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Hey all - just working on a few scenario's and one came up thats flumoxed me..

If a open-topped tank vehicle were to Tank Shock a model with a meltabomb (etc.) and due to Death or Glory the meltabomb wrecked this vehicle, would the embarked unit inside be able to charge in the following assault phase that same turn?

If not, why, just for clarification.

Thanks!

It's under the Open-topped rules. Even though the vehicle moved (Tank Shock) & was destroyed/stunned/immobilized (Meltabomb), and the unit inside is forced to disembark (destroyed) or voluntarily disembarks (immobilized/stunned), they may launch an assault, since the vehicle is open-topped, which modifies the disembarkation rule.
This is assuming the squad did'nt all get killed in an explosion, or lost enough members to take & fail a leadership test and are falling back.
So you should be good.

(dont have my brb with me)

'nother question... if I ram a vehicle using battlewagon, can I disembark and assault? I saw a batrep that did just that and I thought the brb explicitedly forbids disembarking after a ram. I know if you "tank shock", you could disembark since there is no restricition.

Well, Ramming means moving at top speed, and that is what prevents you from voluntarily disembarking.
Is the battlewagon open-topped?
If not, then no assaulting after disembarkation if the battlewagon moved.
If it is open-topped, AND you ram a vehicle AND you blow up/wreck your own tank AND survive the wreck AND make any leadership test for losing models THEN you can assault.
Unless there is something about a wreck that prevents it. I think in 4th you were considered "entangled" but I don't thinks it's that way now. (I'm not at home, so I don't have my rulebook with me right now). Besides, I mostly play DE, and ramming with my raiders full of glass troops is giving my opponent free points.
NOT the preferred way to launch an assault....

Bear in mind also that if a vehicle goes Flat Out, any embarked unit is forbidden to disembark in that turn. And the FAQ has clarified that if the vehicle is destroyed in that same player-turn, the unit dies.

@Mannahnin: Yeah, THAT was it, I knew there was something. Absolutely right.

Mannahnin wrote:Bear in mind also that if a vehicle goes Flat Out, any embarked unit is forbidden to disembark in that turn. And the FAQ has clarified that if the vehicle is destroyed in that same player-turn, the unit dies.

yup, I think a battle wagon or landraider might be the only vehicles this would really apply to. as they cannot move flat out and are assault vehicles so a force disembark would not prevent them from assaulting.
Otherwise you have to move flat out to tankshock and then if you are wrecked the squad inside is destroyed.

Correct me if I am wrong but an ork trukk that suffers an immobilized after going flat out is also destroyed or is it just immobilized?

Exergy: just immobilized; only fast skimmers moving flat out are destroyed by immobilization.

Also a looted Wagon without the 'Ard Case upgrade nor boom gun is an open-topped transport tank, so can ram and move 12" or 13", and then the troops could bail+assault.

Should an enclosed tank-transport get an "explodes" result; the troops can assault as well, transported units left from exploding transports do not disembark.

Explodes has no bearing on it, the models were embarked when they moved, and were forced to disembark because of the Explodes result, if it is not an assault or Open topped vehicle you can not assault out of it, if the transport has moved. (Even if its not there anymore)

Really?

Find me "disembark" in the "explodes" result; all I see is "placed"; whereas "wrecked" specifies the unit "Disembarks"

For that matter find me where in the disembarkation rules you disembark from a model that is no longer there.

You do not, and cannot, disembark from a transport that explodes; your models get placed where the vehicle was.

Placed=Disembarked, Destroyed Explodes mentions the now disembarked passengers.

The rules are poorly written as usual, but it is clear that the intent is to only allow assaults after moving in a vehicle that has the assault vehicle rule, or open-topped.

DR - and we're back to this argument again.

You can be "now disembarked" without following the specific Disembark rules. And you follow NO disembark rules (for instance: you are not placed within 2" of an access point) when you Explode.

Placed /= Disembarked

It is clearly intended to not let players assault after moving in a non-open topped or assault vehicle in that turns movement phase.

The rules are poorly written as usual for the explodes result, but anytime you are 'Placed' as per the 'Explodes' result, you have been forced to disembark, while not following the normal disembark rules.

