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General_Chaos wrote:

notabot187 wrote:Orks have had issues with assaults since the beginning of 5th, and the GK book really should put the nail in the coffin of the idea that orks are a all melee all the time army.

Anyone have a spare clue for Notabot? Seriously man I really don't believe you play this game?

My experience has proven him right, more than once. Just running forward and hoping not to get shot to pieces until you get into melee and then hoping the other guy doesn't cause too many bonus wounds because the boys are fearless is a losing strategy.

@General_Chaos: I agree with notabot187 on this subject. I run a shooty oriented ork list, and shoota boys are generally considered superior to non-mechanized choppa boys.

General_Chaos wrote:

notabot187 wrote:Orks have had issues with assaults since the beginning of 5th, and the GK book really should put the nail in the coffin of the idea that orks are a all melee all the time army.

Anyone have a spare clue for Notabot? Seriously man I really don't believe you play this game?

I'm going to have to jump on you for this one too because notabot is really on the ball about this. If you're really using only close combat to bring down transports and whittle away at squads you're gonna be in for a world of hurt when a crowe list shows up and you have to deal with 6 squads of purifiers that even if you get the charge on will put a serious dent into hordes of boyz in CC where they're supposedly good! Much less the serious amounts of dakka they'll be putting out at your units for the 2-3 turns of walking you'll have to be doing!

If you're looking at battle wagons as a delivery mechanism then you'll be in a much stronger position as your mobility should hopefully match theirs but it's still going to be a struggle using 20 boyz to take out even 5 man purifier squads, and if even 1 survives to assault another unit then you can sob a little as that lone marine will *poof* half of your unit before you even get to swing.

Return the favour with some good old orky purifying flame in the form of BW burnaz!

Heffling wrote:I think a shooty Kan Wall will do well against the new GK. I haven't read the codex, but Lootas always do well due to mass of fire. Kans aren't concerned with Purifiers as they don't have wounds. Rokkits make SM =(. Deffkoptas can still pop Chimeras or other transports.

I agree, which is why I like to spam rokkits anyways. I run a shooty/rokkit spam type list with some kans/dreds thrown in when I can. I dont think Ill be too worried about when I first play against GK. Yes, I think there are some pretty OP units and rules they have, but Im hoping that their smaller numbers really play into a weakness for them.

GK will still go down to mass rokkits/shoota fire, just like a normal SM will.

Heffling wrote:The issue with a Wazzdakka list versus GK is that you're slower than they are, and they for the most part all have PW, so you don't get saves in CC. Combined with at best mediocre shooting and a low model count, and to me it plays to GK strengths.

Now that I'm not at work, trying to avoid the boss's disapproval, as I i-Phone debate, let me re-address my thoughts about the Wazzdakka Biker list.

One, I wasn't suggesting that the bikerboys do a lot of assaulting, or assaulting without overwhelming superiority. By writing "you're slower than they are," I assume you mean their Initiative is much higher. No doubt.

Two, what I'm suggesting is a lot of firing at distance. Bikerboys can provide some good firing range; 12" of movement + 18" of TL Dakkagun range. Now, I'm not too familiar with the Grey Knights codex, although I know they can do some kind of teleport device that does something. Can the speed of the bikerboy keep its distance from the possibility of a Grey Knight assault? (Once again, I'm assuming that "you're slower" refers to initiative.)

Three, Orks do have poor BS, but TL dakkaguns do about kill two Space Marines for every five bikerboys firing on average (15 hits : 9 models -- 2 wounds : 3 hits -- 1 kill : 3 wounds). That's not too bad. Two groups of five bikerboys would about finish off a five man squad of Grey Knights, right?

Four, warbikes do protect themselves with a mobile cover. I imagine that Grey Knights have a lot of weapons that ignore cover saves? But if they are flame template dependent, you should be able to keep your bikerboys outside the range of that.

So, bikerboys + lootas + rokkit-spam warbuggies = victory over Grey Knights? I don't know, but here are some points I would like discussed, perhaps with applicable mathhamer.

notabot187 wrote:If you are playing a non wagon list with orks these day your only real option is to go as shooty as possible IMHO. Orks have had issues with assaults since the beginning of 5th, and the GK book really should put the nail in the coffin of the idea that orks are a all melee all the time army. They are really more of a balance between shooting and melee. Shoot the enemy into manageable bits (with some armys, really small bits) then charge the remainder.

