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Firstly, I want to commend you on your efforts, this is a wonderful thread initiative.

Im not super up to speed with 8th, but I played in a lot of tournaments with my TK in 6th/7th, so there are some things id like to put out there, to both get your thoughts and to give you mine.

1) Skeleton Hordes - not as good as you might think. The problem is that deploying extra wide to get the horde bonus allows the enemy to get many extra attacks against you. While you will get additional attacks also, every attack they have is often worth more than every attack you will have.

Even with Ws5 from a Prince (which is such a must now), you are still only T3 with 5+/6++, and very squishy. Most deficated CC units are going to blow right through you, using your wider frontage to get more attacks and whittle you down more quickly. For example, when you are 5 wide (100mm) it is possible to get 6 cavalry against you in CC. Right now then can get 8 + a chariot if they wish. Your static bonuses do not increase by an awful lot just by going wider, and they are going to be able to get many more attacks against you. This then drains your casting dice to keep the unit around.

Its a freakin' shame that warriors cannot get the warbanner or the banner of the undying legion now.

It may be worth considering going 5 wide and 6 deep (or more) with the warriors, to maintain your rank bonus as long as possible. The Prince does most of the killing anyway. Still, it is a wonderfully intriguing idea that I might try myself!

2) Skeleton Archers - these are a better bunker for your priests than the fast cavalry. It doesnt take much for fast cav to allow hits to be allocated to the priests and then they die awfully quickly. A unit of 13 with a champion and banner is a very effective unit. Stick then immediately behind your horde, with the priests nestled into the front, in the middle. This presents direct line spells from picking them out and doing damage, stops LoS to them for targeted spells and also prevents suicide charges. Sure, the archers will never shoot (or very very rarely), but the unit costs like 100pts and give you significant protection even from heavy damage spells.

Auxilliary - the lifeblood of TK in 7th, I cannot say that I have done enough playtesting to see whether that is still the case in the case in 8th. The chariot unit with the flaming banner is a must. TK have no real way of dealing with MSU HE elites otherwise. They also let you run down other chariots (24" charge!), ethereals and forest spirits (also a massive pain).

I would love to see a second unit of light cavalry, and some scorpions. To get these, I would advise getting ride of the collusus - even with the ponts reduction, and the gaining of a thunderstomp, they still dont strike me as being all that wonderful.

Scorpions, while they can no longer pop up and charge are still amazing. I usually only every burrowed one and deployed two normally. They easily destroy annoying units like detatchments, chaos hounds, yeomen etc, and are quite resistant to shooting (T5, W4). The +1 bonus hit from stomp just makes them that bit more hitty. Because you are going magic heavy, moving them around quickly will not be that difficult and their real value is in character sniping - any hero or lord mage will not last long against a scorpion. Sure, the scorpion wont last long against static combat resolution, but with a charge (+1CR), 4 atacks on the character (probably +2CR) and maybe a skill from stomp, combined with them taking -1W from resolution, you are going to get to do some damage, and trading a scorpion for a character is ALWAYS great. They make a nice force mulitplier with skeleton warriors as well.

I want to say something more on characters, but I need to come to terms with what I think is optimal or at least good.

Id love to hear your thoughts on character load out between 2000 to 2250.

- Z.

coool thread

Skeleton hordes are actually pretty good, especially with Spears and if you can get the KB augment off on them.



Skeletons are pretty cheap compared to other infantry hordes so you will outnumber the enemy.


and the enemy only gets more attacks if they are in horde formation themselves, otherwise theey get as many attacks with you in horde as if in bus.


and the unit can switch to Bus formation if fighting another horde and preventing them from being steadfast is important.



Skeletons really gain no benifit, aside from breaking the enemy steadfast, from going deep as they are unbreakable and just crumble. the max benifit is +3 static combat rez and a horde can easily be 5 deep to start with.


T3 and 5+ armor isn't that bad. its what anything that isn't a chaos warrior or an Ogre has. State Troops and Elves have 5+ armor and are T3. Beastmen are T4, but are lucky to have a 6+.

The obvious benefit of going deep is to deny the enemy attacks, when their attacks are if a significantly higher quality. Frontage is very important, and exploitation of it is your opponents best way to quickly knock down a large skeleton unit.

