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Generally speaking I disagree with those that say we only 'need' one Marine Codex, or even those that go so far as to say we only need a Codex Marine, Chaos Marine and (of all things) a Grey Knight Codex. Like it or lump it, the Space Wolves are different enough to earn their own Codex. They're not like the Blood Angels and Dark Angels where most of the differences are superficial - they have a completely different structure (and if we're going on history, Space Wolves were the first army to ever get a Codex, back at the start of 2nd Ed - Codex Marines, via Codes: Ultramarines, was the fourth release for that edition, after SW, Eldar and Orks). Even the Black Templars are more different to the Ultras than BA's/DA's and saying that their 'only real difference' is how they use Scouts is quite disingenuous. And, if anything, and discounting the very silly Henchman nonsense, the GK Codex has actually gone out its way to make the Grey Knights more like a Codex Chapter (WAAAAAAAARRRRRD!!!!!! ).

So in reference to the OP, the Blood Angels and Dark Angels could very easily be summed up with a quick modification of the FOC and maybe a couple of extra units (DA's Get: Ravenwing Bikers + Deathwing Terminators; BA's Get: Death Company + Death Company Dreads + Sanguinary High Priests) and if they had wanted to Blood Angels could have been a single Special Character in the Marine Codex that replaced Combat Tactics with Furious Charge and made Assault Marines Troops (but we would have heard endless whining about that, probably from the same people who told me to just use 'Counts As' with Coteaz, which would have been deliciously ironic). But that doesn't make much money - so more Codices and more shoehorned new units arrived (Sang Guard, Chibi-Hawk, etc.).

Kanluwen wrote:The 3.5 Chaos Codex was also huge

Because of... ?

Kanluwen wrote:...unwieldy...

Why whose standards exactly?

Kanluwen wrote:... and open to such absurd abuses that it was hilarious.

Like... every other Codex.

And nothing you've said makes MechaEmperor7000 wrong when he says that the "3.5 Chaos Codex showed that it was entirely possible to do different [legions] in a single book."

Kanluwen wrote:... they went from being something unique and got genericized. Same thing's happening to the Deathwatch via FFG.

Uhh... what?

Kanluwen wrote:As for the organization...they've gone from what they were, which was kind of an 'ad-hoc organization' to being a full, standing force equivalent to a Chapter.

That's all true, except for the part where it isn't.

They haven't gone from 'Ad-Hoc' to 'Standing Chapter'. They have a significant force within the Jericho Reach (Deathwatch's setting), and there are certain areas that require more than just a Kill-Team to police, but they are far, far, far, far, far from being a 'standing force equivalent to a Chapter'. They form non-Codex bound Kill-Teams of a few Marines for standard missions, a then occasionally bring in larger forces that are stated to be the equivalent of Marine Companies. It's not like they have standing Companies just sitting around with defined Captains and a 'Chapter Master'. They differ across the galaxy.

No Jervisification has been done to them, so get'cha damned facts straight Kan.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Keeping in mind you said that the DA book was released before the current SM book, here are a few:

Mix squad Terminators, especially LC termies who could take Cyclone launchers and still fire them.

With a unit restriction of 5, one heavy weapon, and requiring a special character(who was, however, undercosted in most forms) to be fielded as Troops.
The Cyclone Launcher part is also contextually sensitive. The DA Cyclones were 1 shot less, in both modes.

Bikers in units and as troops.

"Bikers in units" was nothing new.
They also are only Troops with Sammael in charge. More on him in a second...

Plasma cannon jetbike

Which was the only reasonable way to field Sammael, and could only be fielded with Sammael.

Biker Command Squads and Terminator Command squads with actual Command Squad options.

Not sure how this is overpowered. Especially considering that the Narthecium in the DA book doesn't grant FNP.

It's important to remember, however, that the CML and Narthecium have both been FAQ'd to be in line with the standard Codex. But that was only in the current climate, where DA had been underperforming.

Bear in mind, this was the book that was actually during the period where GW was actively dumbing things down too. And I didnt even mention the other stuff, like grenades as standard and cheap rhinos, because those (later) became standard.

Which is kind of the point. Even when Dark Angels was 'new' it wasn't really 'frightening'.

The "actively dumbing things down" isn't entirely true though. That's a misnomer.
They tried to streamline things, yes. And then seemingly gave up.

Vaktathi wrote:... and how, as a result of the Righteous Fury mechanic

Elaborate.

