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Ok so i have often seen several situations were a player very brilliantly outmanouvers another player laying done a perfect crossfire or multi assault. Supposively about to reap the rewards of thinking ahead and patience. The first player happily readies a bucket full of dice and lands dozens and dozens of hits. Then ofcourse it is a game of dice is wittled down to still a respectfull amount of wounds and reduced even further by the innevetable 3+ save. ofcourse this was the perfect situation for the first player so its still a butt load of saves that need to be mead and OMG he wipes the squad out barely, BUT theres the FnP and miracously only one or two actually die...well there goes the reward to planning things out ahead.

Well enough of this rant I thought of a rule change to this USR.

Why not keep the FnP rule as is but limit it to only one use per game?

Think about it it will make it so much more strategic. You can chose to use it during that first round of fire that MIGHT wittle down your squad or save it for when you are actually stuck in the thick of it. It would also allow for some cool and hopefully expensive equipment upgrades that might allow the unit with FnP to use it twice in a game maybe?

Um.. the long list of things that negate FnP are what already balances out FnP.

Really? NO really? Have you even read the rule? things that ignore armor wow what a long list.

Most army squads get only one heavy and one special weapon in a squad. mind you those still have to hit, wound and get passed a possible cover save. AND the game isnt played in a vacuum both players still have other armies so theres target priorities.

FnP is way to beneficial and needs some scaling back. I mean c'mon things that ignore 3+ armor arent tooo common.

I think you may need one of these...

If a unit can only use FNP once per game, then Tervigons would have to cast it on everyone else. FNP is irritating, but not in a "this breaks the game" sort of way. Are you running Necrons? Cuz if you're running any other army then you shouldn't have a problem getting ahold of a few AP1/2/3 or power weapons.

Well its only happened to me once, but I just saw a game that really made me mad at how it seems unbalanced.

I dont know maybe if someone can tell me a good argument as to why it aint too bad i will definately think it over. Dang reading over my post/reply it kinda does seem like im angry about it. I apologise for that. Meng i really have to post more so I can learn to communicate through post well anyway back on topic


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well no I dont run any army that has acces to FnP, well except orks but I dont use docs.
But lets change the example how about those tervigons pooping out like 20 gaunts AND giving them FnP I mean c'mon really? Seems OTT. Or another example a huge squad of nob bikers with a doc. 10 4+++ 2w models with 5T seems a bit OTT. My suggestion would also solve the OOP of these types of units too IMO
Wait i need to find out how tervigons work to see if its OTT. Because im complaining because im generally thinking about BA and Nob bikers being OTT with their FnP

I fail me FnP rolls, always, so like...

HiddenPower wrote:Well its only happened to me once, but I just saw a game that really made me mad at how it seems unbalanced.

I dont know maybe if someone can tell me a good argument as to why it aint too bad i will definately think it over. Dang reading over my post/reply it kinda does seem like im angry about it. I apologise for that. Meng i really have to post more so I can learn to communicate through post well anyway back on topic


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well no I dont run any army that has acces to FnP, well except orks but I dont use docs.
But lets change the example how about those tervigons pooping out like 20 gaunts AND giving them FnP I mean c'mon really? Seems OTT. Or another example a huge squad of nob bikers with a doc. 10 4+++ 2w models with 5T seems a bit OTT. My suggestion would also solve the OOP of these types of units too IMO
Wait i need to find out how tervigons work to see if its OTT. Because im complaining because im generally thinking about BA and Nob bikers being OTT with their FnP

Granted, FNP is becoming too common these days, but I don't think it's OTT. I love it with Tervigons because Gaunts are rather mediocre, but you can buff them up with so many special abilities if you're playing your list right to make them really, really deadly.

HiddenPower wrote:Ok so i have often seen several situations were a player very brilliantly outmanouvers another player laying done a perfect crossfire or multi assault. Supposively about to reap the rewards of thinking ahead and patience. The first player happily readies a bucket full of dice and lands dozens and dozens of hits. Then ofcourse it is a game of dice is wittled down to still a respectfull amount of wounds and reduced even further by the innevetable 3+ save. ofcourse this was the perfect situation for the first player so its still a butt load of saves that need to be mead and OMG he wipes the squad out barely, BUT theres the FnP and miracously only one or two actually die...well there goes the reward to planning things out ahead.

Well enough of this rant I thought of a rule change to this USR.

Why not keep the FnP rule as is but limit it to only one use per game?

Think about it it will make it so much more strategic. You can chose to use it during that first round of fire that MIGHT wittle down your squad or save it for when you are actually stuck in the thick of it. It would also allow for some cool and hopefully expensive equipment upgrades that might allow the unit with FnP to use it twice in a game maybe?

double strength negates it as well.

on marines it seems that they last forever, because they already have T4 and a 3+ save. But on guants, wyches, orkboys, and wracks its all they have. Its like saying your 3+ regular armor save is too good, why not make it once per game.