Yeah, it's sad that it is so, sadder still how many games I had to loss to let it sink in. Low iniative, power armor saves, fearlessness all make the point-&-assault style futile. I attack vehicles from the safety of my boarding plank, either from my battlewagons, or, lately, of my trukk-spam.

GK troops (the PAGK variety) are more expensive than other units, but saying the army overall is expensive is a bit misleading. A Dread Knight is about 30 points less than a Carnifex iirc, and is so supierior to the carnifex that it's a travesty. Likewise, a GK Paladin costs the same points as a Nob with a PK, and does anyone even want to compare the value of a 6+ save, WS 4 model to a 2+/4++ (or 2+/5++ with Str 8) WS 5 model with a force weapon, multiple grenades, and psychic powers?

Having said that, yes, Orks need to try to deal with GK by shooting until they are at a manageable level.

I'm torn on the subject. I suppose I didn't get into 40K to play it like a medieval strategy game, but ork melee and charging forward was one of my favorite parts, and made me get into the army. Meh, I suppose i'll just play sluggas as "counts as" shootas.

gpfunk wrote:I'm torn on the subject. I suppose I didn't get into 40K to play it like a medieval strategy game, but ork melee and charging forward was one of my favorite parts, and made me get into the army. Meh, I suppose i'll just play sluggas as "counts as" shootas.

You could just glue some slootas on the backs of your choppaboy models.

You're slower does apply to movement speed. They have jump infantry that can catch and kill decent amounts of bikers, dakka gunz are worse than their guns and more effective at killing boyz than you are at killing them. Last but not least, biker mobs are too small to deal with 10-man squards of most grey knight units in assault as, they get to strike first and ignore armor, and some of them even bring decent amounts of attacks. In the end you lose to much of the bikers usual strengths to make them worthwhile. You're probably better off with storm boyz, and they aren't that great either, but at least cheaper.

thunderingjove wrote:

gpfunk wrote:I'm torn on the subject. I suppose I didn't get into 40K to play it like a medieval strategy game, but ork melee and charging forward was one of my favorite parts, and made me get into the army. Meh, I suppose i'll just play sluggas as "counts as" shootas.

You could just glue some slootas on the backs of your choppaboy models.

Ive suggested that more then a few times to people that went the AOBR route. Perfectly legal, as well as WYSIWYG for either type of boy. And whats easier then gluing a shoota on their back?



On a more personal note, Ive been complaining a bit about how uber the GK seem to be. Now Im not saying that they arnt, because you just cant argue about some of the rules and points costs (the carnifex comparison was a good one) Im a little curious to see how they do play out against my boyz. My brother is planning on buying the codex. He swears that hes only buying it for the read (which I believe is a load of BS) so this thread is really helping me with how to better handle them. Im not going to have to worry about facing dreadknights since he doesnt have anything close to one, but the rest would be pretty simple for him to counts as.
So thanks fellas, Im not saying Ill get a win out of our games to come, but at least I wont be going into a crap shoot and loosing in 2 turns.

The "You're slower" is referring to initiative and not to movement speed. At best, GK could match you for movement, but couldn't exceed.

Rough Mathhammer on 10 warbikers shooting at 5 PAGK:

20 shots, bs2 TL, Str5 vs T4, 3+ armor save:

20 * 5/9 * 2/3 * 1/3 = about 2.5 dead marines, on average. And that's for a minimum of 250 points of models shooting.

Now, versus shoota boys, in a 30 boyz mob with a pk/bp nob and 3 big shootas, assuming 18" away

26*2 shots, bs2, str4 vs t4, 3+ armor:
52 * 1/3 * 1/2 * 1/3 = 2.9 dead marines.
3*3 shots, bs2, str5 vs t4, 3+:
9 * 1/3 * 2/3 * 1/3 = .7 dead marines.

So that's a total 3.6 dead marines from a unit that is cheaper by 15 points.

Also, outside the realm of vs GK, how well will your list hold up against meltavet, hunterback, or other standard tournament armies?

I don't think snikrot and his kommando's will work well vs GK. The GK will be far enough from the table edge making their way towards your army as they dont have much long range fire and have great CC. Koptas will serve way better than kommandos for much cheaper.

the Kommandos also don't have the numbers to withstand the Gks attacks as they get to swing first(Falchions will rip you apart)

Jidmah wrote:You're slower does apply to movement speed. They have jump infantry that can catch and kill decent amounts of bikers[...]

