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TutorialBoss wrote:First, people don't use regular power weapons a whole lot to start with (powerfists generally trump both power weapons and claws)

Second, the advantage is almost negligible. It's certainly not enough for most people to justify obtaining the bits for conversion.

Third, there is an argument for weight of attacks in that it is more likely to produce the statistical averages. Sometimes you want to count on that one hit getting through against that HQ you're locked up with.

There us quite a lott of debate over your first statement there Styles. A lott of people do not pay 25 points for 2 attacks with a fist.

Phototoxin wrote:I think that this is important to look at compared to a glaive encarmine for blood angels.. essentially a 2 handed (so no extra attack... just like when you're taking a lightning claw) but re-rolls to hit... if you can't hit you can't attempt to wound...

As long as you have a pistol, a Power Weapon is strictly better than a Glaive Encarmine. The PW gives you an extra attack all the time. The Glaive gives you an extra attack only when at least one of your attacks misses.

TutorialBoss wrote:First, people don't use regular power weapons a whole lot to start with (powerfists generally trump both power weapons and claws)

Second, the advantage is almost negligible. It's certainly not enough for most people to justify obtaining the bits for conversion.

Third, there is an argument for weight of attacks in that it is more likely to produce the statistical averages. Sometimes you want to count on that one hit getting through against that HQ you're locked up with.

It is true that a larger sample will tend to see a more average result. I don't think the advantage is negligible, as the LC is really much better at killing some stuff (like MCs) that a DoA list at least could have trouble killing. I do agree that the modelling difficulty and general preference towards a Power Fist are the main reasons why you don't see many LCs.

My 2 cents... the answer is to take a powerfist. Both the claw and the power weapon are useless in some situations, while the fist is never useless. And whenever the claw is much better than a power weapon, the fist is much better that both (T6+)

Also, something that was not mentioned is wound allocation. Since the direction of the thread seems to be about blood angels, lets use them as an example for a moment. Your BA assault squad, 4 regular guys and a pw/lc model charge their nemesis, the 5 man grey hunter squad with a melta. You have 12 attacks, 6 hits, 4 wounds with your regular guys. You have 4 attacks/2 hits/1.5 wounds with a pw and 3 attacks/1.5 hits/1.3 wounds with the claw. With either weapon, if you deal 2 wounds they can both go on the melta model, meaning you kill only 1 model. So the pw/lc is capped at 1 wound as long as you have the rest of your squad with you.

Now when looking at the pfist, which swings at a different init, you average 1.25 wounds with it, which seems lower than both the claw and the sword. HOWEVER, because of wound allocation reducing both the sword and claw down to 1 wound only on average, the fist deals .25 wounds more on average. No wound allocation sillyness need apply. Its 8% more cost for a 5 man squad to upgrade to a fist, but you gain 10% more unsaved wounds versus the standard 5 man grey hunter squad.

Plus, the fist is obviously always better versus vehicles, and always better versus t6+, and always better at killing all the multiwound models I can think of.

DevianID wrote:My 2 cents... the answer is to take a powerfist...
Plus, the fist is obviously always better versus vehicles, and always better versus t6+, and always better at killing all the multiwound models I can think of.

unless they have EW

Power weapons and Lightning Claws are the same, though with a Lightning Claw you have to have another one for an extra attack, whereas you can have a Power sword and get an extra attack with a pistol, so you have a bit of ranged effectiveness aswell

Kravox wrote:Power weapons and Lightning Claws are the same, though with a Lightning Claw you have to have another one for an extra attack, whereas you can have a Power sword and get an extra attack with a pistol, so you have a bit of ranged effectiveness aswell

I'm confused what you are trying to say. Lightning claws and power weapons are not the same exactly, lightning claws re-roll to wound, power weapons give an easy extra attack. The math hammer at the begging shows the odds for each of these scenarios.

the re roll to wound is useful, but Power weapons you can still have a pistol which means an extra attack and a bit of ranged ability

Kravox wrote:the re roll to wound is useful, but Power weapons you can still have a pistol which means an extra attack and a bit of ranged ability

You still get a pistol with the lightning claw, unless you pay for 2 lightning claws... so either you have an extra attack (same points), or you have an extra bit of ranged ability (for less points).

The point of the thread is that statistically the re-roll wounds does better than the additional attack from power weapons in many cases. The bolt pistol is included in both