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Yad wrote:Not sure I agree with that. In my mind (and in the context of the this assassin's special rule) there's quite a difference between determining the number of hits a unit takes versus suffering wounds. I'll need to re-read the wounds section, but I thought that if a model suffers a wound it must immediately make a save.

It's not determining how many it takes, the Unit immediately suffers X hits. That either means the unit suffers X hits resolve them OR the Unit suffers X hits and it never tells you how to resolve them so you can't.

Well if you're going to pick nits between the words 'takes' and 'suffers', the rules for the Assassin says that the unit suffers D6 S4 hits.

Aramoro wrote:

Yad wrote:So let's say that you made your Reserves roll and then nominated a target unit. The next step is to determine the number of hits. For sake of argument we'll put it at 4. You've now determined how many hits the unit takes. Next step, place the Assassin. Final step roll to wound, allocate wounds, make saves (if possible).

The key here is not immediately resolving those hits, it's determining how many are taken.

-Yad

But why would you NOT resolve the hits as soon as you suffer them? I haven't seen anything to support that you interrupt resolving the hits to do something else.

It matters in the more general case of are the casualties removed before the Assassin is placed as that effects where the Assassin can be placed. Given the rules I cannot see how you could not resolved the hits first THEN place the assassin.

I think because you are trying to liken this to some sort of shooting attack by which the rules to resolve fall in exactly as you expect. The Polymorphine ability contains it's own set of rules to work through:

1.) Roll for Reserve
2.) Nominate enemy unit
3.) Determine number of hits
4.) Place Assassin

You are determining the number of hits taken, you are not directly inflicting wounds. There's no reason why you must immediately resolve those hits in the context of this rule.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Arctik_Firangi wrote:Well if you're going to pick nits between the words 'takes' and 'suffers', the rules for the Assassin says that the unit suffers D6 S4 hits.

I was pointing out the difference in hits vs wounds. Not taking hits versus suffering hits.

When the Callidus Assassin arrives from reserve, choose an enemy unit. The chosen unit immediately takes D6 S4 AP2 hits. The Callidus Assassin is then placed anywhere within 3" of that unit using the Deep Strike rules, but does not scatter.


Well, I guess since it only tells you to inflict the hits, and doesn't tell you to roll to wound or have your opponent make saves, I guess they don't. You ask people to point to the place where it says they have to resolve the hits right there otherwise they are all idiots with no merit to their arguements and so on, so I ask you;

Tell me where it says in that they resolve the wounds and saves at all Nosferatu1001? Oh wait you can't because it is implied. It seems then, as you are so fond of telling everybody else in this and any other debate over rules, that your arguement is entirely without merit and you should read more slowly and all that.

As far as I can tell, the article cleared it up, so we can go tearing up each others semantics or arguements like logic professors but the rules outcome would be the same: they place within 3" of where the unit was, the end.

Yad wrote:
You are determining the number of hits taken, you are not directly inflicting wounds. There's no reason why you must immediately resolve those hits in the context of this rule.
.

So it's your position that RAW the Assassin will never to any wounds to a unit then as it never tells you to resolve them, that's interesting but I don't think that's correct.

Aramoro wrote:

Yad wrote:
You are determining the number of hits taken, you are not directly inflicting wounds. There's no reason why you must immediately resolve those hits in the context of this rule.
.

So it's your position that RAW the Assassin will never to any wounds to a unit then as it never tells you to resolve them, that's interesting but I don't think that's correct.

Yes and no. The Polymorphine ability does not inflict wounds directly. It causes hits. Furthermore, it explicitly tells you that after you determine the number of 'hits' suffered, you place the assassin. I would say that it is then implied you now resolve the hits suffered. I.e., work out how many wounds are caused.

-Yad

Yad wrote:
Yes and no. The Polymorphine ability does not inflict wounds directly. It causes hits. Furthermore, it explicitly tells you that after you determine the number of 'hits' suffered, you place the assassin. I would say that it is then implied you now resolve the hits suffered. I.e., work out how many wounds are caused.

-Yad

If you don't resolve hits when you suffer them why would you do it later. I asked nos but he came up blank, do you have an example of suffering hit but not resolving them until some later point.

Aramoro - no, I didnt "come up blank", I went and did other things.

You have dewtermined the number of hits, you place the assasin, then you resolve the effect of the hits

Given the word "immediatelY" NEVER appears in the rule, despite yours (and others) erroneous attempts to pretend it is there, your argument still draws a blank

PROVE it is immediate and you have an argument. Until you do, I am going to exactly follow the rules: work out how many hits are inflicted, then place the assasin. Now ive placed the assassin im free to carry on
Yeenoghu - ignoring your post, it contains no rules and inserts made up ones instead.

I think Aramoro's position is more in line with common practice. Normally when some effect or weapon or special rule inflicts hits on a unit, you completely resolve those hits before going and doing something else.

I appreciate the effort to make the rule function with no problem by parsing the special rule in this way, but I can't imagine that it's the RAI, and it takes (IMO) a fair bit of work and strain to present this as RAW.

It's all really moot, though. The outcome is going to be identical either way. Unless you run into a dick who wants to try to claim that the assassin can't be placed if she wipes out the unit.