/2007/03/index-astartes-blood-ravens-pdf/

It looks like (from the comments) that GW haven't refreshed the link or it's no longer available. I've emailed GW direct to try and get it from them...

Failing that does anyone know where it can now be found?

Ta.

NiallCampbell wrote:P.S. Pilau Rice, thanks for the link, sadly it doesn't work :(

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ahh - I did a search on Google for the article and found this page:

http://www.downloadmunkey.net/2007/03/index-astartes-blood-ravens-pdf/

It looks like (from the comments) that GW haven't refreshed the link or it's no longer available. I've emailed GW direct to try and get it from them...

Failing that does anyone know where it can now be found?

Ta.

It should work as it's a downloadable pdf that I have uploaded.

Did you click download - probably a stupid question

You could have a mentor system like the BT have. Each marine trains an initiate and sponsors him for active duty.
It is a sign of honour for an initiate you have trained to make it into the scout sqauds and then full marine status.

Hmm that's an interesting idea Purplefood...I could have them as not so much a seperate chapter but a sub-chapter for Blood Ravens i.e. they have 'x' number of years in service as Boen Ravens before ascending to the ranks of the Blood Ravens...

Ofc nothing in Blood Ravens fluff supports that lol. Ah heck I'll get it eventually

@PilauRice - aye, daft question ;D Ofc I clicked haha

Edit: *egg on face*...Ok so I clicked 'save' this time rather than 'open'....got it thanks PR!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
With regards to the 'Force Commander' comments - yes, maybe I am using Relic terminology. When I say Force Commander I merely mean Company Captain etc i.e as per the codex.

Maybe it would be better to have the two chapters simply be very close.
The Bone Ravens will assist the Blood Ravens in times of need and they will also help the Blood Ravens reclaim relics and guard certain parts of space.
The cannot be too close because the Inq. is already a touch suspicious of the Blood Ravens because of all the psykers and having a chapter that is semingly following the orders of another chapter would be even more suspicious.

*Thumbs Up*
Sounds good

Edit: After reading the Index Astartes BR link it looks like GW or Relic changed the fluff a bit...is Azariah Vidya meant to be the same as the traitorous Azariah Kyras (DoW2: Chaos Rising & Retribution)?

NiallCampbell wrote:Background info - I want my chapter (Bone Ravens) to be a sub chapter of the Blood Ravens. Tasked primarily with the defense of the homeworld/recruiting grounds as well as off-world offenses to tackle enemy incursions etc. in the subsector.

There's not really any such thing as a 'sub-chapter'. The point of the Space Marine Chapters being autonomous is that they have no grand organisational ties. The Blood Ravens are required to send gene seed samples back to Terra, though, so in theory there could certainly be a chapter formed from their gene-seed. Of course, this might be a big secret - the Blood Angels are a suspicious chapter to many so they certainly wouldn't be the first choice for a new chaper's gene-seed.

The new chapter could choose to maintain close ties to their 'parent' chapter or strike out on their own - it's really up to the chapter itself. For example, many of the Dark Angels successors maintain very very close ties to the Dark Angels, helping them out when requested. However, the new chapter would have their OWN homeworld and recruitment areas.

NiallCampbell wrote:2. Can SM reproduce/clone etc? I'm quite keen on having a family type heirarchy to my organisation, just don't know if it's even possible. I'm wanting them to be quite Assault/Fast Attack based so the idea would be to have veterans such as Sgt. Thaddeus as father figures to goto for inspiration and so on. My Captain's dual LC are a gift/family heirloom from Thaddeus himself etc etc - you get the idea.

Though you can't have a genetic hierarchy, you can have similar father/son/mentor relationships. Often, when a new chapter is created, a number of Marines from the parent chapter act as the command staff. In your situation, it's likely that the new Chapter Master used to be a Captain or something in the Blood Ravens, and the new Captains might have been Sgts in the Blood Ravens. There's no reason why your Chapter Master can't still have a close bond with his old, father-figure, Chapter Master.

NiallCampbell wrote:3. My force commander - Captain XYZ (haven't thought of a name yet) is going to be a brash, arogant, young warrior for character...but in terms of age how old is a typical SM before being given this sort of responsibility? Are we talking centuries of service before even leaving the Scout Corps? In other words, would be it completely stupid 'fluff wise' having a 50 year old Captain of a company?

