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It seems pretty straightforward, but I'm having a hard time believing it's actually that good, so I just want to clarifiy.

If I decide not to use a psychic power and instead activate the 'instant death' ability of a squad's force weapon... than assuming I past the test, the ENTIRE SQUAD deals out instant death?

Is that really it?

Doesn't totally wreck Nobz (and other multi-wound squads)?

I've only seen the leaked dex, but the Brotherhood of Psykers rule states that only ONE power may be used per turn. Given that a single model's force weapon counts as "one power" I think only one model gets to do it. If there are indeed multiple Force Weapons (the classification, not the name, as NFW use to just be power weapons) it seems like they're just there so you consistently get Force Weapon attacks should the champion be killed.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:I've only seen the leaked dex, but the Brotherhood of Psykers rule states that only ONE power may be used per turn. Given that a single model's force weapon counts as "one power" I think only one model gets to do it. If there are indeed multiple Force Weapons (the classification, not the name, as NFW use to just be power weapons) it seems like they're just there so you consistently get Force Weapon attacks should the champion be killed.

Nope the final dex works indeed like stated by the OP.
You take ONE test. If passed, all the nemesis weapons that inflict unsaved wounds inflict Instant Death as well. Otherwise none do. If you get perils, only the "sergeant" in the unit suffers the hit, or one random model is the sergeant is dead already.

Wow. The GKs got their Cake and got to eat it too. Too bad for me though, none of my friends run multi-wound units =(

Well it means anyway that they all use power weapons as is. Bad news for MEQ however you look at it... Less so for hordes, even though you deny even that 4+ or 5+ save, but what's a death or more in a bunch of 30 guys?

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:(the classification, not the name, as NFW use to just be power weapons

This is kinda true, but not entirely in the Grand Master's case.

Their classification changed based on the unit wielding them.
There was even a handy little table on page 18 of the DH codex:
Grey Knight--Strength bonus+2, not a power or force weapon.
Justicar, Terminator, and Brother-Captain--Strength bonus +2, power weapon, but not a Force weapon.
Grand Master had all the stats of the above, but his weapon was also a Force weapon.

Just sayin'.

As for what it is in the new book, definitely intriguing. Almost makes me want to run a Knightwing rather than DW.

Yep, they do indeed work this way.

It makes them much better against most multi-wound models and against anything with a 2+ or 3+ save compared to the old GK trooper having an extra attack and being S6. The catch is that they'll have a much harder time than before in CC with hordes.

Ironically, the change to NFWs makes the basic PA GK trooper significantly worse against demons.

GeckoOBac wrote:Well it means anyway that they all use power weapons as is. Bad news for MEQ however you look at it... Less so for hordes, even though you deny even that 4+ or 5+ save, but what's a death or more in a bunch of 30 guys?

The problem is that Purifiers (w/ the extra cheap Halberds) can take everything on in combat. You start with 2A base then

Muti-wound models?: Eat my I6 Force Halberd

Powerful, but only one wound? Eat my I6 and S5 Power Attacks

Horde units?: Eat my Cleansing Flame (psy power that hits all models in the enemy units in close combat with a wound on a 4+), then eat my I6 attacks, then see if there is anyone left to attack.



Luckily they still die to shooting.

Anavrin wrote:Ironically, the change to NFWs makes the basic PA GK trooper significantly worse against demons.

Until you realize that they can ID models with EW...

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Until you realize that they can ID models with EW...

Where does it say this? Is this just another "removed from play" thing?

Brother SRM wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Until you realize that they can ID models with EW...

Where does it say this? Is this just another "removed from play" thing?

Yep. Nemesis Force Weapons that wound models who are immune to Instand Death forces them to take a Ld test. If they fail, they vanish with a poof.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Until you realize that they can ID models with EW...

Until you realize that anything worth ID'ing that way almost certainly has leadership 10, making it a 1/12 chance of being removed. And everything else typically only has 1 wound anyway.

Anavrin wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Until you realize that they can ID models with EW...

Until you realize that anything worth ID'ing that way almost certainly has leadership 10, making it a 1/12 chance of being removed. And everything else typically only has 1 wound anyway.

