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Blackmoor wrote:

Fafnir wrote:
Why would you send a lowly strike squad to take out a unit of Nob Bikers?

It was a response to the OP assertion of:

Tarkand wrote:
Doesn't totally wreck Nobz (and other multi-wound squads)?

And you do not go after Nob Bikers, they come for you. It is an illustration that the Force weapon at WS 4, Strength 4, with 1 attack will not be the end of Nobz.

Note: What really kills Nobz is Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield Terminators.

Think of it like this: If you're going to send a ~700 point unit towards my lines, I'll sure as hell have a similarly costed unit ready just to ensure you won't even get to my ligher squads. And a Nob squad will not stand a chance against a similarly costed Paladin or Terminator squad.

I disagree about terminators being all that great.

The thing that makes terminators worth taking are Stormshields. Period.

To give you an example:
Deathwing without stormshields=Bad
Deathwing with Stormshields=Great


I do not run into Nobz that much, but when I run into Nob Bikers they have at least 3 Power Klaws. I am willing to bet that a Nob Biker squad can beat an equal costed Paladin Squad.

Against Paladins they would, since they negate the one reason paladins cost more than normal termies (well two, the Apothecary and 2 wounds). Normal Termies though might be superior. I need to see the actual book to render judgement.

Fafnir wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:

Fafnir wrote:
Why would you send a lowly strike squad to take out a unit of Nob Bikers?

It was a response to the OP assertion of:

Tarkand wrote:
Doesn't totally wreck Nobz (and other multi-wound squads)?

And you do not go after Nob Bikers, they come for you. It is an illustration that the Force weapon at WS 4, Strength 4, with 1 attack will not be the end of Nobz.

Note: What really kills Nobz is Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield Terminators.

Think of it like this: If you're going to send a ~700 point unit towards my lines, I'll sure as hell have a similarly costed unit ready just to ensure you won't even get to my ligher squads. And a Nob squad will not stand a chance against a similarly costed Paladin or Terminator squad.

That's pretty much what I meant.

Grey Knight Strike squad won't do much against Nobz, granted... but Terminator, Paladin or Purifier squad can do quite the number. Having a Grand Master give any of those Counter Attack also mean you don't care that much if they charge you. You can easily average 7 ID wounds at I4 with 5 such models (30 Attack with CS). Granted, your nobs will have Cybork... but you've just lost 4-5 to nobs to a squad that probably cost LESS than your uber nob death star.

I also agree with Fafnir that at similar cost, Paladin beat Nobz. You can do wound allocation shenanigans with the Paladin as well, and a 2+ with FNP means only the nob with power klaws even matter at all. With a generous mix of Warding Stave and standard nemesis weapon (for that 4+ inv save) you can also really slow down even those powers klaws.

If you're willing to plunk down 700 point on a paladin squad, you can do something truly disgusting with it. Hard to top as far as Death Star go really.

Blackmoor wrote:I disagree about terminators being all that great.

The thing that makes terminators worth taking are Stormshields. Period.

To give you an example:
Deathwing without stormshields=Bad
Deathwing with Stormshields=Great


I do not run into Nobz that much, but when I run into Nob Bikers they have at least 3 Power Klaws. I am willing to bet that a Nob Biker squad can beat an equal costed Paladin Squad.

Okay, we'll assume that there's a 10-man nob biker unit with a waaagh! Banner and 3 powerklaws and a Warboss with a powerklaw, attack squig, bike, and cybork body. That comes to around ~800 points.


So, here we go with a Paladin Squad:
10*Paladins
Brotherhood Banner
Psycannon(2)
Warding Stave(1)
Psybolt Ammunition
Nemesis Daemon Hammer(1)
Falchion(3)
Halberd(3)

Grand Master with Rad, Blind and Psychostroke Grenades

That unit comes to 850 points.

We'll assume that no shooting is done. Ork Nobz get the charge. We'll assume that the Grand Master didn't give any Grand Strategy bonuses to the Paladins that would affect them in combat.