Ah, of course. Space Marines have jump infantry. Question: How many units of jump infantry can they bring? Because with a Wazzdakka Bikerboy list, I'm suggesting talking between six and nine squads. One jump squad can only assault so much per turn.

Jidmah wrote:[...D]akka gunz are worse than their guns and more effective at killing boyz than you are at killing them.

Huh? Are you talking about Snazzguns with Blastas, or Kustom Mega Blastas? Those belong to Flashgits and meks, respectively. Bike TL Dakkaguns are R18' S5 AP4 Assault 3; they don't have the Gets Hot! special rule.

Jidmah wrote:Last but not least, biker mobs are too small to deal with 10-man squards of most grey knight units in assault as, they get to strike first and ignore armor, and some of them even bring decent amounts of attacks. In the end you lose to much of the bikers usual strengths to make them worthwhile. You're probably better off with storm boyz, and they aren't that great either, but at least cheaper.

Once again, I'm not suggesting initiating assaults without overwhelming superiority.

Heffling wrote:Rough Mathhammer on 10 warbikers shooting at 5 PAGK:

20 shots, bs2 TL, Str5 vs T4, 3+ armor save:

20 * 5/9 * 2/3 * 1/3 = about 2.5 dead marines, on average. And that's for a minimum of 250 points of models shooting.

Not quite, but close: Biker Dakkaguns fire 3 TL shots per model. Not to be too pedantic, but a little pedantic, the matthammer breaks out like this: 1 SM dies : 3 SMs wounded :: 2 SMs wounded : 3 SM hit :: 5 TL DK hit : 9 TL DK fired :: 3 DKs fired : 1 BB models present = 10 Space Marines die for every 27 Bikerboy models present (0.370). The above math puts us at better than one in three, and with the ten models you suggested above, that's almost 4 models per round of firing.

Heffling wrote:Now, versus shoota boys, in a 30 boyz mob with a pk/bp nob and 3 big shootas, assuming 18" away

26*2 shots, bs2, str4 vs t4, 3+ armor:
52 * 1/3 * 1/2 * 1/3 = 2.9 dead marines.
3*3 shots, bs2, str5 vs t4, 3+:
9 * 1/3 * 2/3 * 1/3 = .7 dead marines.

So that's a total 3.6 dead marines from a unit that is cheaper by 15 points.

You make a good point, and there's still some validity to what you say, even if the number of Space Marines dead is about the same. However, do Shootboys have the mobility or the mobile coversave or the close-combat armor save (applicable in other lists).

Heffling wrote:Also, outside the realm of vs GK, how well will your list hold up against meltavet, hunterback, or other standard tournament armies?

Orks have a hard time with these armies already. Footslagging doesn't help much, at least for me. Do meltas or rockets negate coversaves? Nope.

Heffling wrote:The "You're slower" is referring to initiative and not to movement speed. At best, GK could match you for movement, but couldn't exceed.

Rough Mathhammer on 10 warbikers shooting at 5 PAGK:

20 shots, bs2 TL, Str5 vs T4, 3+ armor save:

20 * 5/9 * 2/3 * 1/3 = about 2.5 dead marines, on average. And that's for a minimum of 250 points of models shooting.

Now, versus shoota boys, in a 30 boyz mob with a pk/bp nob and 3 big shootas, assuming 18" away

26*2 shots, bs2, str4 vs t4, 3+ armor:
52 * 1/3 * 1/2 * 1/3 = 2.9 dead marines.
3*3 shots, bs2, str5 vs t4, 3+:

Your math is flawed, Try doing it 10 warbikers at 30 shots using dakkaguns that are also twin linked. See what you get then.
9 * 1/3 * 2/3 * 1/3 = .7 dead marines.

So that's a total 3.6 dead marines from a unit that is cheaper by 15 points.

Also, outside the realm of vs GK, how well will your list hold up against meltavet, hunterback, or other standard tournament armies?

What happened, Jorden?

as stated earlier...Snikrot and his Kommandos will have no real good Use against GKs....Best IMHO would be a shooty kan wall army

You could just glue some slootas on the backs of your choppaboy models.
Ive suggested that more then a few times to people that went the AOBR route. Perfectly legal, as well as WYSIWYG for either type of boy. And whats easier then gluing a shoota on their back?