Vaktathi wrote:Looking at the original DH Apocyrpha for Space Marines versus the Deathwatch Space Marines, the Bolters are just ridiculous.

That Space Marine Apocyrpha thing was fan made. The first instance of a Space Marine in an official 40K RPG product was in Purge the Unclean where his Bolt Pistol did the same damage as Deathwatch Bolt Pistols do now.

And it's not just Bolters. It's all Bolt weapons in Deathwatch make other weapons (outside of Krak Missiles, Lascannons and Multi-Meltas) utterly pointless. There's often no reason to take anything outside of a Heavy Bolter in that game. It will eat anything in front of it for breakfast. Only if you're fighting tanks do you need something bigger.

My friend actively curses my DW command squad of being hax because of the absurd amount of attacks it can put out. I will croak at the Biker Units though, but Biker Combat Squads was pretty badass. They also, at the time, Teleport Homers and Fearless for a meager 3 point increase, on top of the other perks they had for being one of the "new" generation Marine Dexes. However the Plasma cannon on a jetbike with a BS 5 character (back when only Ordinance and Barrage scattered) is anything but reasonable. If it wasnt for the -Wing armies, then the DA dex would have been a reprint of the existing Marine dex at the time, with a few fearless units.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Generally speaking I disagree with those that say we only 'need' one Marine Codex, or even those that go so far as to say we only need a Codex Marine, Chaos Marine and (of all things) a Grey Knight Codex. Like it or lump it, the Space Wolves are different enough to earn their own Codex. They're not like the Blood Angels and Dark Angels where most of the differences are superficial - they have a completely different structure (and if we're going on history, Space Wolves were the first army to ever get a Codex, back at the start of 2nd Ed - Codex Marines, via Codes: Ultramarines, was the fourth release for that edition, after SW, Eldar and Orks). Even the Black Templars are more different to the Ultras than BA's/DA's and saying that their 'only real difference' is how they use Scouts is quite disingenuous. And, if anything, and discounting the very silly Henchman nonsense, the GK Codex has actually gone out its way to make the Grey Knights more like a Codex Chapter (WAAAAAAAARRRRRD!!!!!! ).

So in reference to the OP, the Blood Angels and Dark Angels could very easily be summed up with a quick modification of the FOC and maybe a couple of extra units (DA's Get: Ravenwing Bikers + Deathwing Terminators; BA's Get: Death Company + Death Company Dreads + Sanguinary High Priests) and if they had wanted to Blood Angels could have been a single Special Character in the Marine Codex that replaced Combat Tactics with Furious Charge and made Assault Marines Troops (but we would have heard endless whining about that, probably from the same people who told me to just use 'Counts As' with Coteaz, which would have been deliciously ironic). But that doesn't make much money - so more Codices and more shoehorned new units arrived (Sang Guard, Chibi-Hawk, etc.).

I don't necessarily think that the "shoehorned new units arrival" is true.
Dark Angels, Black Templars, and Space Wolves all were produced with very little "shoehorned new units".

It wasn't until Blood Angels and now Grey Knights that we've seen that garbage.

If new units are produced/introduced in a logical progression(see: Tau Empire, Tyranids, and Space Wolves)--there's really not an issue. But the Stormraven, Dreadknight, and Jokaero are all examples of "shoehorning".

Kanluwen wrote:The 3.5 Chaos Codex was also huge

Because of... ?

Supposedly, according to Andy Chambers+Alessio Cavatore at least, the wargear section. Remember that it was one of the biggest army books they had until some of the more recent ones.

Kanluwen wrote:...unwieldy...

Why whose standards exactly?

It just felt like they were trying to do too many things at once. They put in a bunch of overarching, grand themes--and never really stuck with or finished any of them. At least that's how it felt to me.

Kanluwen wrote:... and open to such absurd abuses that it was hilarious.

Like... every other Codex.

And nothing you've said makes MechaEmperor7000 wrong when he says that the "3.5 Chaos Codex showed that it was entirely possible to do different [legions] in a single book."

Probably because I wasn't trying to, at all. It's entirely possible to do different Legions in a single book, when they've got a basic framework that is shared amongst them all. That's what was good about using the Black Legion as a basis: everything possible could be found within that army.

Kanluwen wrote:... they went from being something unique and got genericized. Same thing's happening to the Deathwatch via FFG.

Uhh... what?

Kanluwen wrote:As for the organization...they've gone from what they were, which was kind of an 'ad-hoc organization' to being a full, standing force equivalent to a Chapter.

That's all true, except for the part where it isn't.