1. Blind Grenades come into play-Nobz do not gain bonus attacks for charging.
2. Psychostroke Grenades come into play. (roll a D6, on a 2, all GK attacks automatically hit and enemy models can only make one attack each, on a 3 all Grey Knights may reroll to hit, on a 4 the nobz are Ld2, on a 5 all the nobz are I1, and on a 6 each model in the nob unit must pass an Initiative test or they will attack their own unit in the assault phase)
3. Rad Grenades come into play, the toughness of the Nobz unit is reduced by 1, making them T3(4).
4. Grand Master uses Hammerhand, all Grey Knights in the unit have their strength increased by 1, making them S5.

Onto actual combat (we'll assume that the Grey Knight player rolled a 1 or 4 for the Psychostroke Grenades):
5.Halberd Grey Knights attack first at I6, with 3 (banner gives +1 attack) attacks each. Two unsaved wounds are made. Force weapons activate (banner makes them pass the test automatically), two nobz die.

6.Grand Master attacks at I5 with 4 attacks. Inflicts 1 unsaved wound, but since he already used his psychic power to give the squad hammerhand, he doesn't kill anything.

7.Nobz attack at I4 (same time as the Grey Knights). We'll assume that they have 24 attacks at S5, and 3 attacks at S7 (remember, they are under the effect of Blind Grenades, so they don't gain any bonus attacks for charging). They inflict a total of 1.5 wounds, which is distributed throughout the unit, no Paladins die.

8.Attacking at the same time as the Nobz, the Paladins get 24 attacks at S5. They inflict 5 more unsaved wounds. 5 Nobz die (at this point, we'll assume one of them was the warboss by now).

9.3 Nobz are left alive. We'll assume that all all three powerklaw nobz didn't fail any of their invulnerable saves and are still alive, so they get 9 powerklaw attacks. They inflict 2 unsaved wounds, killing two Paladins outright.

10.Hammer Paladin strikes at the same time as the powerklaw nobz. He inflicts one more wound, instantly killing another Nob.

The Nobz have overall inflicted 5.5 wounds (2 instant deaths, and 1.5 spread through unit), and the Paladins have inflicted 20 wounds (8 nobz instantly killed, one warboss instantly killed, and one wound inflicted by the Grand Master).

Nobz flee at I3. Being below half strength, unless the Ork player calls his Waaagh!, the Nobz are for all purposes no longer in the game.

If the Gkgm was upgraded with psychic mastery 2 you could have used both hammerhand and the force weapon... That is of course +35 points, but then again I'm not sure how much useful is psyvbolt ammo on that unit....

Blackmoor wrote:I disagree about terminators being all that great.

The thing that makes terminators worth taking are Stormshields. Period.

To give you an example:
Deathwing without stormshields=Bad
Deathwing with Stormshields=Great

That's a rather interesting opinion. I take it you never used Terminators before 5th?

To give a counter-example:
Terminators (any variety, even old stormshield) = good
Terminators with Stormshields = so ridiculously good that other varieties and units are a joke

GeckoOBac wrote:If the Gkgm was upgraded with psychic mastery 2 you could have used both hammerhand and the force weapon... That is of course +35 points, but then again I'm not sure how much useful is psyvbolt ammo on that unit....

I'm just going with a loadout that I would take (although I would drop a few Paladins to take a Librarian).

If you're having a Grand Master entourage with a bunch of Paladins, paying for psychic mastery 2 is a little overkill, since the squad itself will have plenty of it's own force weapons that have the added bonus of automatically activating without actually having to risk perils of the warp. I would take the GM for his support qualities first and formost, those being his Rad/Blind/Psychostroke Grenades, his ability to cast Hammerhand on the squad (allowing them to use their force weapons while still being S5), Psychic Communion, and Grand Strategy. If he manages to help kill something on his own, that's just a bonus.

The Grand Master's got some decent combat abilities, but there are better beatsticks out there (and losing one attack didn't help), both in the codex and beyond it. The Grand Master's real strength lies in his abilities as a support character and force multiplier. You could compare him to a Company Command Squad in terms of utility.

Remember, the Grand Master is a leader first, and a fighter second (which is why I disapprove of the Brother Captain so much, since you throw away so much of that utility for no real increased benefit in combat. Twenty-five points does not justify it either).

Crevab wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:I disagree about terminators being all that great.

The thing that makes terminators worth taking are Stormshields. Period.

To give you an example:
Deathwing without stormshields=Bad
Deathwing with Stormshields=Great

That's a rather interesting opinion. I take it you never used Terminators before 5th?

