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The major problem with FNP lies with allowing more than one save per wound. There is nothing strategic about this extra save and it serves no purpose but to drag out games and make it needlessly hard to kill models. There are already cover saves, armor saves, and inv. saves but with those you have to choose one (assuming you get any at all). GW wanted another saving throw but they already had every base covered unless they simply allowed you to try again once you've failed the first time (which is exactly what FNP is - an extra chance). The problem is that it leads to situations like the one described by the OP. What is the point of randomly rolling dice if you basically get to try until you get what you want.

This is the same problem I have with, for example, master-crafted lightning claws (or other similar wargear). I've routinely watched an opponent roll a bunch of dice needing 3+ to hit, reroll the misses thereby hitting with every die, and then repeat the process with wounds. They effectively deal wounds equal to their number of attacks. Eldar Seer Councils suffer from the same problem (they never die due to re-rolls). So do Res Orb Necrons (they never die...more rerolls)...and so on. This is a common theme through out most if not all 40k armies not only marines (I hate marines as much as everyone here but its not their fault...this time...).

I understand GW has a balancing act to perform. They want to sell models and the best way to do this is to make them have cool abilities on the tabletop. But it sucks if a cool model's ability doesn't work when you want it to. So they increase the chances of it working (by adding rerolls and extra versions of the same ability as in FNP) until it becomes a near certainty. But where's the strategy in a war game wherein near every model does nearly everything you want it to do damn near all of the time?

loota boy wrote:Now, (and I think most people will agree with me here) I don't appreciate fnp being given out like candy, but it's far from ott.

This.

It seems like invul saves are way too common to me as well, and in a certain new codex - weapons that can defeat both are pretty standard. Coincidence?

What about BT armies that ALL get Preferred Enemy against "whoever they're fighting" for only 50 points?

Honestly, I think GW came up with FNP because of WBB. Can't have marines outshined by xenos.

Kevin949 wrote:What about BT armies that ALL get Preferred Enemy against "whoever they're fighting" for only 50 points?

Honestly, I think GW came up with FNP because of WBB. Can't have marines outshined by xenos.

The force is strong with this one..

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Riddick40k wrote:Its just like terminators with FNP, instead of losing a 40 point model with a 2+ save and a 3+ invul save to a pathetic lasgun he gets a 4+ chance to save his own skin, but then most of the time he'll never get the chance to use his FNP becuz whatever goes through his armour will go straight through FNP.

This is the truth for the majority of FNP units. The kind of fire that FNP-units are meant to soak up is the kind of fire that often isn't directed at them anyway. A plasma gun is going to kill a FNP Assault Terminator just as well as it would a regular Assault Terminator.

If anything, you're paying a big premium to give a model FNP that will probably be negated by whatever you shoot him with anyway. If your best option is rapidfire bolters or whatever into a squad, then you probably shouldn't expect to do much damage anyway.

This is a similar issue I had with the Paladins with an Apothecary: Unless your opponent is a complete newbie, there is no way you'll ever get that FnP save, since he will never whack the Paladins with anything less than S8 or AP2 (to try to instant death the buggers or ignore their armor, either of which also ignores FnP as well). FnP is only good on cheaper units, where it functions as a slightly better carapace armor save, or upgrades Power Armor into basically Artificer Armor.

I don't like FnP at all because I get killed by Daemon plague-thingys. They have a very high toughness, a save, and FNP it almost makes all of my small arms style weapons on the verge of useless. I can't imagine having to play against the FNP area that the Blood Angel priest gives off because I have never had to fight it, but that has to be pretty frustrating to hit, beat a high toughness, beat a good save, and still have only a 50% chance of having any effect at all. Perhaps it is my choice of army, but I don't see that many options for weapons that can beat it. Maybe those kinds of weapons are standard to be seen all over an army now, but in my few games, most things are bolters, shootas, lasguns, shurikens, basic close combat attacks, with a very much minority of high power guns or specialized squads laden with power weapons. Those things I thought are meant to be scary and few, not a common answer to an ability that looks like it is very easy to attain for the latest rules books.