They haven't gone from 'Ad-Hoc' to 'Standing Chapter'. They have a significant force within the Jericho Reach (Deathwatch's setting), and there are certain areas that require more than just a Kill-Team to police, but they are far, far, far, far, far from being a 'standing force equivalent to a Chapter'. They form non-Codex bound Kill-Teams of a few Marines for standard missions, a then occasionally bring in larger forces that are stated to be the equivalent of Marine Companies. It's not like they have standing Companies just sitting around with defined Captains and a 'Chapter Master'. They differ across the galaxy.

You're clearly not reading the same Deathwatch I am.
"Watch-Fortresses", governed by "Watch-Captains" are stationed all across the Jericho Reach--and there's mention of them being beyond the Jericho Reach as well.

No Jervisification has been done to them, so get'cha damned facts straight Kan.

Get over your Jervis hate, HB. Seriously--it's old, overdone, and it's not even correct. It was fething Alessio Cavatore whose brilliant idea the "genericizing" was. Jervis may have signed off on it, but so did the rest of the bloody design team.

And it's not just Bolters. It's all Bolt weapons in Deathwatch make other weapons (outside of Krak Missiles, Lascannons and Multi-Meltas) utterly pointless. There's often no reason to take anything outside of a Heavy Bolter in that game. It will eat anything in front of it for breakfast. Only if you're fighting tanks do you need something bigger.

Agreed. Of course, you can always opt to take something different to have some fun. Like the Atomizer Cannon, for example.

Kanluwen wrote:I don't necessarily think that the "shoehorned new units arrival" is true.
Dark Angels, Black Templars, and Space Wolves all were produced with very little "shoehorned new units".

BT's and Dark Angels no, the former because it was a 4th Ed Codex before all this stuff started to happen, and the latter because it was during the Bland Period. Wolves did get Thunderwolf Cavalry though...

Kanluwen wrote:It wasn't until Blood Angels and now Grey Knights that we've seen that garbage.

You're forgetting the non-Marine Codices that came out in the meantime.

Kanluwen wrote:Supposedly, according to Andy Chambers+Alessio Cavatore at least, the wargear section. Remember that it was one of the biggest army books they had until some of the more recent ones.

I don't see how that's a problem though. And besides, I care little for what Cavatore things, especially with his contribution to the current version of 'Chaos'.

Kanluwen wrote:It just felt like they were trying to do too many things at once. They put in a bunch of overarching, grand themes--and never really stuck with or finished any of them. At least that's how it felt to me.

You're in the minority here, that's for sure. But you should be used to that by now, no?

Kanluwen wrote:Probably because I wasn't trying to, at all. It's entirely possible to do different Legions in a single book, when they've got a basic framework that is shared amongst them all. That's what was good about using the Black Legion as a basis: everything possible could be found within that army.

Except any cult units beyond basic troopers and Daemons that aren't generic. But apart from that, yeah!

Kanluwen wrote:You're clearly not reading the same Deathwatch I am. "Watch-Fortresses", governed by "Watch-Captains" are stationed all across the Jericho Reach--and there's mention of them being beyond the Jericho Reach as well.

Clearly we aren't.

Watch-Captains aren't new. Watch-Fortresses aren't either. They even say that some of them are manned by a couple of Marines for decades at a time, and are there to watch things. For the most part they are armouries and listening posts, designed more to keep tabs on things and act as staging areas/resupply points should they be required. They're hardly Fortress Monasteries filled with standing armies of Companies of Marines and squadrons of tanks all ready to go at a moment's notice. Their heavy presence within the Jericho Reach is also two-fold:

1. It creates a justification for the game (DW has a heavy presence within the area Deathwatch is set in).
2. It's written into the background, with the Long Watch and the Eternal Vigil and the fact that they're watching and waiting for something, that something being unknown to the reader.

Kanluwen wrote:Get over your Jervis hate, HB. Seriously--it's old, overdone, and it's not even correct. It was fething Alessio Cavatore whose brilliant idea the "genericizing" was. Jervis may have signed off on it, but so did the rest of the bloody design team.

'Jervisification' is, if you'll forgive the pun, a generic term for when something interesting, vibrant and full of flavour and life is taken and turned into a boring mess of bland. It started with Jervis' Dark Angels Codex, and went from there. It's a verb now. Get used to it.

Kanluwen wrote:Agreed. Of course, you can always opt to take something different to have some fun. Like the Atomizer Cannon, for example.