HiddenPower wrote:Really? NO really? Have you even read the rule? things that ignore armor wow what a long list.

Most army squads get only one heavy and one special weapon in a squad. mind you those still have to hit, wound and get passed a possible cover save. AND the game isnt played in a vacuum both players still have other armies so theres target priorities.

FnP is way to beneficial and needs some scaling back. I mean c'mon things that ignore 3+ armor arent tooo common.

Well let's see....All AP1/AP2 weapons. All power/force weapons. All MC's in close combat. All double toughness attacks (so typically str 8-10 attacks). Dangerous terrain tests. Anything that inflicts instant death (regardless if they have EW or not). Anything that removes from play (SAG, Deepstrike mishap, JoTWW, etc). I'm sure I'm forgetting more stuff. Every army has something that will deal with FNP units.

Honestly, I'd think you haven't played against necrons. If you hate FNP, you'd loathe WBB since it's even less restrictive on what negates it.

BTW, the armor save of the model does not matter to it getting FNP or not. So your 6+ armor save guys will STILL get FNP against AP 3/4/5/6/ weapons. And yes, even AP - weapons.

FNP is not OP. It's essentially an extra 4+ armour save, which people fail plenty of times.

Now, (and I think most people will agree with me here) I don't appreciate fnp being given out like candy, but it's far from ott.

i always fail my FNP saves on my DW termies... buff FNP.. but only for me.. give me a 4++++

Try playing some Wyches or Wracks that are out in the open during an opponents shooting phase... you will learn really fast that FnP is not overpowered. If you breathe on my wyches wrong, they die without that pain token for FnP, and if I have it, all you need is some mildly bad breath when you breath on them, and then they die......

Now, in CC, their 4++ along with the 4+ FnP makes them extremely durable....

Oh my god dude! I SOOOO wanna play you with the "Tally-man" list I just finished.

Galador wrote:Try playing some Wyches or Wracks that are out in the open during an opponents shooting phase... you will learn really fast that FnP is not overpowered. If you breathe on my wyches wrong, they die without that pain token for FnP, and if I have it, all you need is some mildly bad breath when you breath on them, and then they die......

Now, in CC, their 4++ along with the 4+ FnP makes them extremely durable....

Yeah, now that every army has entire units with FnP and my Tau can have one model....yes, one model with FnP.

You think your wyches and wracks have it bad? How about my firewarriors, you just have to give them a quasi-curious look and they fall over.

My friend plays Nurgle so I'm well familiar with FnP spam....of course I've got plasma rifles so it's not intolerable as long as I can work the JSJ.

At least your FW have a semi decent save.... 4+ is much better than a 6+.

agnosto wrote:

Galador wrote:Try playing some Wyches or Wracks that are out in the open during an opponents shooting phase... you will learn really fast that FnP is not overpowered. If you breathe on my wyches wrong, they die without that pain token for FnP, and if I have it, all you need is some mildly bad breath when you breath on them, and then they die......

Now, in CC, their 4++ along with the 4+ FnP makes them extremely durable....

Yeah, now that every army has entire units with FnP and my Tau can have one model....yes, one model with FnP.

You think your wyches and wracks have it bad? How about my firewarriors, you just have to give them a quasi-curious look and they fall over.

My friend plays Nurgle so I'm well familiar with FnP spam....of course I've got plasma rifles so it's not intolerable as long as I can work the JSJ.

Space Wolves, considered the best army in the game at the moment, have 0 models with FNP.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Space Wolves, considered the best army in the game at the moment, have 0 models with FNP.

Lone Wolves have both FNP and Eternal Warrior, IIRC.

DakkaDakka wrote:

Average FNP rolls extend the life of the squad 3 turns. The FNP player gains use of the squad for 3 extra turns on average.

FNP should change to +1 to the save roll, applicable to cover saves, armor saves, or invulnerable saves. You get 15% more suvivability, not 50%.

FNP sucks.

The amount of butthurt in this thread is astonishing.

FNP is pretty prevalent these days, but it's by no means broken. Especially on DE, it's often the only thing that makes squads worthwhile (giving the opponent a good incentive to weaken them early on).

Sure, it makes marines tough to kill, but that's the whole point of FNP MEQs.

loota boy wrote:Now, (and I think most people will agree with me here) I don't appreciate fnp being given out like candy, but it's far from ott.

Agreed. Its not even close to game breaking. My Rokkit spam builds dont even know what it feels like to have someone roll a FNP roll. Sounds like you either A. Had someone abuse/cheat on the rule or B. you just had an unlucky FNP session. That does happen

Yep, FnP is probably one of the least broken things out there (JotWW, Blood talons, Swarmlord, GK codex).