Until you realize that there, IIRC, is this thingie that lowers the leadership of daemons. If there's no such thing I'm obviously wrong, but I could've sworn I saw something like that. Besides, what with hammerhand, they'll still wound against T4 or lower most of the time, and now they actually have a chance of killing the big ones just like that...

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Until you realize that there, IIRC, is this thingie that lowers the leadership of daemons. If there's no such thing I'm obviously wrong, but I could've sworn I saw something like that. Besides, what with hammerhand, they'll still wound against T4 or lower most of the time, and now they actually have a chance of killing the big ones just like that...

I don't think there's anything like that... there's stuff that makes you test on a lower leadership for psychic powers targeting GK's. I could be wrong though, and if there is then yes it becomes much nastier.

Kanluwen wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:(the classification, not the name, as NFW use to just be power weapons

This is kinda true, but not entirely in the Grand Master's case.

Their classification changed based on the unit wielding them.
There was even a handy little table on page 18 of the DH codex:
Grey Knight--Strength bonus+2, not a power or force weapon.
Justicar, Terminator, and Brother-Captain--Strength bonus +2, power weapon, but not a Force weapon.
Grand Master had all the stats of the above, but his weapon was also a Force weapon.

Just sayin'.

As for what it is in the new book, definitely intriguing. Almost makes me want to run a Knightwing rather than DW.

The Grand Master does indeed have a Force Weapon. However it's still not a normal force weapon, due to the strength bonus. Thanks for the clarification.

Ok let's try to avoid mixing old and new codex

The nfw in the new codex are:
- All force weapons with a single test per unit
- They are TRUE force weapons, meaning that even when not active they count as power weapons
- They "kill outright" daemons and psykers, ignoring EW and that's WITHOUT activating the force weapon.
- All NFW have special characteristics, as follows:
NF Sword grants +1 invulnerable save in CC to models that already have an invulnerable save
NF Halberd grants +2 initiative
NF DaemonHammer is a force thunder hammer (double str, initiative 1, hits in initiative order for DK)
NF falchions grant +1 attack (some argue that since they are 2 ccw, it's +1 from the bonus and +1 for the pair, so total +2)
NF warding stave grants a 2++ in cc.
N doomfists work like DCCW, so double str, +1 attack in in pair.
N greatsword (DK only) lets you reroll ALL to hit, to wound and armor penetration rolls in CC

Note that while they don't explicitly say "force", doomfists and greatsword still ARE nemesis force weapons.

That said... There are no longer things that lower the leadership of daemons, but...
strike squads and interceptor squads have a power that make DS automatically mishap for a whole game turn in a 12" bubble around them
librarian and DK (can) get a power that makes all the daemonic gifts in an unit in an assault (either player's turn) stop working.
And, finally, every single non-vehicle GK unit except the DK get grenades that reduce daemons and psykers to initiative 1.
Finally, all GKs get preferred enemy: daemons, but that much was known I guess.

Somewhere a flock of birds is going Cheep Cheep Cheep. Thank god I actually have a force of Grey Knights, otherwise I'd be seriously scared at all that crap (A halberd granting +2 Initiative is scary). The Daemonhammer seems like overkill though, at S8 you're already going to ID something just by inflicting a wound.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Somewhere a flock of birds is going Cheep Cheep Cheep. Thank god I actually have a force of Grey Knights, otherwise I'd be seriously scared at all that crap (A halberd granting +2 Initiative is scary). The Daemonhammer seems like overkill though, at S8 you're already going to ID something just by inflicting a wound.

actually hammerhand is counted before the daemon hammer so you're looking potentially at a str 10 thunder hammer...

Don't you just love how much dakka it contains? you can potentially instant kill a model in 3 different ways! double strength to toughness, force weapon and daemonbane!

is the sword definately +1 to invuns while in CC? i thought it was just on everything

Alphacerberus wrote:is the sword definately +1 to invuns while in CC? i thought it was just on everything

Yep confirmed. Unfortunately grey knights are quite lacking invuln saves from shooting, having no access to even the basic storm shield (which, while I can understand from a balancing standpoint, makes absolutely no friggin sense... They get the best of the best as far as equipment goes... But no SS? This thing alone makes the terminators and paladins kinda useless in my eyes =/)

GeckoOBac wrote:

Alphacerberus wrote:is the sword definately +1 to invuns while in CC? i thought it was just on everything

Yep confirmed. Unfortunately grey knights are quite lacking invuln saves from shooting, having no access to even the basic storm shield (which, while I can understand from a balancing standpoint, makes absolutely no friggin sense... They get the best of the best as far as equipment goes... But no SS? This thing alone makes the terminators and paladins kinda useless in my eyes =/)

there goes my grandmaster with a free 3++ xD looks like halbeards all the way!