No, you have not as you have not followed the "disembark" rules.

There is only one way to legally disembark in 40k, and that requires following the rules that you entirely ignore for an explodes result.

It is still clearly intended to not let players assault after moving in a non-open topped or assault vehicle in that turns movement phase.

even though the RAW is not clear, that is clearly how they intended vehicles that are not open-topped or assault vehicles, to work.

Isnt it quite clear that RAW allow you to assult?

RAI is another mather though.

DR - the RAW is perfectly clear. As in, you havent even attempted to argue against it, you just repeatedly say "it isnt clear!" and made assertions with no rules basis, such as placed = disembarked

Destroyed explodes says the passengers are now disembarked, they were embarked at the beginning of the movement phase, and are now disembarked. so they have disembarked, but some people say placed =/= disembark, while the rules say they are now disembarked.
So they should be treated as if they disembarked.

Seems clear to me that they were forced to disembark, its not that their transport is gone, it is in pieces all around them so it is still there, just in pieces, which the area of difficult terrain represents, thats why you place them there as they were forced to disembark and are now disembarked.

But we have been over this before and we disagree on this point so its not worth debating again.

the fact still remains that It is clearly intended to not let players assault after moving in a non-open topped or assault vehicle in that turns movement phase.

Mannahnin wrote:Bear in mind also that if a vehicle goes Flat Out, any embarked unit is forbidden to disembark in that turn. And the FAQ has clarified that if the vehicle is destroyed in that same player-turn, the unit dies.

You're absolutely right, but for some reason this itched under my skin and I wanted to clarify that a vehicle moving at full speed isn't always moving Flat Out. Flat Out is only available to Fast vehicles (and vehicles that have been the target of The Summoning, for some reason). Full speed on a normal vehicle is Cruising Speed.

I've heard people refer to non-fast vehicles moving Flat Out, so I just felt like tossing that in there. /shrug

I'm afraid I have to disagree with the statement that "placed" = "Disembarked." Given the redundancy of the ruleset and the obvious conflicts of "apparent intent" with "rules as Written".. you have to go with what is written instead of extrapolation a believed intent.

While it may be the intent that the troops were not meant to be permitted to assault, the only thing that *is* clear is that the rules do not state such. If they ment that they "disembarked" the rules would say "Disembark the troops into the area left by the wreckage." The RAW clearly do not tell you to disembark your troops, you are told to "Place" them, therefore the rules and restrictions for Disembarkation do not apply.

It is also arguable that it was *not* the intent as they could have said "Place the troops in this location following the restrictions for disembarkation" or "place the models here, with the standard rules for disembarkation applying..."

Neither of those statements are made. Given what has been said.. I would have to agree that models that survived after having been "placed" may assault.

Just as with everything else in the RAW.. verbage means everything.

DR: the Explodes result never says "now Disembarked". There is a note afterwards that states that if the vehicle "is destroyed (either result) by a ranged attack, the unit that shot it may assault the now disembarked passengers"

That is not part of the Explodes rule, but an after note explaining that units from wrecked transports are the exception to the "assault only what you shoot" rules on page 33.

Kommissar Kel wrote:DR: the Explodes result never says "now Disembarked". There is a note afterwards that states that if the vehicle "is destroyed (either result) by a ranged attack, the unit that shot it may assault the now disembarked passengers"

That is not part of the Explodes rule, but an after note explaining that units from wrecked transports are the exception to the "assault only what you shoot" rules on page 33.

Hrm. So, if "placed" is not the same as "disembarked," and we're given permission to assault the "now disembarked passengers" with the unit who's shooting destroyed the vehicle, can we still assault the passengers of a vehicle was exploded? If the vehicle exploded rather than wrecked, the passengers are "now placed," not "now disembarked," and we do not have any permission to assault the "now placed passengers."

Or, are we going to say that for this specific instance, placed does equal disembarked? (Even though that's not specifically stated.)

It's splitting hairs, but that's what this thread is all about.

