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Redbeard wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:I don't think GW care much how many copies of unit X have been sold.

They know that 75% of their customers churn within two or three years. That 75% only cares about the models available during their short period in the HHHobby.

That makes a lot of sense. The Chaos Daemon codex is 2-3 years old, and the new Grey Knight codex makes it completely unplayable. I guess the window of caring about daemons has passed.

Magnatize them on square bases(they came with em) and play some fantasy, 8th has done well to them. But yes my Daemons are not very fun vs the GK.

UsdiThunder wrote:It could be worse. Your army could be Cruddfaced which means since it's not IG you get subpar rules

Oh boohoo, Tyranids got nerfed. The previous Codex was broken, and anyone with a sense of balance knew it. It's not like you're unable to field the same number of Carnifexes, you're just unable to field as effectively powerful Carnifexes that causes all the whining.

, or they could get Warded then you get mary sue rules while your army has tea time with BA and Necrons.

Really? "Mary Sue rules"? You've used this term wrong, I think. And yeah, Ward's fluff isn't great. But as has been stressed time and time and time and time and time and time and time and time and time and time again--it is nowhere near as bad as the alarmists like to make it out to be.

Redbeard wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:I don't think GW care much how many copies of unit X have been sold.

They know that 75% of their customers churn within two or three years. That 75% only cares about the models available during their short period in the HHHobby.

That makes a lot of sense. The Chaos Daemon codex is 2-3 years old, and the new Grey Knight codex makes it completely unplayable. I guess the window of caring about daemons has passed.

Whoa. Daemons are weak against a force that has always been described as their foil?

Say it ain't so, Redbeard!
It is silly that both have kind of become 'huge armies of their own' rather than allies for their respective factions to take into their forces but eh, what can ya do.

Polonius wrote:The picture in an army book or codex can sometimes show a mock up, or a resin cast, or something other than a fully built and painted plastic kit.

They've been moving away from that for a bit, at least in terms of the models proper. It caused all kinds of nerdrage, but now you'll see scenery and the like done that way.

Also, it's not only unpopular armies that get left behind. Orks and Wolves have been marquee armies for 15 years, and incredibly popular, and both languished for quite a while.

Weren't Orks and Wolves both considered 'fairly balanced' books before their revision?
I mean, I remember there was issues with Orks because there was no real 'base' vehicle kits and almost everything was converted but that's all that comes to mind.

Kanluwen wrote:
Whoa. Daemons are weak against a force that has always been described as their foil?

Say it ain't so, Redbeard!

Kinda OT, but I've played three games against grey knights with my daemons so far, against opponents who were not holding back (I.E. they actually took units with Warp Quake, and actually used it, unlike in some of the battle reports I've seen here). So far, I've managed to land two units on the table anywhere close to where I wanted them. Everything else has mishapped.

There's a difference between 'being weak' against something, and actually getting to play a game. Furthermore, it can be argued that game balance is MORE important where fluff dictates that two armies are in opposition to each other. When Grey Knights and Daemons fight, they should be closely contested epic battles. That's what fun is. When one side has so many tools that absolutely wreck the other, there is no epic battle, there is a slaughter. That's really not fun for either side. I actually think the GK codex is more of a travesty for casual players than for competitive ones. Competitive players are used to seeing a codex become invalidated and move on to the next. Casual players are left with, in this case, the promise of a strong storyline and the reality of a horrible joke of a match-up between two forces that should be evenly matched.

Redbeard wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Whoa. Daemons are weak against a force that has always been described as their foil?

Say it ain't so, Redbeard!

Kinda OT, but I've played three games against grey knights with my daemons so far, against opponents who were not holding back (I.E. they actually took units with Warp Quake, and actually used it, unlike in some of the battle reports I've seen here). So far, I've managed to land two units on the table anywhere close to where I wanted them. Everything else has mishapped.

Interesting.