The problem is that state troops have at least an initiative advantage and gave access to a magic banner. Elves are just plain better - it's not like you can really whittle them down at range, so you need to be careful hue you engage to deny them as many attacks as possible, lest they rack up a huge CR. Skeletons without at least a prince seem to a losing prospect against anything with better than goblin stats - the provision if WS5+ is just enormous defensively, and dies help to generate wounds against mire lightly armored foes.

You will really only be denying attacks to a horde and, even then, they can attack 7 wide against a 5 wide enemy unit(corner to corner)


you might as well try and get plenty of your own attacks in too.


Skeletons arn't that bad. they are very good for their cost.

they also cause Fear, which is grossly under estimated in this edition. when it bites, it really bites.

Skeletons are better at tarpiting than actually do the killing, hold that unit up and hit them with Chariots/Warsphinx/Necroknights and whatever.
The attached prince isnt for really for the killing either, his job should be staying there to give you WS buff, so should be kit out accordingly.

Agree in full.

Still, for a while today ivwas thinking about a large horde unit with a King with the Ws10 swords - that could be a real pain in the butt unit to shift, around which the rest if the army could freely operate.

Interesting.

What caster load out is everyone finding to be successful? I'm running mass hero priests at the moment so that i can spam low level augments and get lots of heal.

Thanks all for the replies!

When I refer to 'horde' i mean enough to make a horde, but I usually deploy in bus and then move out to horde when needed.

The unit has to use the prince/kings unmodified WS.

As for caster I usually run lv4 and lv1. But I think I might run loremaster sometimes I need all the spells available.

I certaintly think its best to have loremaster if possable.


the more spells you can throw out there(dublicates too) the more sleletons you can raise and mitigate your losses.


a Lvl4 and Lvl2 would be the best option. more if possable.

Ok, so.

Game 1: Against VC. His list, from memory:
400+ pt lord vamp (nasty nasty)
BSB
Vamp with book.

30+ Graveguard
4 units of ghouls

And thats about it. A very in my face army, the ghoul units varied in size but were about 25-30 strong.

We played the diagonal deployment battle with a modified tower "king of the hill" scenario. I had my chariots in reserve he had everything on the table. He had 2 units of ghouls and book vamp on to my left, facing the skelly horde with prince. And then the other two units of ghouls and graveguard deathstar on the right side.

Anyway the game started well for me, with turn 1-3 going my way. until I charged the TG into the graveguard! And found out that that unit had an 8 combat res standing still :O. +1 for each vamp (gen and BSB), then BSB with a warbanner, and a standard and 3 ranks! So my TG lasted for a bit... but ended all dying. It was in this case that I wished I would have kept the BoUL on the TG... because the combat was away from the support of the priests... I also made the mistake of going into horde with my TG... but then he did the same to get more GG attacks.
On the far flank, suprisingly I had my colossus and carrio tie up a large unit of ghouls for about 6 rounds of combat...
On the other side I had 5 horse archers tie up another unit of ghouls until the chariots charged in and wiped them out.

In the end he had 3 units to my 2 units within 6 inches of the building in the middle, and he took the primary, secondary was to win by 300vp... and he had that ( I had only been able to get one unit of ghouls! (my TK almost killed the uber vamp, and I was unable to KB the BSB after all those rounds of combat :(.)

So a sound loss, to the TK.

Game 2: VS Dwarfs, gun line... his list:
Lord
Runesmith
BSB Thane
20 HW/Sh warriors
20 GW Warriors

2 x 10 handgunners
2x 10 crosbowmen
2 x grudgethrowers
2x cannon
2x bolt throwers

Mission was dawn attack. He had most of his things in the middle and to my left.

I scouted the horse archers to the right, the TG in the middle deployed in two lines to mitigate fire and the other units on the right...
This mission was me moving up and him shooting... the casket was great this game! Killing dwarves left and right... the LH and carrion got into the backfield and tied up the warmachines... But turn 3 it all changed! i charged my colossus into the handgunners up front... and killed them, overrunning into the lords HW/sh unit... the lord had the rune of double str against tough opponents... so my giant died horribly! He then proceeded to take out my prince with the 40 skeletons... The TG failed a key charge on a double one... and were unable to make an impact on the game. regardless... It was quite the game untill my hiero then died... killing the carrion and the horse archers to crumble and then the catapult.