Doesn't solve the core problem with Bolters being the be-all and end-all of weapons in that game. Some might say that that's the point, given the game is about Marines, and that if their Bolters weren't so powerful you'd have squads of guys rocking around with Plasma Guns and Multi-Meltas and lots of other stuff that wouldn't be fitting with the theme of Marines... but feth that. The game stops being fun when the Heavy Bolter munches everything within 2-3 rounds, one-shotting the hardest bad guys you've put forward one after the other. They need a reduction in power, and given the chance I will make it so...

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:... and how, as a result of the Righteous Fury mechanic

Elaborate.

Where other weapons for instance may have a higher penetration, the basic Bolter often does as much or only slightly less, and with the Tearing mechanic plus multiple dice for damage, there are far more chances to get Righteous Fury. The bolter gets 2d10, able to roll 4 dice essentially picking the two highest, and gets an additional 5 damage with a penetration of 5. A plasma gun gets only a single D10, no multiple dice and picking highest, with a higher damage bonus of 9 and a penetration of 8. While the PG has higher pen and higher bonus damage, the Bolter isn't exactly terrible in either regard, and does way higher average dice damage with 4 potential dice to trigger Righteous Fury rather than just one.

So the Bolter is putting out roughly similar (if not higher) damage per shot compared with a Plasma Gun despite its lower pen and damage bonus because of its two damage dice and Tearing, then additionally also has the ability to fire more shots, and way higher chance of Righteous Fury on each shot.

And it's not just Bolters. It's all Bolt weapons in Deathwatch make other weapons (outside of Krak Missiles, Lascannons and Multi-Meltas) utterly pointless. There's often no reason to take anything outside of a Heavy Bolter in that game. It will eat anything in front of it for breakfast. Only if you're fighting tanks do you need something bigger.

Right, which is sorta a problem when the Bolter is more powerful weapon than a Plasma Gun.

I also find it kinda silly how they made it practically impossible, sans giving NPC's righteous Fury, for weapons like Autoguns and Lasguns to harm Space Marine player characters. I mean, yeah, they shouldn't exactly be easy to harm, but being able to inflict, at best, one point of damage if they roll max damage on a Power Armored character if they hit somewhere other than the body (which is entirely immune) is a wee bit silly. It's one thing to be armored enough to be highly resistant to small arms fire, it's another to be functionally immune to it.

All this said, we have gone waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyy off topic here so I'mma stop.

Vaktathi wrote:The bolter gets 2d10, able to roll 4 dice essentially picking the two highest...

4 dice? How are they getting 4?

I understand that one of the problems with Bolt weapons is their high chance for RF, but they don't roll 4 dice.

I also find it kinda silly how they made it practically impossible, sans giving NPC's righteous Fury, for weapons like Autoguns and Lasguns to harm Space Marine player characters.

Well that's what Hordes are for.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:I don't necessarily think that the "shoehorned new units arrival" is true.
Dark Angels, Black Templars, and Space Wolves all were produced with very little "shoehorned new units".

BT's and Dark Angels no, the former because it was a 4th Ed Codex before all this stuff started to happen, and the latter because it was during the Bland Period. Wolves did get Thunderwolf Cavalry though...

Which was okay in the execution, just the model released was poorly realized.

Kanluwen wrote:It wasn't until Blood Angels and now Grey Knights that we've seen that garbage.

You're forgetting the non-Marine Codices that came out in the meantime.

Kanluwen wrote:If new units are produced/introduced in a logical progression(see: Tau Empire, Tyranids, and Space Wolves)--there's really not an issue. But the Stormraven, Dreadknight, and Jokaero are all examples of "shoehorning".

No, I actually didn't

Kanluwen wrote:Supposedly, according to Andy Chambers+Alessio Cavatore at least, the wargear section. Remember that it was one of the biggest army books they had until some of the more recent ones.

I don't see how that's a problem though. And besides, I care little for what Cavatore thinks, especially with his contribution to the current version of 'Chaos'.

It wasn't a problem. It just made the book a bit unwieldy to work with for a beginner. Add in that many things had to be converted(Kai gun, anyone? ) and it made Chaos something that wasn't readily accessible to new players, unlike it is now.

And yeah. There's a reason I think that Cavatore should be called on his BS shenanigans more than he is.

Kanluwen wrote:It just felt like they were trying to do too many things at once. They put in a bunch of overarching, grand themes--and never really stuck with or finished any of them. At least that's how it felt to me.

You're in the minority here, that's for sure. But you should be used to that by now, no?