I like that idea. Do you guys know of a good resource to pick up 100 extra shootas?

matphat wrote:

You could just glue some slootas on the backs of your choppaboy models.
Ive suggested that more then a few times to people that went the AOBR route. Perfectly legal, as well as WYSIWYG for either type of boy. And whats easier then gluing a shoota on their back?

I like that idea. Do you guys know of a good resource to pick up 100 extra shootas?

eBay.

Heffling wrote:The "You're slower" is referring to initiative and not to movement speed. At best, GK could match you for movement, but couldn't exceed.

Rough Mathhammer on 10 warbikers shooting at 5 PAGK:

20 shots, bs2 TL, Str5 vs T4, 3+ armor save:

20 * 5/9 * 2/3 * 1/3 = about 2.5 dead marines, on average. And that's for a minimum of 250 points of models shooting.

Now, versus shoota boys, in a 30 boyz mob with a pk/bp nob and 3 big shootas, assuming 18" away

26*2 shots, bs2, str4 vs t4, 3+ armor:
52 * 1/3 * 1/2 * 1/3 = 2.9 dead marines.
3*3 shots, bs2, str5 vs t4, 3+:
9 * 1/3 * 2/3 * 1/3 = .7 dead marines.

So that's a total 3.6 dead marines from a unit that is cheaper by 15 points.

Also, outside the realm of vs GK, how well will your list hold up against meltavet, hunterback, or other standard tournament armies?

ok what i was trying to say is that your math is off somewhat. The bikers have dakkaguns that have 3 shot plus twin linked so that would be 10 bikes at 30 shots linked. Try it that way.

See my post above to the same corrective effect.

A DK will stop a battle wagon in its tracks, will it not?

Shunt, Smash with 5 str 10 attacks. KFF dont give an invulnerable in CC do they?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Orkykoolaid wrote:as stated earlier...Snikrot and his Kommandos will have no real good Use against GKs....Best IMHO would be a shooty kan wall army

Could work, never actually faced one myself.


Remember that every GK squad will have at least 1 daemonhammer in it. If I came up against a kan wall, my plan would be to shuntscout my interceptors, turn 1 move 12, burn the kans with my incinerators and str 5 storm bolters in the hope something happens, then assault with a hammerhand DH. 2 str 10 attacks isnt super reliable, but it isnt to crappy either.

Dreadknights will be relatively immune to kanwalls wont they?

Does Shunt avoid Deffrollas? If not, I'll see your 5 Str10 attacks and raise you d6 Str 10 attacks before you get to swing. Heck, if Monstrous Creatures are vulnurable to Tank Shokk, he'd also probably need to Death or Glory, giving him an extra d6 Str 10 attacks.

Anvildude wrote:Does Shunt avoid Deffrollas? If not, I'll see your 5 Str10 attacks and raise you d6 Str 10 attacks before you get to swing. Heck, if Monstrous Creatures are vulnurable to Tank Shokk, he'd also probably need to Death or Glory, giving him an extra d6 Str 10 attacks.

Well, in terms of reliability he is more likely to destroy you than the other way around is he not? I may be a bit confused as the dreadknight has wounds rather than an AV...

Anvildude wrote:Does Shunt avoid Deffrollas? If not, I'll see your 5 Str10 attacks and raise you d6 Str 10 attacks before you get to swing. Heck, if Monstrous Creatures are vulnurable to Tank Shokk, he'd also probably need to Death or Glory, giving him an extra d6 Str 10 attacks.

The deffrolla doesn't give the wagon a melee attack so the Dreadknight won't be getting tank shocked if it first turn assaults you and crushes your vehicle before you even get to make a move. Of the charge he'll be getting four strength ten attacks versus your juicy rear armor, you haven't moved yet so they all hit and they all pen meaning that he has good odds of ending your battle wagon before it even moves. Now, even if you do nail him with a deffrolla and he stands and takes the average of seven hits you have good odds of dealing about a single wound to him leaving him with three remaining wounds and your taking having a one in three chance of dying.

It will be a while before I can get a game against someone in Greece with Grey Knights, but I think the Kan wall should do pretty well.
It will be a bit of a change in strategy as melee should be avoided till as late as possible, and it will be the grey knights closing in instead of the other way round. Hopefully after they have waded throught Lootas, Shoota and Rokkit spam they will barely have enough left to assault the remaining Kans in which case the boys behind shout mess them up.
I am not sold on the Battlewagon idea as their main strength is delivering melee units fast into the enemy line. Now Grey Knights appear to be able to handle melee quite easily even on the receiving end of a charge and some of our scariest units like Nobz will be force weaponed to death.
Shooty seams to be the sollution however how much shooty can a Battlewagon list put out?