There's a difference between 'being weak' against something, and actually getting to play a game. Furthermore, it can be argued that game balance is MORE important where fluff dictates that two armies are in opposition to each other. When Grey Knights and Daemons fight, they should be closely contested epic battles.

No doubt about it, but with the fluff for Grey Knights...they're always extremely outnumbered. We're talking whole worlds packed with Daemons, Bloodletters running wild on streets, Plaguebearers and zombies everywhere, etc.

That's what fun is. When one side has so many tools that absolutely wreck the other, there is no epic battle, there is a slaughter. That's really not fun for either side. I actually think the GK codex is more of a travesty for casual players than for competitive ones. Competitive players are used to seeing a codex become invalidated and move on to the next. Casual players are left with, in this case, the promise of a strong storyline and the reality of a horrible joke of a match-up between two forces that should be evenly matched.

I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with you Red, I was just saying that I'm not surprised.

But just you watch. Daemons of Chaos in their next incarnation will be fielding Daemon Primarchs who shred Grey Knights.

Cortez667 wrote:Fir
What I've been thinking about for quite some time is this: GW re-does a Codex (or an army book, but lets stick to 40k for simplicity). Now, from older codexs, there are already countless players with armys built; models built, painted and have strong back history assoiciated with them in the players eyes.

Then GW changes, or even removes, these units from the new rules.

My question is this: Where does GW get their data from, thats says 'X' number of players out of 'XX' number of players who play this army don't use this unit, or at least don't have significant models to warrant us NOT changing this unit around, or dropping it completely?

Its all about money, when they change/remove/add units. It change what a legal army is. So more money for them, as poeple now have to go update there force. There no other reason then this, MONEY.

I can't wait to see what kind of ridiculous stuff Daemons get when they get updated!

I've been wondering why they took the Tyranid War Veterans out of the Vanilla Codex, they seemed like something you should be able to feild. Also why havent they put Deathwatch back in a codex? I mean they made a RPG for them they might aswell put them back into the Vanilla Codex or put them in the Grey Knights Codex. They have Xenos Inquisitors in there why not Xeno stomping Marines?

Riddick40k wrote:I've been wondering why they took the Tyranid War Veterans out of the Vanilla Codex, they seemed like something you should be able to feild.

They got rid of a great many of the 'Single Chapter' units in the primary SM codex.

Also why havent they put Deathwatch back in a codex? I mean they made a RPG for them they might aswell put them back into the Vanilla Codex or put them in the Grey Knights Codex. They have Xenos Inquisitors in there why not Xeno stomping Marines?

Deathwatch have never really "been in a Codex". They've had rules, but not in the way you're thinking of.

Anyways: Deathwatch are just fine to be represented by the Sternguard unit entry.

they replaced them with Sternguard who are better in almost every way.


and Tyrannic war vets could ONLY be taken in a Ultramarine list. so technically you couldn't have them unless your marines were wearing blue. same with all the Special characters. they were only allowed in a list of their chapter.

Honor Guard were ONLY for Papasmurf or an Ultramarine force.


you can see the problems this would cause.

Kanluwen wrote:But just you watch. Daemons of Chaos in their next incarnation will be fielding Daemon Primarchs who shred Grey Knights.

You know, I fully expect that, and it's just as bad. It's not about wanting to be the better codex, it's about wanting to play entertaining games, not stupidly one-sided ones.

Redbeard wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:But just you watch. Daemons of Chaos in their next incarnation will be fielding Daemon Primarchs who shred Grey Knights.

You know, I fully expect that, and it's just as bad. It's not about wanting to be the better codex, it's about wanting to play entertaining games, not stupidly one-sided ones.

The only 'real' solution I can see for the Daemon/Grey Knight imbalance is the easiest.

Daemons get rolled into Chaos Space Marines again, allowing them to field three effective lists within: Daemons, Chaos Marines, or mixture of the two.

well, GKs are hardly overpowered.