Yes, you're probably looking at at LEAST 100/150 before becoming Captain, but remember that this 'new Chapter Master' honour can be given or a variety of reasons. Maybe it was a young, newly promoted Captain of the Blood Angels who proved that XYZ Sector needed more protection, uncovering an importand relic or shrine or something. This young Captain is therefore, in recognition, made Master of the new Chapter formed to Guard the Sector.

Or something.

@Captain Roderick - thanks for that link...makes for an interesting read.

You're right though - further questions are raised haha.

For example: Can a Chapter Master, such as Gabriel Angelos, request that a Chapter is created in order to assist in the defence of recruiting worlds/space lanes and so on?

Or is the creation of a chapter something foreseen by the Emperor/High Lords of Terra?

Anyone got a clue how long it would take to go from a single geneseed to a 1000 strong fighting force? (Edit: Someone in the thread Roderick linked suggested a 50 year time frame)

And with that in mind...are Blood Ravens descended from the stock of Ultramarines geneseed? I know they have an unknown Primarch etc etc...but UM do provide the 'most' geneseed apparently.

I had to respnd to thread entitled "Fluff Query", I mean, how often does one see this written out.

That said...

I believe SM's are infertile or 'mules'. Now, they don't start out that way as the SMs are recruited from viable breeding populations. Perhaps the gene-seed does this in order to maintain as much 'purity' of purpose as is possible. Eliminating the 'need' to breed in much the same way 'fear' is removed from their psyche is probably genetic and not done through training.

NiallCampbell wrote:For example: Can a Chapter Master, such as Gabriel Angelos, request that a Chapter is created in order to assist in the defence of recruiting worlds/space lanes and so on? Or is the creation of a chapter something foreseen by the Emperor/High Lords of Terra?

Anyone can REQUEST the creation of a Chapter, but it's up to the High Lords and the Mechanicum to actually make the decision. It would probably be a more successful request if coming from a conclave of Inquisitors based in the 'unsafe' area.

NiallCampbell wrote:And with that in mind...are Blood Ravens descended from the stock of Ultramarines geneseed? I know they have an unknown Primarch etc etc...but UM do provide the 'most' geneseed apparently.

Well, that's just it. We don't know. However, various hints in fluff have pointed towards them being created from Thousand Sons gene-seed - hence the secrecy. There's some unexplained raven-related imagery in Prospero Burns, and they DO have a very high number of psykers.....

SilverMK2 wrote:Cloning is very much frowned upon in the 40K universe. Kreig is pretty much the only example where cloning is permitted.

Krieg do not clone humans, this a misunderstanding of fluff, they use Vitae Wombs, this allows for the rapid growth of unique (not cloned) humans. it basically removes the need for sex and women carrying the fetus for 9 months. This is still frowned upon, but no where near to extent that cloning is dispised by the IoM.

The only examples of space marine cloning have ended in disaster

Fafnir wrote:It's very unlikely that a chapter would be made from the geneseed of any progenitor not of the first founding. Likewise, a new chapter would end up with their own sector. That, or they'd be fleet based.

This is not true, there are fluff for non-first founding chapters being used to create new chapters eg Astral Claws geneseed was sed to found the Tiger Claws and two other chapters.

While it is said that the majority of space marine chapters are formed from Ultramarine genestock, it means that geneseed from chapters that are succesors to the Ultramarines are used the majority of the time and due to its stability you wouldn't see any major changes in the geneseed over the sucessive chapter generations.

Any chapter with stable geneseed and good standing in the IoM can be used for founding a chapter.

NiallCampbell wrote:For example: Can a Chapter Master, such as Gabriel Angelos, request that a Chapter is created in order to assist in the defence of recruiting worlds/space lanes and so on? Or is the creation of a chapter something foreseen by the Emperor/High Lords of Terra?

Inquisitors or chapter masters can petition for a new chapter to be founded, such as Dark Angels chapter master Anaziel petitioning for the founding of the Disciples of Caliban. This however was reported in fluff as being 'unheard of from a chapter master' and was very difficult even for a chapter master of a first founding chapter. So for Gabriel Angelos, a chapter master of a much later founding, with a mysterious past and alot of very questionable acts and events within the chapter, he probably wouldn't get listened to, let alone discussed.

