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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/04/25 23:16:31
Subject: Open-Topped Vehicle; ramming, disembarking & charging
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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They are disembarked, just havent disembarked.
There is a difference between the two.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/04/25 23:25:13
Subject: Re:Open-Topped Vehicle; ramming, disembarking & charging
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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No such distinction is made by the rules.
The vehicle explodes. The models are placed on the table, with nothing in the rules to make them either "disembarked" or to indicate that they "have disembarked".
Find something to quote that the placed models are "disembarked" except for the one entry which only applies if they are "disembarked". Otherwise, your argument is entirely circular.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/04/25 23:29:13
Subject: Open-Topped Vehicle; ramming, disembarking & charging
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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The english language states they are disembarked.
THey just didnt follow the rules within 40k for how to disembark.
Thus, they are disembarked troops, but have not followed the disembark rules.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/04/25 23:55:47
Subject: Re:Open-Topped Vehicle; ramming, disembarking & charging
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Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan
UK
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So it is pretty ambiguous. Bugger. Thanks for all the responses, though. Making it clear that the issue isn't clear is helpful, strange as that may sound.
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H.B.M.C. wrote:Friend of mine just sent me this:
"The Tyranid Codex, where I learned the truth about despair, as will you. There's a reason why this codex is the worst hell on earth... Hope. ." Too be fair.. it's all worked out quite well!
Heh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/04/26 00:24:35
Subject: Open-Topped Vehicle; ramming, disembarking & charging
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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2 dissenters that do not even make clear arguments against; does not make for a lack of clarity.
It is Clear: Transport Explodes = troops can assault.
Besides this really should not come up often enough to really matter or even really ever come up in game. The argument is almost completely academic.
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This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/04/26 06:54:13
Subject: Open-Topped Vehicle; ramming, disembarking & charging
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Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk
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DeathReaper wrote:The fact still remains that It is clearly intended
Interpretation is never a fact. RAI are always interpretations.
We don't know whether they intended explosions to be disembarkation, while it's likely to be so, and I agree on your view of RAI. Still, the writer might as well have intended to turn exploded vehicles into open topped vehicles, because the top is gone now. We don't know that, and because of that there is nothing to base a RAI discussion on.
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7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/04/26 07:53:25
Subject: Open-Topped Vehicle; ramming, disembarking & charging
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
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Kommissar Kel wrote:2 dissenters that do not even make clear arguments against; does not make for a lack of clarity.
What's the name of this one again? Argument ad populum or something? The number of people on a given side of an argument is totally irrelevant to its validity. [Insert obligatory reference to the earth being flat or the heliocentric solar system.]
Kommissar Kel wrote:It is Clear: Transport Explodes = troops can assault.
No it's not. It's genuinely ambiguous.
As Solkan pointed out, permission to assault the unit is dependent on their now "disembarked" status. While they do not follow the usual disembarkation process to get there, the end result is still a disembarked unit.
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Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.
Maelstrom's Edge! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/04/26 12:39:36
Subject: Open-Topped Vehicle; ramming, disembarking & charging
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Fresh-Faced New User
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Mannahnin wrote:Kommissar Kel wrote:2 dissenters that do not even make clear arguments against; does not make for a lack of clarity.
What's the name of this one again? Argument ad populum or something? The number of people on a given side of an argument is totally irrelevant to its validity. [Insert obligatory reference to the earth being flat or the heliocentric solar system.]
Kommissar Kel wrote:It is Clear: Transport Explodes = troops can assault.
No it's not. It's genuinely ambiguous.
As Solkan pointed out, permission to assault the unit is dependent on their now "disembarked" status. While they do not follow the usual disembarkation process to get there, the end result is still a disembarked unit.
Mannahin, I am afraid I have to disagree with that assessement. Permission to assault is granted to all models that have the ability to do so, subject to certain restrictions. Models that follow the disembarkation procedure are forbidden to do so under that particular set of conditions, as the disembarkation procedure is the condition which removes by explicit decree, that ability. Models that do not follow that procedure are not subject to the restrictions placed upon them. Just as a model that fired a non-assault weapon in the shooting phase is forbidden to assault; models that fired "assault weapons" or did *not* fire weapons *may* assault.
It is not the status of being disembarked that prevents models from assaulting. The placement of restriction from assaulting is a step in the disembarkation procedure. If that procedure is not followed, then that restriction is not placed upon them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/04/26 20:07:35
Subject: Re:Open-Topped Vehicle; ramming, disembarking & charging
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Sslimey Sslyth
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hearne wrote:It's splitting hairs, but that's what this thread is all about.
Yes, yes it is.
Could someone do me a favor, as I am at work and don't have my rulebook with me. Could someone cite the specific section containing the restriction on assaulting after disembarking? I'm curious about the actual wording and how it actually reads.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/04/26 20:11:23
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/04/27 20:56:03
Subject: Open-Topped Vehicle; ramming, disembarking & charging
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
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p.67 wrote:
-If the vehicle has already moved (including pivoting on the spot), the passengers may disembark, but not move any further in that Movement phase. Once the models have disembarked, the vehicle may not move any further (including pivoting on the spot). After disembarking, these models may shoot (counting as moving), but may not assault.
-If the vehicle has not yet moved, then the passengers may disembark normally and move normally. The vehicle can then also move normally. The disembarked models may shoot (counting as moving), and may assault as normal.
Hearne, I agree with your first premise, but disagree with your later ones, and conclusion. IMO just because a unit in an Exploded vehicle does not follow the normal disembarkation procedure does not mean that they are not a disembarked unit. The second paragraph of the "Destroyed- explodes!" description explicitly refers to them as "disembarked passengers".
I agree that there is some ambiguity here, but I think the most intuitive and appropriate way to resolve that is to go with the interpretation which is less likely to be a loophole.
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Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.
Maelstrom's Edge! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/04/28 03:02:58
Subject: Re:Open-Topped Vehicle; ramming, disembarking & charging
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Fresh-Faced New User
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Hm. I don't believe the specificity of the language works that way, Mannahin... but I agree that an interpretation is necessary as the same verbage can be read with dual meanings.
With that said, I DO believe the intent was that the models that survive the condition where they are placed after an explosion may not assault. Were this a game, I'm good with either interpretation so long as it's uniform. (and I would clarify it at the moment it happened, regardless of whether it was my squad or my opponents...)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/04/28 03:10:06
Subject: Open-Topped Vehicle; ramming, disembarking & charging
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[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills
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This is the point at which, were we face to face, I would shake your hand and buy you a beer.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/04/28 03:10:21
Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.
Maelstrom's Edge! |
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