Strong? yes. but overpowered? no


IG were seen as Overpowered when they were released, and so were Blood Angles, and Space Wolves, and Tyranids(prior to FAQ shafts )


guess what?

people have learned to deal with them.


the same shall come to pass for GKs.

Grey Templar wrote:well, GKs are hardly overpowered.

Strong? yes. but overpowered? no

Redbeard's looking at it explicitly from the perspective of Daemons--who do kind of get the shaft.

Kanluwen wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:well, GKs are hardly overpowered.

Strong? yes. but overpowered? no

Redbeard's looking at it explicitly from the perspective of Daemons--who do kind of get the shaft.

Not from what I have seen, now if they build to just kill Deamon sure. But, as it is most GK list will be pretty balanced vs Deamon.

Kanluwen wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:well, GKs are hardly overpowered.

Strong? yes. but overpowered? no

Redbeard's looking at it explicitly from the perspective of Daemons--who do kind of get the shaft.

Deamons sucked before the GK codex came out.

DHs were pretty much an Auto-win against deamons.


anything that could pour massive amounts of fire into a deamon army could win pretty easily. 5++ only goes so far.


if anything, your big dudes are more survivable because Psy weapons don't ignore your invulns anymore.

Isn't warpquake a relaitvely cheap upgrade, and also good against non-demons?

Having a hard counter readily available makes things tough for any list. Look at Nob Bikerz after hammernators...

Warpquake isn't an upgrade

My point is, isn't it something that alot of lists would include even if they weren't sure they were facing demons?

Dunno. Warpquake is, as far as I know, only on Interceptor and Strike Squads.

Which are, IIRC, one of the basic troops for grey knights?

So, sorry, it's not a cheap upgrade. It's included in the basic troop choice.

depends


a Mech list in lots of Rhinos and Razorbacks might have 2 min sized squads purely for Warpquake. and to keep your army safe from suicide melta deep strikes.


it is a hard counter to deamons, the main issue being that it isn't deamon specific. it also feths up Drop Pod armies.

Noir wrote:Not from what I have seen, now if they build to just kill Deamon sure. But, as it is most GK list will be pretty balanced vs Deamon.

Well, I have to disagree here. More to follow.

Grey Templar wrote:
Deamons sucked before the GK codex came out.

DHs were pretty much an Auto-win against deamons.

anything that could pour massive amounts of fire into a deamon army could win pretty easily. 5++ only goes so far.

if anything, your big dudes are more survivable because Psy weapons don't ignore your invulns anymore.

DHs were actually weak against daemons. One or two psycannons didn't make up the difference. And daemons hardly sucked. Skilled players have done very well with them. Brent (BoLS/Strictly Average) got 6th place out of the 250 person field at Adepticon with them... Yermom routinely placed well with them, I think he might have won a major event. Centurion99 made 'ard boyz finals with them two years in a row, I believe. I've won tournaments with them.

Polonius wrote:Isn't warpquake a relaitvely cheap upgrade, and also good against non-demons?

Warp quake is an auto-include, not an upgrade.

Having a hard counter readily available makes things tough for any list. Look at Nob Bikerz after hammernators...

I have had minimal issues with hammenators when playing Nob Bikers. Warp Quake prevents you putting models on the table at all.

Consider with that just two troop units (odd, you need to include those anyway), and proper placement, you can extend warpquake over 50% of the surface of the table. If you include a unit of Interceptors, you can get something like 80% coverage, maybe a little more or less. What's more, the areas that you're not covering are at the very edges of the table, so unless the daemon player rolls a 'hit', they're scattering off the table, or into the warp quake.

This isn't a 'hard counter', this is a feth-you, you're not even playing the game. And it's not to one unit, it's to the entire codex. Daemons don't get the option to start on the table. If the grey knights get first turn, the daemons just lose, period. If the daemons go first, they're playing at a significant disadvantage. You'll see some battle reports posted here - but none of them include this. That's because it's simply not worth writing "my opponent warp-quaked, and all my units mishapped".