Does the Crusader still come with a Stormshield? if so it'd be hilarious how a lowly servant of an Inquisitor gets it (as standard no less), but not the Grey Knights.

@ Gecko: My skulltaker is constantly weeping as he preps his bum for the impending anal raping.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Does the Crusader still come with a Stormshield? if so it'd be hilarious how a lowly servant of an Inquisitor gets it (as standard no less), but not the Grey Knights.

@ Gecko: My skulltaker is constantly weeping as he preps his bum for the impending anal raping.

id like to see crowe VS skulltaker since there both in each realm at swordsmanship xD end up being a eternal duel that never ends

Either Crowe shoves that rending sword up Skulltaker's rear in the first round of combat, or Skulltaker ID's Crowe's ass back to the depths of titan's crypts. Either way combat isnt going to last more than a single turn.

Skulltaker would eat Crowe alive.

How come every thread about Grey Knights is one about how powerful they are?

Here is the numbers since everyone is long on fears but short on facts.

Grey Knights vs. Nob bikers
Grey knights have one attack each at WS 4 and strength 4 when they use their force weapons to ID the Nobs. So that means that 10 Grey Knights have 11 attacks of those a mighty 5.5 will hit. Biker Nobs are toughness 5 so they are doing 1.8 wounds. So you are killing 2 models before the power klaws wipe out your Grey Knight squad. If they are not on bikes then you will kill 2.7 Nobs. Of course that does not factor in Cybork bodies which I have always seen on Nob squads so with them you would kill 1.2 Biker Nobs and 1.8 Nobs. So if you think that is the death of Nobs, I do not know what to tell you.

Grey Knights vs. Marines
Since everyone is comparing Grey Knights to Marines, let’s see how the power weapons do against marines. Standing still against MEQs they do 3.6 wounds with Hammerhand and 2.75 without. It is a nice amount of damage, but hardly earth shattering since most assault units can do far better than that. On a point-for-point basis you will find that Grey Hunters will do about the same amount of damage.

Blackmoor wrote:
Grey Knights vs. Nob bikers
Grey knights have one attack each at WS 4 and strength 4 when they use their force weapons to ID the Nobs. So that means that 10 Grey Knights have 11 attacks of those a mighty 5.5 will hit. Biker Nobs are toughness 5 so they are doing 1.8 wounds. So you are killing 2 models before the power klaws wipe out your Grey Knight squad. If they are not on bikes then you will kill 2.7 Nobs. Of course that does not factor in Cybork bodies which I have always seen on Nob squads so with them you would kill 1.2 Biker Nobs and 1.8 Nobs. So if you think that is the death of Nobs, I do not know what to tell you.

Why would you send a lowly strike squad to take out a unit of Nob Bikers?

Fafnir wrote:
Why would you send a lowly strike squad to take out a unit of Nob Bikers?

It was a response to the OP assertion of:

Tarkand wrote:
Doesn't totally wreck Nobz (and other multi-wound squads)?

And you do not go after Nob Bikers, they come for you. It is an illustration that the Force weapon at WS 4, Strength 4, with 1 attack will not be the end of Nobz.

Note: What really kills Nobz is Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield Terminators.

Blackmoor wrote:

Fafnir wrote:
Why would you send a lowly strike squad to take out a unit of Nob Bikers?

It was a response to the OP assertion of:

Tarkand wrote:
Doesn't totally wreck Nobz (and other multi-wound squads)?

And you do not go after Nob Bikers, they come for you. It is an illustration that the Force weapon at WS 4, Strength 4, with 1 attack will not be the end of Nobz.

Note: What really kills Nobz is Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield Terminators.

I have a feeling that the Nemesis Daemonhammer terminators will put a fair sized dent in them as well...

or thunder hammer standard squads... Perhaps thunder hammer interceptor squads that can maneuver enough to be able to assault the bikes.