Also, protecting recruitment worlds is the sole responsability of the chapter as well as protecting the system they are in, if a chapter was unable to do this it would be more likely that they would be sent of a pentinance crusade then get extra help.

While sucessors often have close ties with their founders, they are themselves a seperate entity and must support themselves. the saying goes 'this town ain't big enough for the both of us' and this is very true to space marine chapters. There is no point putting two chapters in the same close area.

Thanks for all your comments and links. I'll copy/paste this entire page and use it for reference in my background

*High Fives* to all who contributed

BluntmanDC wrote:Krieg do not clone humans, this a misunderstanding of fluff, they use Vitae Wombs, this allows for the rapid growth of unique (not cloned) humans. it basically removes the need for sex and women carrying the fetus for 9 months. This is still frowned upon, but no where near to extent that cloning is dispised by the IoM.

Fair enough - I thought they used cloning as part of that but apparently they don't

NiallCampbell wrote:@Captain Roderick - thanks for that link...makes for an interesting read.

You're right though - further questions are raised haha.

For example: Can a Chapter Master, such as Gabriel Angelos, request that a Chapter is created in order to assist in the defence of recruiting worlds/space lanes and so on?

Or is the creation of a chapter something foreseen by the Emperor/High Lords of Terra?

Anyone got a clue how long it would take to go from a single geneseed to a 1000 strong fighting force? (Edit: Someone in the thread Roderick linked suggested a 50 year time frame)

the first question - chapter master requesting - has been answered by others, although I'd like to add that it'd be dang suspicious. Part of the reason the Astral Claws became so mistrusted is because they were building a powerbase greater than the strength of a single chapter, and with a few noteworthy exceptions, the whole point in the chapter system is to prevent any one being other than the Emperor being able to command so great a force.

The second and third - the Index Astartes article states 'It takes about 55 years of constant reproduction to produce 1,000 healthy sets of organs. These must be officially sanctioned by the Master of Adeptus Mechanicus and then by the High Lords of Terra speaking for the Emperor. Only the Emperor can give permission for the creation of a new Chapter.'

After that presumably comes implantation of all the marines, training, stockpiling of arms, vehicles and ships, formation of a structure, setting up a homeworld, and yet more grimdark bureaucracy.

I'm currently of the opinion it'd probably be between 1 and 3 centuries from the initial geneseed selection for a chapter to be fully operational - which has happened on only 26 occasions in the past ten millennia.

hope that helps.

Cheers for that =)

So I'm thinking that these guys will be fleet based. Although in my particular set of fluff, I really only want to be looking at one company out of the ten (assuming they adhere to the 10x10x10 approach of the other chapters).

With that in mind, how large a fleet would a SM force need to transport an entire company along with chaptor supports i.e.servitors/librarians/etc etc.

Would one battle barge for the company and two strike cruisers for the support be sufficient?

Ta.

NiallCampbell wrote:Cheers for that =)

So I'm thinking that these guys will be fleet based. Although in my particular set of fluff, I really only want to be looking at one company out of the ten (assuming they adhere to the 10x10x10 approach of the other chapters).

With that in mind, how large a fleet would a SM force need to transport an entire company along with chaptor supports i.e.servitors/librarians/etc etc.

Would one battle barge for the company and two strike cruisers for the support be sufficient?

Ta.

According to Battlefleet Gothic, most Chapters only have access to two or three Battle Barges, and your is quite a new chapter, so I guess it would only have two.

A single Strike Cruiser would be easily enough for a full company, but then if you're planning to include the Chapter Master in your army then I guess your little bit of the chapter would probably include the Battle Barge...!

Though I would expect purely fleet based chapters may have more ships.

If you do want this chapter to be spawned from the Blood Ravens, but take place after the events of DoW II and still fit the fluff, I have a suggestion:

They're a chapter from the future (M42 or M43) who got caught in a nasty warp storm that actually ended up moving them backwards in time.

BluntmanDC wrote:

SilverMK2 wrote:Cloning is very much frowned upon in the 40K universe. Kreig is pretty much the only example where cloning is permitted.

Krieg do not clone humans, this a misunderstanding of fluff, they use Vitae Wombs, this allows for the rapid growth of unique (not cloned) humans. it basically removes the need for sex and women carrying the fetus for 9 months. This is still frowned upon, but no where near to extent that cloning is despised by the IoM.