Like I said, I've played through some of these games. This isn't just net-theory. Smartly placed, all it takes is two troop choices and one fast attack to blanket the board and the daemons don't even get to play. And that's hardly units you wouldn't bring to any game. Interceptors have value. PAGK are some of the cheapest bodies you can put in your list, and unless you're going for a henchman or purifier build, you're going to have them regardless.

Polonius wrote:Which are, IIRC, one of the basic troops for grey knights?

So, sorry, it's not a cheap upgrade. It's included in the basic troop choice.

One of them, yes.

However, the entire Elites section is the 'basic troop choice' in many cases.

Purifiers can be either Purifiers or Strike Squads.
Interceptors are the only ones that are really 'stuck' as a specific unit type when it comes to Power Armor.

@Redbeard:

While people can, and do, do well with Deamons, i would argue that is nearly completely due to skill.

ANY army in the hands of a steller/good general will crush a force led by a lesser general.

but, all other things being equal, I would say that Deamons are one of the worst Codecies in print at the moment. Deamonhunters were there as well, but GKs basic weapon, the Stormbolter, could just rip Deamons to shreds the turn they came down. only Plaguebearers could wither the fire and they are about the same cost as the GKs opposing them.

set 2 generals of equal skill against each other. have one with deamons and one with the old DHs. i would bet on the DHs.

Riddick40k wrote:I've been wondering why they took the Tyranid War Veterans out of the Vanilla Codex, they seemed like something you should be able to feild. Also why havent they put Deathwatch back in a codex? I mean they made a RPG for them they might aswell put them back into the Vanilla Codex or put them in the Grey Knights Codex. They have Xenos Inquisitors in there why not Xeno stomping Marines?

Tyranid war Veterans are now Sternguard.

Funny - no one mentioned the Chaos butthurt during the 3E to 4E change. Iron Warrior players lost basilisks and tech marines. Alpha Warrior players lost cultists. Back in the day those were some expensive armies wasted. My personal gripe is that daemon princes have to be MCs now - I had converted an awesome marine sized daemon prince and then the codex changed. </butthurt>

MrLimeKing wrote:Funny - no one mentioned the Chaos butthurt during the 3E to 4E change. Iron Warrior players lost basilisks and tech marines. Alpha Warrior players lost cultists. Back in the day those were some expensive armies wasted. My personal gripe is that daemon princes have to be MCs now - I had converted an awesome marine sized daemon prince and then the codex changed. </butthurt>

Butthurt?

Troll harder.

Chaos lost it's soul when it went from 3.5 to 4th.

insaniak wrote:Given that a codex is in essence nothing more than a marketing vehicle for selling models, it should be exactly the opposite, in fact... The whole point of releasing a new codex is to get people to buy new models.

And, Ladies and Gentlemen, that is the difference between a wargaming company (Catalyst, Privateer Press, Rackham), and a miniature wargaming figurines company (Games Workshop).

MrLimeKing wrote:Funny - no one mentioned the Chaos butthurt during the 3E to 4E change. Iron Warrior players lost basilisks and tech marines. Alpha Warrior players lost cultists. Back in the day those were some expensive armies wasted. My personal gripe is that daemon princes have to be MCs now - I had converted an awesome marine sized daemon prince and then the codex changed. </butthurt>

Gosh, my buddy played Iron Warriors during 3rd, I'd forgoton about that fiasco! But again, prime example; Basislisk+$$$$+GW Changes=Butthurt...

UsdiThunder wrote:It could be worse. Your army could be Cruddfaced which means since it's not IG you get subpar rules, or they could get Warded then you get mary sue rules while your army has tea time with BA and Necrons.

IG has its equal share of stupid rules, it just lucked out in having a great selection for troops and heavy support (and vendettas) that all the useless crap (pretty much all the specialty units) goes unnoticed.