Kanluwen wrote:Probably because I wasn't trying to, at all. It's entirely possible to do different Legions in a single book, when they've got a basic framework that is shared amongst them all. That's what was good about using the Black Legion as a basis: everything possible could be found within that army.

Except any cult units beyond basic troopers and Daemons that aren't generic. But apart from that, yeah!

Not with Black Legion. The Thousand Sons, Death Guard, everything could fit in there.

With the current "Red Corsairs" book, that's when we've started to see "Generic EvilGuys #1-10, take to the field!".

Kanluwen wrote:You're clearly not reading the same Deathwatch I am. "Watch-Fortresses", governed by "Watch-Captains" are stationed all across the Jericho Reach--and there's mention of them being beyond the Jericho Reach as well.

Clearly we aren't.

Watch-Captains aren't new. Watch-Fortresses aren't either.

Haven't seen them in fluff before the DW RPG. Not even in C.S. Goto's wankery. I've still got the Index Astartes book with the Deathwatch rules+fluff sitting next to me, and the Captains were just called "Deathwatch Captains".

They even say that some of them are manned by a couple of Marines for decades at a time, and are there to watch things. For the most part they are armouries and listening posts, designed more to keep tabs on things and act as staging areas/resupply points should they be required. They're hardly Fortress Monasteries filled with standing armies of Companies of Marines and squadrons of tanks all ready to go at a moment's notice. Their heavy presence within the Jericho Reach is also two-fold:

Their mere existence, however, changes things. It's like that "Fortress of Redemption" we saw introduced with Planetstrike. All of a sudden, the Dark Angels now have redoubts all across the Imperium of Man--some forgotten, others not--but all well kept and totin' a huge freaking laser cannon.

1. It creates a justification for the game (DW has a heavy presence within the area Deathwatch is set in).
2. It's written into the background, with the Long Watch and the Eternal Vigil and the fact that they're watching and waiting for something, that something being unknown to the reader.

Not arguing the point about justification, because it is a good one. I don't know if you're taking my criticism of the Watch-Fortresses and Captains as being "Bah! I hate it! Whippersnappers! Off my fluff!". I like the fluff. Deathwatch had barely been fleshed out before, so there was definitely room to grow--and FFG's doing a good job so far.

Kanluwen wrote:Get over your Jervis hate, HB. Seriously--it's old, overdone, and it's not even correct. It was fething Alessio Cavatore whose brilliant idea the "genericizing" was. Jervis may have signed off on it, but so did the rest of the bloody design team.

'Jervisification' is, if you'll forgive the pun, a generic term for when something interesting, vibrant and full of flavour and life is taken and turned into a boring mess of bland. It started with Jervis' Dark Angels Codex, and went from there. It's a verb now. Get used to it.

And again, the blame can actually be laid at Cavatore's feet. It should be Alessiofication.

Kanluwen wrote:Agreed. Of course, you can always opt to take something different to have some fun. Like the Atomizer Cannon, for example.

Doesn't solve the core problem with Bolters being the be-all and end-all of weapons in that game. Some might say that that's the point, given the game is about Marines, and that if their Bolters weren't so powerful you'd have squads of guys rocking around with Plasma Guns and Multi-Meltas and lots of other stuff that wouldn't be fitting with the theme of Marines... but feth that. The game stops being fun when the Heavy Bolter munches everything within 2-3 rounds, one-shotting the hardest bad guys you've put forward one after the other. They need a reduction in power, and given the chance I will make it so...

Simple solution: less Renown gained from fights against nasties when the Devastator mows them down with the Heavy Bolter

H.B.M.C. wrote:

4 dice? How are they getting 4?

I understand that one of the problems with Bolt weapons is their high chance for RF, but they don't roll 4 dice.

Just looked over the DW book in the last couple mins here, apparently they changed Tearing a bit from the original Dark Heresy version, so they'd get 3 dice instead of 4. With the original Tearing it would work as such. You'd get 2d10 for damage. For each D10, you roll 2 and pick the highest for damage because of the Tearing characteristic.

They changed it so that you now simply roll an extra dice in addition to what you'd normally roll and drop whatever was lowest. A strong toning down, but still gives a basic Boltgun 3 dice to try it on.

Well that's what Hordes are for.

While I understand the mechanic and it has a certain elegance, it still feels overexaggerated.

I think things like 5 man squads with a heavy weapon, or identicle wargear having different rules (like cyclones having 1 shot, or FNP narcethium), or who/what counts as what FOC are not really differences between chapters but between the way certain things play into the rule set at the time. Most of the newer dex have done away with the "armory" page with a big shopping list for instance in favor of more restricted individual options within each squad entry as far as what upgrades are possible.