Its good, and is this editions USR favourite, so is dished out like sweets, but every edition always suffers from some sort of USR over-use. However it is far from broken, YES you get an extra save, but you don't really get to use it that often, I mean, a squad of nobz gets to use it against small-arms fire, but then again in against, say, a guard list, your opponent is going to be dropping templates on those nobz like they are going out of fashion.

@OP: You say you saw a game (I'm assuming a single instance) which made you feel it was broken, perhaps you could describe it to us? that way we may better guage your opinion based on the facts you possess.

Bennowar wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Space Wolves, considered the best army in the game at the moment, have 0 models with FNP.

Lone Wolves have both FNP and Eternal Warrior, IIRC.

Ah ok you're right, I stand corrected. Still, that's usually 1 unit in the army, max.

HiddenPower wrote:Ok so i have often seen several situations were a player very brilliantly outmanouvers another player laying done a perfect crossfire or multi assault. Supposively about to reap the rewards of thinking ahead and patience. The first player happily readies a bucket full of dice and lands dozens and dozens of hits. Then ofcourse it is a game of dice is wittled down to still a respectfull amount of wounds and reduced even further by the innevetable 3+ save. ofcourse this was the perfect situation for the first player so its still a butt load of saves that need to be mead and OMG he wipes the squad out barely, BUT theres the FnP and miracously only one or two actually die...well there goes the reward to planning things out ahead.

Not to sound mean but the brilliant player simply forgot to factor in FNP. If you plan ahead for FNP and use the correct units its not a big deal.

You need to know what units you have that can take out the opponents. Don't stroll into CC with FNP marines unless you know the odds are good, and likewise dont throw 20-30 shots of AP4+ weapons at them.

agnosto wrote:

Galador wrote:Try playing some Wyches or Wracks that are out in the open during an opponents shooting phase... you will learn really fast that FnP is not overpowered. If you breathe on my wyches wrong, they die without that pain token for FnP, and if I have it, all you need is some mildly bad breath when you breath on them, and then they die......

Now, in CC, their 4++ along with the 4+ FnP makes them extremely durable....

Yeah, now that every army has entire units with FnP and my Tau can have one model....yes, one model with FnP.

You think your wyches and wracks have it bad? How about my firewarriors, you just have to give them a quasi-curious look and they fall over.

My friend plays Nurgle so I'm well familiar with FnP spam....of course I've got plasma rifles so it's not intolerable as long as I can work the JSJ.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

agnosto wrote:

Galador wrote:Try playing some Wyches or Wracks that are out in the open during an opponents shooting phase... you will learn really fast that FnP is not overpowered. If you breathe on my wyches wrong, they die without that pain token for FnP, and if I have it, all you need is some mildly bad breath when you breath on them, and then they die......

Now, in CC, their 4++ along with the 4+ FnP makes them extremely durable....

Yeah, now that every army has entire units with FnP and my Tau can have one model....yes, one model with FnP.

You think your wyches and wracks have it bad? How about my firewarriors, you just have to give them a quasi-curious look and they fall over.

My friend plays Nurgle so I'm well familiar with FnP spam....of course I've got plasma rifles so it's not intolerable as long as I can work the JSJ.

Space Wolves, considered the best army in the game at the moment, have 0 models with FNP.

Bennowar wrote:

Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Space Wolves, considered the best army in the game at the moment, have 0 models with FNP.

Lone Wolves have both FNP and Eternal Warrior, IIRC.

Hey if you want to get technical about it, necrons don't have anything with FNP either. Technically.

Its just like terminators with FNP, instead of losing a 40 point model with a 2+ save and a 3+ invul save to a pathetic lasgun he gets a 4+ chance to save his own skin, but then most of the time he'll never get the chance to use his FNP becuz whatever goes through his armour will go straight through FNP.

If you think it's overpowered, let me tell you something. When my group just got together, we thought, for three or four games, that fnp was a 3+ save. And no-one complained once. And one of us plays a plaugemarine spam list.

Riddick40k wrote:Its just like terminators with FNP, instead of losing a 40 point model with a 2+ save and a 3+ invul save to a pathetic lasgun he gets a 4+ chance to save his own skin, but then most of the time he'll never get the chance to use his FNP becuz whatever goes through his armour will go straight through FNP.

This is the truth for the majority of FNP units. The kind of fire that FNP-units are meant to soak up is the kind of fire that often isn't directed at them anyway. A plasma gun is going to kill a FNP Assault Terminator just as well as it would a regular Assault Terminator.

If anything, you're paying a big premium to give a model FNP that will probably be negated by whatever you shoot him with anyway. If your best option is rapidfire bolters or whatever into a squad, then you probably shouldn't expect to do much damage anyway.