To give a counter-example:
Terminators (any variety, even old stormshield) = good
Terminators with Stormshields = so ridiculously good that other varieties and units are a joke

True but... GK terminators are not particularly more resilient to low ap ranged fire than PA squads, and cost up to twice more. To get them covered you need either a stormraven or a land raider... Both cost a lot and the land raider also occupies a slot that may be taken by something more useful in the long run. Without stomrshields deepstriking them doesn't sound a good idea unless the bulk of your army is deep striking as well...
Paladins suffer from the same shortcomings as terminators but with an added wound, for almost 40% more cost. Also they're T4 and so any kind of serious artillery will kill them in exactly the same way as standard terminators.

So they're not bad per se, it's just that the overall state of the codex means you'll most of the time be better off taking something else... Look at purifiers, same attacks, same leadership as terminators. Granted, worse armor, but they have a really powerful psychic ability to deal with hordes, can take up to 4 special weapons, can take a cheap transport to the frontlines (not as resilient as a land raider, but it also costs quite a lot less), most weapons and special weapons on them cost less than on other units and they cost a little more than a half than terminators...

I doubt it will be incredibly competetive, but I intend on running my Paladins/Terminators as a kind of Mighty Glacier, with Interceptors (and a Vindicare) acting as harrassment to keep enemy heavy weaponry out of my hair.

With harrassment units like Interceptors and wargear like Servo-skulls, I imagine that Grey Knights might end up having a fair bit of influence on the moves and deployment their opponents make.

I think one of the main tactical and strategic elements of playing Grey Knights (at least the slower lists...) competetively will be learning how to control your opponent's movements in order to make up for your own lack of (cheap) mobility.

Oh I forgot... No apothecary? Yes it's not that useful... After all, things that you can roll fnp for are already covered by the 2+ save, the rest gets ignored anyway...

I guess it'd help against masses of lowish (3+ at most) fire and melee hordes...

Also:

Fafnir wrote:

GeckoOBac wrote:If the Gkgm was upgraded with psychic mastery 2 you could have used both hammerhand and the force weapon... That is of course +35 points, but then again I'm not sure how much useful is psyvbolt ammo on that unit....

I'm just going with a loadout that I would take (although I would drop a few Paladins to take a Librarian).

If you're having a Grand Master entourage with a bunch of Paladins, paying for psychic mastery 2 is a little overkill, since the squad itself will have plenty of it's own force weapons that have the added bonus of automatically activating without actually having to risk perils of the warp. I would take the GM for his support qualities first and formost, those being his Rad/Blind/Psychostroke Grenades, his ability to cast Hammerhand on the squad (allowing them to use their force weapons while still being S5), Psychic Communion, and Grand Strategy. If he manages to help kill something on his own, that's just a bonus.

The Grand Master's got some decent combat abilities, but there are better beatsticks out there (and losing one attack didn't help), both in the codex and beyond it. The Grand Master's real strength lies in his abilities as a support character and force multiplier. You could compare him to a Company Command Squad in terms of utility.

Remember, the Grand Master is a leader first, and a fighter second (which is why I disapprove of the Brother Captain so much, since you throw away so much of that utility for no real increased benefit in combat. Twenty-five points does not justify it either).

Yeah just saying... Personally I don't like paladins much... As a distraction I'd say Mordrak is more effective and less costly, especially since it's first turn and thus allows the rest of the troops to get closer without being fired at (or not by the whole army at least). Mordrak + joined librarian shenanigans are fun too

The Apothecary would be useful if you're running Draigowing, where you'll likely be running not much other than Paladins. In that case, since you'd have nothing else to take up small arms, it'll all target your Paladins as well. In that situation, an Apothecary would be immensly useful, effectively cutting the majority of ALL of your opponent's firepower in half.

But in most other cases, your opponents will end up using their small arms on units more vulnerable to it, saving their low AP high strength weaponry for the Paladins.

Basically, before you spend 75 points an Apothecary, look at your list and ask yourself: Will my opponent shoot at this unit with things that it will get it's FNP save against? Or will they opt to use those weapons where they are actually effective?

yeah pretty much what I thought.

Fafnir wrote:Skulltaker would eat Crowe alive.

And then also die: Heroic Sacrifice.