From a purely gaming perspective, the 'differences' between armies on this superficial level are likely to be readjusted as the creep churns ever onward. Occasionally some things fall through the cracks and wind up with advantages exploitable due to having outdated formats for the Codex (old DE was pretty nasty if you knew how to trick out the HQ). Other, like the recent DA faq that brought them up to speed, lead to resentment from players with other old Codex who didn't get a FAQ to fix them up to a competative level - retaining all their strengths and uniqueness, but catching up on all the things they lacked. (While you're at it, can you FAQ the cost for SM devastators too please GW because nobody understands that one. Even the BA and SW players who insist it's okay don't really have a good reason, just that 'the codex supposedly balances out all around' which nobody actually believes. SUre they put THAT much thought into playtesting that they were looking it the cost of Mephiston and thinking "I know we can give them cheaper devastator squads to make up for it". Yeah sure. My ass.) Assault Marines as troops? That's a simple FOC switch, that results in (at least on the tabletop) te Blood Angels apparently never fielding any Tactical marines. I would say if you wan't to play blood angels as an assault marine army have a chapter tactics that allows for more FA slots at the expense of some other slot. The list of minute changes that could be made within the same book is too long to bother with.

For all we know, the feel no pain bubble will become a standard (FNP does seem pretty widespread in newer codex) instead of only for a command squad. All Codex will could have an option for supercharged engines, librarian powers switch around such that the newest ones are game-breakers by the current meta and the older ones are kind of 'meh'.

All of the differences between DA and SM, or BA and SM can be emulated in the same way as the differences between any of the special character chapter tactics like Kahn or Shrike or Pedro. What do they do? They allow for a couple of slight variations in innate abilities and/or FOC. But really, is there much difference between a vanguard assaut squad and the blood angels equivalent with cute little wings? Between Deathwing terminators and other terminators? They toss in one or two special rules but so does including captain shrike. The differences between identical wargear with different rules is an unfortunate reality, since not every codex gets a friendly FAQ to tell them their stuff just got an upgrade. The difference between a squad base of 5 being allowed a pick from special weapons, and a requirement for 10 is really just a whim of the author, and doesn't IMO make one chater much different than another - just that one codex was witeen with a little more flexibility (hmm.. the newer ones! what a surprise!)

I really liked the design-a-chapter thing from the 3rd ed. codex much better than the required special character. Funny how busy Vulkan has been lately. It would be nice if SM players could make their chapter-of-choice without HAVING to include a specific unique character to make it that way. Other than that, I really think the only ones that truly need a separate codex from what could be called a "big blue book" are SW, CSM, and GK.

Vaktathi wrote:Just looked over the DW book in the last couple mins here, apparently they changed Tearing a bit from the original Dark Heresy version, so they'd get 3 dice instead of 4. With the original Tearing it would work as such. You'd get 2d10 for damage. For each D10, you roll 2 and pick the highest for damage because of the Tearing characteristic.

They changed it so that you now simply roll an extra dice in addition to what you'd normally roll and drop whatever was lowest. A strong toning down, but still gives a basic Boltgun 3 dice to try it on.

That's never the way it worked. The DH rulebook said that Tearing weapons roll 2 dice for damage, discarding the lowest. The FAQ then changed it to rolling one extra dice. I've never seen a wording to indicate that they rolled one extra dice for every original dice of damage.

The Kan wrote:... and the Captains were just called "Deathwatch Captains".

Semantics.

Moreover, the Deathwatch were easily one of the least fleshed out areas. Is it any wonder that a game about them chose to expand on certain areas and solidify others up until that point had been quite vague? Doesn't make them into a standing army though...

H.B.M.C. wrote:Moreover, the Deathwatch were easily one of the least fleshed out areas. Is it any wonder that a game about them chose to expand on certain areas and solidify others up until that point had been quite vague? Doesn't make them into a standing army though...

I didn't say it was a bad change, mind you. Just that it was a change.

Yeah, it sucks that you can't play SM chapters anymore other than SW, BT, DA, and BA. They should at least make Ravenguard with Jump Packs for troops, White Scars with bikes for troops, Salamanders with tons of flamer/melta options, and Iron Hands with...what would Iron Hands have?

more tech? higher strength? fast vidicators that scatter less? ... iron hands were the siege guys right? Preferred enemy, fortifications?