Actually, it's not. The Vitae Wombs are what the 'pureblood' Kriegers come from, the kinds of folks who make officer. They then actively clone those individuals, depending on the kinds of combat or leadership prowess the 'purebloods' display.

The only examples of space marine cloning have ended in disaster

You're partially right on this account. The Astral Claws were found, in the latter parts of the Badab War, to actively be cloning Astartes--and it was working.

Fafnir wrote:It's very unlikely that a chapter would be made from the geneseed of any progenitor not of the first founding. Likewise, a new chapter would end up with their own sector. That, or they'd be fleet based.

This is not true, there are fluff for non-first founding chapters being used to create new chapters eg Astral Claws geneseed was said to found the Tiger Claws and two other chapters.

While it is said that the majority of space marine chapters are formed from Ultramarine genestock, it means that geneseed from chapters that are successors to the Ultramarines are used the majority of the time and due to its stability you wouldn't see any major changes in the geneseed over the sucessive chapter generations.

Again: partially correct. It's not common for non-First Founding Chapters or the 'original Legion' genestock to be used to found a new Chapter.

It happens, but it's pretty damned rare. What tends to happen in those situations is that

Any chapter with stable geneseed and good standing in the IoM can be used for founding a chapter.

Not necessarily true. There are plenty of Chapters with both stable geneseed and good standing within the Imperium that have been held back from being used to found successor Chapters.

NiallCampbell wrote:For example: Can a Chapter Master, such as Gabriel Angelos, request that a Chapter is created in order to assist in the defence of recruiting worlds/space lanes and so on? Or is the creation of a chapter something foreseen by the Emperor/High Lords of Terra?

Inquisitors or chapter masters can petition for a new chapter to be founded, such as Dark Angels chapter master Anaziel petitioning for the founding of the Disciples of Caliban. This however was reported in fluff as being 'unheard of from a chapter master' and was very difficult even for a chapter master of a first founding chapter. So for Gabriel Angelos, a chapter master of a much later founding, with a mysterious past and alot of very questionable acts and events within the chapter, he probably wouldn't get listened to, let alone discussed.

The reason it was 'unheard of' was because it was a Dark Angels Chapter Master petitioning for the founding of a Chapter, but giving no reason. It was like if I were to go to a bank and ask for a million dollars, but give no reason--yet I plead my case so well and use all my favors to get it pushed through.

Gabriel Angelos would be heard, you can be assured of that. Despite the "questionable acts" or "events within the Chapter", he's proven himself to be staunchly loyal to the Imperium--to the point of razing a Chapter recruiting world at the slightest sign of taint.

Also, protecting recruitment worlds is the sole responsibility of the chapter as well as protecting the system they are in, if a Chapter was unable to do this it would be more likely that they would be sent of a penitence crusade then get extra help.

Correct...kind of. Protecting recruiting worlds is the responsibility of the Chapter, but the Imperium is also supposed to step in and come to their aid if it's a threat that they couldn't reasonably defeat themselves.

Given that many recruiting worlds are nothing more than barbaric deathworlds, however, they tend to just move on to a new world. It's only when you have a system like Ultramar or Meridian that the Chapter would be punished for letting them fall.

While successors often have close ties with their founders, they are themselves a separate entity and must support themselves. the saying goes 'this town ain't big enough for the both of us' and this is very true to space marine chapters. There is no point putting two chapters in the same close area.

Again: not true. The founding Chapter is supposed to aid the successor 'come into its own' in many cases. Think of it as a training officer being assigned to a rookie policeman. You want them to be able to succeed, so you show them how it's done.

Niall--if you want some really effective ways to figure out the vagueries of founding a Successor Chapter--pick up the Deathwatch RPG supplement "Rites of Battle".

It gives you the framework of everything you could plausibly need, meaning you'd just have to flesh it out a bit more.

Kanluwen wrote:Actually, it's not. The Vitae Wombs are what the 'pureblood' Kriegers come from, the kinds of folks who make officer. They then actively clone those individuals, depending on the kinds of combat or leadership prowess the 'purebloods' display.

I knew I had read somewhere that one of the reasons they kept their gasmasks on all the time was because many of them were cloned