A model that you wish to remove from a transport may only be removed by one of two procedures. Either you perform a "Disembarkation" which is a set, clarified, delineated step of procedures that must be followed in order for the model to be exited from the vehicle, or the vehicle is destroyed. Note, in a wreck, the models must perform the Disembarkation. After it is done, they are now "disembarked." If you do not follow that procedure, the model may not be placed outside of the vehicle. An explosion is a procedure that removes the vehicle from play and allows the models being transported to be placed according to a DIFFERENT procedure, which is NOT the Disembarkation. (take wounds, armor saves, etc..)

Disembarkation is a procedure. (like walking, running, etc..) Disembarked is a state of being that is the result of either performing the disembarkation procedure *or* being placed as a result of a vehicular explosion.

Hearne, that magnificent bastard, said almost exactly what I was about to.

Also note, that Assaulting out of an exploded transport is an extremely difficult, situational, and(if you do not have frag grenades) stupid thing to do.

First of all the only way to gain the ability from a non-open-topped transport is to perform a Ram, then you have to take a penetrating hit in your ram, that penetrating hit has to be an exploded result. Then you unit must survive the explosion, and then they have to pass a pinning test, then at the end of the movement phase if they had lost 25% or more, they have to take and pass a moral test. Then finally in the assault phase, assuming an enemy unit is within 6", and they only fired assault weapons at it(or were relentless), they get to take a difficult terrain test as they charge out of the crater granting the enemy they are assaulting first strikes.

So in order for it to happen you have to have your closed topped vehicle ramming fast enough, something hard enough to penetrate it.

Kommissar Kel wrote:DR: the Explodes result never says "now Disembarked". There is a note afterwards that states that if the vehicle "is destroyed (either result) by a ranged attack, the unit that shot it may assault the now disembarked passengers"

That is not part of the Explodes rule, but an after note explaining that units from wrecked transports are the exception to the "assault only what you shoot" rules on page 33.

That whole section is a part of the Explodes rule as it allows you to shoot the *Now Disembarked* passengers.

If the passengers are now disembarked, they can not assault because the restriction on assaulting if you have disembarked from a transport.

The rules are written so that they are not clear to everyone. I interpret it one way, you interpret it the other way.

No, it is not; see the Break between to two; the word "note"; and the fact that it specifies that it is talking about "Destroyed in general" not specifically "explodes".

Also; you are attributing the "now Disembarked" into far more places that the 1 it appears; the Shooting portion of the note says nothing about the now disembarked units, what it says is a reminder that you cannot have 1 unit Fire it's anti-tank weapons at the transport, wait to destroy it. then have that same squad turn their basic weapons on the transported unit.

Do not Misquote/Mis-attribute things that are not there in a frail attempt to win your side of the argument; it will fail unquestionably.

There is still a difference between the act of disembarking, and being disembarked as a state. The state of Disembarked has no restrictions; units 2-5 turns after disembarking(as in the action) are still in the Disembarked state(being that they were at one point embarked, generally when through the act of disembarking, and are now and forever, Disembarked; until, that is, such time as the Embark upon another vehicle).

the restriction is on Models disembarking from a transport that moved; units in Exploded transports do not(and can not)disembark; although they are disembarked as a state of being.

KK has it right.

Place / = disembark. You gfollow NONE of the rules for disembark, so you have not performed the action of "disembark"

Yet one can not be "Now Disembarked" without first having been embarked and subsequently being disembarked.

But we have been over this before and we disagree on this point so its not worth debating again.

The fact still remains that It is clearly intended to not let players assault after moving in a non-open topped or assault vehicle in that turns movement phase.

no; one cannot be "now Disembarked" without having at one point being Embarked and no longer being in a Vehicle.

no matter what; units do not disembark from an Exploded Transport; they Cannot unless you can find some way to follow the Disembarking rules(where the denial of assaulting from a non-open-topped, non-assault-ramp vehicle that moves is found) from a tank that has been removed from the table.

They do not follow any of the Disembarking rules, They are placed. Models placed from a non-open-topped, non-assault-ramp vehicle that moved and explodes have no restrictions on assaulting: written, nor implied.

The same reasoning which allows the unit to then proceed to assault because it did not "disembark" makes them immune to being assaulted because the rules clearly specify "the now disembarked unit".

The unit that was placed after the vehicle exploded around it clearly did not disembark, and so is not a "disembarked unit". It's a placed unit.