Things that ignore armor are not common? Not in my experience. Have you ever played Plague Marines to see them destroyed in one turn of shooting from Long Fangs? lol

It's really not as bad as you think.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
This is a similar issue I had with the Paladins with an Apothecary: Unless your opponent is a complete newbie, there is no way you'll ever get that FnP save, since he will never whack the Paladins with anything less than S8 or AP2 (to try to instant death the buggers or ignore their armor, either of which also ignores FnP as well). FnP is only good on cheaper units, where it functions as a slightly better carapace armor save, or upgrades Power Armor into basically Artificer Armor.

Or, you know, they're playing against an army that doesn't have many options for AP 2+ or Str8+ weaponary *cough*necrons*cough*.

`I know they exist. I have seen Space Wolves and understand why everyone either hates them or thinks they are awesome depending on which side of the table they are standing too. What I mean is that the "basic infantry weapon" style of attack, which, at least ideally should be the most common, is very much at a disadvantage against an army where FNP is as common as a basic infantry weapon: S3/4 (maybe 5 but Tau are rare) AP no less than 4, you know like regular guns. When most of the army is equipped such, it is really bad if most of their targets have FNP. half again an already miniscule chance after all the other rolls have to be passed, and you have a next to nothing chance of accomplishing anything except with your 1/10 guys that packs a missile launcher or similar thing.

Kevin949 wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
This is a similar issue I had with the Paladins with an Apothecary: Unless your opponent is a complete newbie, there is no way you'll ever get that FnP save, since he will never whack the Paladins with anything less than S8 or AP2 (to try to instant death the buggers or ignore their armor, either of which also ignores FnP as well). FnP is only good on cheaper units, where it functions as a slightly better carapace armor save, or upgrades Power Armor into basically Artificer Armor.

Or, you know, they're playing against an army that doesn't have many options for AP 2+ or Str8+ weaponary *cough*necrons*cough*.

Monolith's Particle Whip, or Heavy Destroyers, or the C'tan, or Warscythe-equipped Lords, Tomb Spyders, Tomb Stalkers, etc.... At the cost of paladins with an Apothecary, a Necron Player can fully dedicate a whole squad of HDs to go kill the Paladins alone, and probably still have points left over to allocate somewhere else.

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
This is a similar issue I had with the Paladins with an Apothecary: Unless your opponent is a complete newbie, there is no way you'll ever get that FnP save, since he will never whack the Paladins with anything less than S8 or AP2 (to try to instant death the buggers or ignore their armor, either of which also ignores FnP as well). FnP is only good on cheaper units, where it functions as a slightly better carapace armor save, or upgrades Power Armor into basically Artificer Armor.

Or, you know, they're playing against an army that doesn't have many options for AP 2+ or Str8+ weaponry *cough*necrons*cough*.

Monolith's Particle Whip, or Heavy Destroyers, or the C'tan, or Warscythe-equipped Lords, Tomb Spyders, Tomb Stalkers, etc.... At the cost of paladins with an Apothecary, a Necron Player can fully dedicate a whole squad of HDs to go kill the Paladins alone, and probably still have points left over to allocate somewhere else.

Heavy D's and tomb spyders are a joke. Heavy D's are horribly expensive for an easy to obliterate squad. Tomb spyders with their WS 2 and 2 wounds, c'mon. The lords normal weapon is a power weapon so sure. Tomb stalkers are also expensive and only 1 model AND take up a very important heavy slot. C'tan are very expensive as well for 1 model. Pariahs as well, in CC, but they'll get toasted quicker than you can say "gank". And they're as expensive as the nightbringer for a full squad. That's the problem though, all the models that CAN take them out are either very low in numbers or very high in cost or both. Not to mention most of the time the FNP equipped models will be in a transport so everything stated previously for ranged combat is pretty much moot.

I wasn't saying that necrons didn't have anything, just that they don't have the options that other armies have. And most of the options they DO have are poor ones. I do love the tomb stalker but getting him in CC with power weapon equipped FNP bearing models is just a sacrifice. And pretty much you have to dedicate your entire armies fire to one unit at a time every round to take something out reliably. If you spread the love, you bring the pain to yourself.

Believe it or not, FnP was even more powerful in 4th Ed. (it wasn't affected by whether guns had AP1 or AP2).

In the current state of play, I consider the greater availability of very good invulnerable saves to be much more frustrating. A balanced army should have some tools to nullify FnP. Except for null-zone, there's pretty much nothing you can bring to make dealing with 3++ saves easy.

Bring back the Dread Axe!

Ahh... I was feeling left out.