This is what I took away from that-
- Make the hiero bunker bigger... so that there is always 5 R&F models for LOS.
- once again the BoUL was missed, the TG usually stray away from the main bubble.

So, two losses under my belt and I went into round 3 after lunch. My opponent? Lizardmen, finally a matchup that I have played before... sadly my worst opponent of the day.

Cheers!

Ouch those battles sounded painful. More experience is good though. I'm beginning to think the giant you have isnt the best of units, or maybe you should take note on what the dwarf lord has with him as they can be MC killers.

It was closed list and the lord runes totally caught me off guard... he waded through the colossus and the tomb prince without a sweat.

I love the idea behind this thread
Looks like you've learnt a lot from your games and are really understanding how the TK play. Congrats to you on the wins, and commiserations on the losses.
(the closed list seems a bit...well harsh, especially when playing against dwarves, those guys could have all manner of rune shenanigans going on!)

I really think a midsized archer unit with a champion is best - 13 with a champ is only 88points and offers a lot of protection. It's so important to have the big bunker because some armies can ONLY threaten your liches with concentrated shooting.

Enjoyed the reports, you have the right attitude towards learning.

The runes thing did catch me off guard. But that did not lose me the game... what lost me the game was a failed charge by the tomb guard... who rolled a double one. Ouchies.

I agree, the bunker for me would be 15 with a mus (100pts) as a minimum. COncentrated shooting to my bunker/s cost me characters more often than not.

Cheers!

Defs grab a champ as well - you never know when someone might try and suicide in a character.

Usually have a BSB in there as well.. acts as a pseudo champ... and with KB is a deterrent at least .

3 More games to report, the last two from the tournament a weekend ago, and one from this thursday (the LGS moved up to 2500pts.

Game 3 of the tourney saw me pitted up against Lizardmen. I will keep this one short. Mission was blood and glory and I broke his army in 4 turns. I felt slow played and had quite a few arguments with my opponent after a dodgy declare charges phase that included some shady pivots and moves. Needless to say, I won the game, but did not have a good time. The things that worked still, tomb guard were awesome. The light cav pulled some skinks from the main battle line, the colossus exploded after a horrible set of rolling when into some saurus... and the carrion held up an entire flank (20 skinks and a salamander pack).

So, after that sportsmanship disaster I went on to have the best game I had all day, against who? Another fellow tomb king! His list:

2 Kings
3 lv 2's
2 units of 45 archers
casket
warsphynx and 2 colossi.

All in all highlights from this game were:
My casket was awesome, killed his warsphynx and pulled a lot of his dispel dice. My bows peppered away one colossus while the other exploded against the HW/Sh skeletons. The TG rocked one unit of bowmen in the center and killed all the characters within 3 priests and a king... My light horse went up against his casket and won. At the end all I had lost was the HW/Sh skellies and the prince that ran with them. All he had left was the remainder of 45 archers and a king (blade of antarak).

We had tonnes of fun, and my opponent was very keen to mold his army up more in tune to the style that I was playing .

So, that was the tournament, I placed 9th out of 11... But did learn a lot. As soon as I got home I built another 50 skeleton spearmen and went about building a 2500pt list with all the tactical changes and knowledge that I had gathered from the tournament.

I was able to take all this to the table on thursday, when I got to play 2500pts... who did I play? Dwarfs. So I was up for a tough game. On my next post I shall discuss my list, his list and the mission we played as well as other notes.

Cheers!

Its always fun to face the same army that is built completely different. Nice work

Shame about the Lizard player, well done on the win vs TK though, congrats

So, this is about a week late but here it is nonetheless. Thank you all for your patience, after all, what is another couple of days when we have all been beneath the sand for aeons. (see what I did there? hehe)

First game at 2500pts. My opponent? Dwarfs, His List? Below:

Lord carried by two guys.
Thane o' Pain
Rune Priest
BSB

20 Handgunners Shields full c.
20 (or 30) Warriors HW/Sh
30 Rangers, GW
25 Miners Drill
2 Cannon
Grudge Thrower

Tough list. Not all gear is clear or was used. The mission was diagonal deployment with the roll for everything as they might be in reserve.

