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'Sons of Dorn' (Imperial Fists) clearly states that failed aspirants would become serfs or servitors, depending on their disposition and the needs of the chapter. During their training, there is at least one passage where an aspirant watches the servitors go about their task and wonder about their fate. At one point, (just before the aspirants 'graduate' to scouts, IIRC), they are given the chance to opt out and become a chapter serf.

The traditional limit of one thousand battle brothers is marines in line companies.

That says nothing about drivers, pilots and other support personnel. Those are outside the normal 1000 limit. So why waste a good loyal body when an initiate rejects the Black Carapace, for example? If you can serve by driving a tank then do so - we've already invested years of training and indoctrination in you.

Some zealous chapters will think it's because of some hidden sin, ofc... but isn't part of the creed to give your life in service to the Emperor? Throwing away a large investment when you can still get use from it is a sin, just as individual marines get censored for wasting ammunition.

Spetulhu wrote:The traditional limit of one thousand battle brothers is marines in line companies.

That says nothing about drivers, pilots and other support personnel.

Drivers and pilots are from the reserve companies (6-9).

In fact, looking at the chart, the only actual Astartes that aren't part of the 1000 in a codex chapter are the chapter master, his honor guard (assuming they aren't taken from the first company), techmarines, and the Librarius, all of which are fairly small groups (a techmarine has servitors to assist, for example, and Librarians themselves are extremely rare).

The Apothecarium doesn't count either.


and drivers of all vehicles with the exception of Landspeeders and Transports are from the Armory.

Landspeeders are driven by Assault Marines from the company or the dedicated assault company. Transports are driven by the squad assigned to them or by a dedicated company driver.


Landraiders, Predators, Vindicators, and Whirlwinds are all driven by members of the Armory. which is Junior Techmarines and other auxiliary members.

According to the latest codex' chart, there's one apothecary per company, and they are counted towards that company in the captain's command squad.

it depends on the chapter.


the BA Sanguinary Priests are seperate from the companies. the smurfs arn't

A while ago someone posted a really good B&C article that explains how chapters use a lot of technicalities to get around the 1,000 limit. The 1,000 is just line infantry. Most chapters are like 1200-1400 actual guys. However, most chapters are also never at full strength so in a way it is around a 1000.

It is my honour to present you with this MasterCrafted toothbrush, the khazi is that way >

would be gutted

cadbren wrote:

Melissia wrote:
At any rate, those that failed the first tests are serfs. Those that failed tests AFTER they started putting organs inside of them... are psychotic, mentally unbalanced, and generally speaking unable to fulfill any roles except maybe shock infantry.

What do you base this on? Organ rejection does not mean mental instability. But regardless, the question was about serfs who don't come across as lobotomised drones, that's the fate of the servitors.
The serfs provide crew for the ships, crew the defence weapons for the ships and bases of the chapter, look after the marine's equipment, do all the other jobs to keep things running smoothly that a servitor is too limited to do. They also provide a secondary line of defence if any ship or base is boarded, the marines themselves being the first line of defence. It seems that many of the chapter serfs are allowed to take wives because the position is hereditary (from the Lexicanum article). That suggests that chapter serfs are a mix of failed initiates with whatever enhancements they might have and normal humans.

I'm guessing Melissia got it from the CSM a few editions back that told of the dangerous side effects of the transformation.

This organ rejection is not like human organ rejection as they are not just replacing an organ they are adding more and a few of the organs are actually hormone regulators. If these hormone regulators malfunction this would lead to a person being mentally unbalanced.

^In older fluff, Marines-- in some chapters at least-- have to be monitored regularly to make sure that everything is functioning as it should, so that hormones stay balanced, organs function, and they stay at just the right level of psychotic murderous-ness. Transhumanism is a high-maintenance proposition.

Melissia wrote:According to the latest codex' chart, there's one apothecary per company, and they are counted towards that company in the captain's command squad.

A five man command squad for at least the first six companies is another 30 marines, plus another ten marines who are the captains. Then you have the librarians, techmarines and chaplains, the personal guard of the Chapter Master and the Chapter Master himself. Suddenly we're talking about another 50 marines (at least) fully supported by the codex.
Then there are the others that we're not sure about such as the marines assigned to battle barges and other craft, who flies the thunderhawks, drives the rhinos etc.
The seventh (reserve) company provides crew for landspeeder variants and bikes, but who drives the rhinos, razorbacks etc?
Who is Brother-sergeant Chronus of the Ultramarines? He's said to be a tank commander, that doesn't sound like he's a sergeant in one of the reserve companies who hops into a tank from time to time when the need arises. That sounds like he specialises in fighting from tanks and, as the title commander implies, is in charge of other marines who do the same.
What about Scout-sergeant Telion of the Ultramarines? What squad of scouts is he the leader of? There's no suggestion that he has his own squad, he's just listed as being part of the 10th company where he trains new marines suggesting he's another marine not counted within the 1000.