Well, there is the Loota-Battlewagon bunker build. I've used it to some effect, though it isn't very mobile in some degrees.

thunderingjove wrote:
Ah, of course. Space Marines have jump infantry. Question: How many units of jump infantry can they bring? Because with a Wazzdakka Bikerboy list, I'm suggesting talking between six and nine squads. One jump squad can only assault so much per turn.

Three of them, with close to nothing useful in that slot otherwise. Every squad will most likely wipe out a squad of bikers every turn. Also their might be dread knights going after your bikes, as they can be jump infantry too, with the possiblity of a first turn assault. If they aren't, they still have two weapon options that kill bikers easily. And this is assuming they don't bring any vehicles.

Huh? Are you talking about Snazzguns with Blastas, or Kustom Mega Blastas? Those belong to Flashgits and meks, respectively. Bike TL Dakkaguns are R18' S5 AP4 Assault 3; they don't have the Gets Hot! special rule.

Im talking about Grey Knight guns. Also Dakkaguns are DS5. If you can shoot at GK, they can shoot you, BS4 or even BS5 on dreads means that they hit more often than twin-linked B2, they can bring special weapons wither even more shots while Bikaz can't buy any useful upgrades, and 2+ armor saves means that much less of them will die than you 4+ boyz. Even if you manage to stay out of their assault range for the whole game, you'll lose the shootout.

Once again, I'm not suggesting initiating assaults without overwhelming superiority.

Someone here calculated that you roughly need 30 boyz to down a 10 man squad of 2+ Knights with a mix of helbards, flacions and a hammer, and the attacking unit still stays crippled . In bikers, thats about half your army.
Grey Knights is the army best at medium range shooting and assault with few expensive units. It is unwise to face them with few expensive units good at medium range shooting and ok at assault.

Not quite, but close: Biker Dakkaguns fire 3 TL shots per model. Not to be too pedantic, but a little pedantic, the matthammer breaks out like this: 1 SM dies : 3 SMs wounded :: 2 SMs wounded : 3 SM hit :: 5 TL DK hit : 9 TL DK fired :: 3 DKs fired : 1 BB models present = 10 Space Marines die for every 27 Bikerboy models present (0.370). The above math puts us at better than one in three, and with the ten models you suggested above, that's almost 4 models per round of firing.

So you need 755 points(assuming 2 nobz) to kill a single unit of purifiers or interceptors or a strike squad, costing no more than 300 points. Those 27 bikerboyz would be pretty bunched up, too, so it's not unlikely that a gk squard might get into flamer or even assault range.

You make a good point, and there's still some validity to what you say, even if the number of Space Marines dead is about the same. However, do Shootboys have the mobility or the mobile coversave or the close-combat armor save (applicable in other lists).

KFF and Kanz are a mobile cover save, you don't need mobility in a horde, because you already have units everywhere. Battleweagons to put them in are even better, and bring some mobility too. And if you divide a 130 point BW accross 15 boyz, they are still exactly half the price of warbikerz, with options for heavy weapons and 5 more boyz.

Heffling wrote:Also, outside the realm of vs GK, how well will your list hold up against meltavet, hunterback, or other standard tournament armies?

Orks have a hard time with these armies already. Footslagging doesn't help much, at least for me. Do meltas or rockets negate coversaves? Nope.

We are talking about tactics vs grey knights in this thread, so upgrade possibly good against another army are not of interest. I can even see them working against those armies, but against GK you're trying to beat them at their own game, and they are damn good at their game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Loota Battleweagons are terrible. Any shake/stun switches them all off, and when the BW explodes, it will kill a little less than 1/3 of the unit, and might even pin them. Simply put them in cover and spend the battle weagon's points on something useful.

I am wondering about the Flash Gitz though. So regular CC nobz aren't going to survive long, so you're going to need to go shooty. Gitz in a Trukk or BW can be used to great effect (that I've seen), and would still be fairly decent if it came down to a last-ditch assault. Add in Kaptain Badrukk (and maybe a painboy for those Gets Hot! rolls) you might have a decent bit of shootyness against them.

Another option would be Big Gunz, with Zzap or Kanon (maybe Lobbas? Do they have better range?) to back up Lootaz. Go all Tau on those bukkiteads.