Fails space marines adepts usually become serfs or servitors.

Melissia wrote:A person with a name? Perhaps several!

Nah. If you're the same prolific posting, fellow SoB player, Melissia that I've seen on Warseer and Bolter & Chainsword, then it looks like you've just got the one.

Hmm, stalky much? I prefer to think 'proffesional lurker.'

I recall in Angels of Darkness a child is killed by a Chaplain because he shirks away from an apothecary who is testing geneseed compatibility

Though this was done on compassionate grounds because if he was sent back to his family in disgrace he'd likely be killed anyway... Instead they said he died in training with honour.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Though I imagine in the Ultramarines you are given a hefty pension and retired to a care home to look after you and nurse you through your remaining years... with a bedtime story reading every night.

htj wrote:

Melissia wrote:A person with a name? Perhaps several!

Nah. If you're the same prolific posting, fellow SoB player, Melissia that I've seen on Warseer and Bolter & Chainsword, then it looks like you've just got the one.

Hmm, stalky much? I prefer to think 'proffesional lurker.'

Really? Where do you find the time for all this posting Melissia?! Plus isn't B&C more of a Space Marine fansite? The horror!

someones gotta keep the Sister love going

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

htj wrote:

Melissia wrote:A person with a name? Perhaps several!

Nah. If you're the same prolific posting, fellow SoB player, Melissia that I've seen on Warseer and Bolter & Chainsword, then it looks like you've just got the one.

Hmm, stalky much? I prefer to think 'proffesional lurker.'

Really? Where do you find the time for all this posting Melissia?! Plus isn't B&C more of a Space Marine fansite? The horror!

Oops, I'm causing trouble. To the lurk-mobile!

Grey Templar wrote:someones gotta keep the Sister love going

It's the the sister love that I think would be the problem but the marine hate.

Melissia wrote:But far more likely than not (according to the Deathwatch roleplay's explanation) they're psychotic and unhinged murderers.

Doesn't this describe nearly all Astartes, failed or decorated, neonate Scout or Veteran Dreadnought?

*ducks*

BluntmanDC wrote:I'm guessing Melissia got it from the CSM a few editions back that told of the dangerous side effects of the transformation.

No, I got it from the Deathwatch roleplay.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

htj wrote:

Melissia wrote:A person with a name? Perhaps several!

Nah. If you're the same prolific posting, fellow SoB player, Melissia that I've seen on Warseer and Bolter & Chainsword, then it looks like you've just got the one.

Hmm, stalky much? I prefer to think 'proffesional lurker.'

Really? Where do you find the time for all this posting Melissia?! Plus isn't B&C more of a Space Marine fansite? The horror!

Wait, I've posted on warseer?

I don't even think I have an account there... or... I don't think I have.

I don't post on BoLS anymore, I just like Dakka's social atmosphere, to say it in a peculiar and cryptic way.

So wait... I can't make a character of mine a failed SM who was supposed to die but didn't as he was taken in by a renegade Inquisitor then?

Yeah, you can do that.

Goldenfistcrusader wrote:So wait... I can't make a character of mine a failed SM who was supposed to die but didn't as he was taken in by a renegade Inquisitor then?

Would be very unlikely, due to the relationship between most space marine chapters and outside authority. 'taken in' is also unlikely as how is this failed initiate supposed to have gone off world, most chapters recruit from worlds with tech levels at black powder and below, the only space ships with access to the worlds are space marine ones.

I thought whoever survived training became a Marine, am I wrong?

phantommaster wrote:I thought whoever survived training became a Marine, am I wrong?

You are correct, but it has no relevence to the question asked

No, you can fail boot camp and live.

I aree with therest...Serfs

KamikazeCanuck wrote:No, you can fail boot camp and live.

Boot camp? becoming a space marine is nothing like boot camp.

If you survive the transformation you are a space marine, being a space marine is a biological state.

if you fail the final combat trials (full transformation into a space marine takes time) you either died doing it or you fill a non-combatant role

BluntmanDC wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:No, you can fail boot camp and live.

you fill a non-combatant role

Yes, said person may biologically be an Astartes but he's not a Space Marine.

Also, I am under the impression that the various biological enhancements given to a SM are part of an ongoing process, rather than done all at once, so while I suppose being a failed Astartes and part of a Radical's retinue would be possible, you would lack some/most/all of the implants, augmetics and genetic restructuring that makes a Space Marine a Space Marine... to say nothing of the combat training that is really what makes them such fearsome combatants.

You might be better off being an Ogryn IG in the Radical's employ.