My list was as follows:

King- Mask, AoFortune, GW, Dragonbane Gem
HLP- 5+ Ward

Prince, AoDestiny, GW

50 Skeletons with spears FC
40 Skeletons with HW/Sh
7 Horsearchers
20 Bowmen
3 Chariots

30 TG, BOUL
3 Carrion
5 Ushabti w/ GW

SSC
Casket

Anyway. The deployment was us both with everything on the table. THe miners were doing their own thing. I was able to spread out all across my deployment zone (its amazing how much space you can control with 2 huge skeleton blocks and the TG block (that was in tripple file to mitigate the grudgethrower). I also won the roll to deploy scouts so I was able to force his rangers to deploy in a centralized position and not off on one of my flanks. The carrion were great for this and because of fly were able to get into the fight quickly. The casket was out of LOS from the cannon. So, he took first turn, and blew up my Catapult. And then I moved up towards him... I was very nervous about the miners and reformed my 50 skellies to face my edge (big, big mistake... I should have sacrificed the casket and just ran everything up at him full speed). For magic I just cast 5+ ward on the Ushabti... the rune of balance and the one rune priest really evened out the magic phase and prevented me from doing too much, the casket once again was fantastic!. The light cav moved to the flank of his thunderers to stay out of LOS with their vanguard move... and then moved in front of the chariots to provide them with heavy cover.

His second turn he was able to shoot up the chariots a bit and the horse archers. And his miners failed to arrive.

In my second turn... the LH charged the thunderers... the chariots failed their charge (that was to support the horsemen)... oh well. And the Ushabti rolled astronomically high to move into the HW/SH warriors with runepriest and thane with GW. The ushabti were in one big line of 5 (to mitigate cannon damage)... In the magic phase I irresistibly rolled a boosted smiting... suddenly the Ushabti were a lot scarier, and a lot of my outlying support units that had taken casualties came back.... but the miscast saw my HLP loose 2 levels, dessication and smiting (awww). To top that, the ushabti wiffed with most of their attacks, and only because of the stomps were able to win combat by 1. The Horse archers actually held the gunners up for a turn.

In his turn the miners turned up on my left flank, in front of the HW/SH skellies. And I realized I had squandered about 500pts (the prince and spear skellies). He killed all my chariots and my carrion. The gunners failed to kill the horse archers, the ushabti did a bit better in combat, but their numbers were dwindling.

My TG with king charged into the rangers... even with the banner of slow you down... and... after the dust settled... had all exploded. All those attacks, and only 2 kills. 30 TG and a King dead (ouch). The ushabti held but the rangers had reformed to face their flank after the combat. The HW/SH skellies moved into a building to force the miners to a longer drawn out combat. The Spear skellies reform to the center and move up. The horse archers finally died.

So to summerize... time was up and we had to call the game, but I did lose quite handily. I had taken 0 vp's and given away quite a lot.

There are a few things that I came away with:
- Horse archers need to be 10 strong to actually make them do something .
- Casket was awesome, although it did not go off, the power dice alone are worth its pricetag.
- The king was useless... maybe a double prince to save points?
- I liked the Ushabti... better rolling and they would have done a lot better. I find that the TK have a lot of anvils and no hammers, these guys (and the knights) are the closest thing that we have to hammer units.


Anyway.
Hope you enjoyed.

cheers!

Ouch, dwarves can really put up the pain for TK. Perhaps dual princes is a better investment than a king as you said. Still that sounded fun. I guess Ushabiti should always take GW, theres no real benefit for them to hang in the back and shoot

Consider taking out a unit of skeletons and getting more auxiliary units - you don't present a substantial amount of threats with three large, slow infantry units.

Light horse are best at 5-6; just don't expect them to do too much against dwarves, not all WM crew are Ws4, T4!

@ zemanjaski: I have considered this. I think the TG really need the necro, just to hit reliably at least until he is dead. I like the LH, 5 die way to quickly 10 means that at least they will have the numbers to go on far from the bubble of res that the priests provide. As for other supporting units, I really want to try out the necro knights and the warsphynx.. as I have not tried any of them so far. All I have used are old units and just new rules. Maybe its time for some more tweaking?

Through the looking glass came an image that was hard to swallow. Row upon row of skeletal forms, brazen weapons and shields glittering in the sunlight. Their advance was slow yet It chilled Hanz to his very soul. This handful of men had to buy the rest of the army time. The undead marched to war and Hanz feared for his life.


Just a little inspirational story note. This week if fantasy week at the LGS so I hope to be able to report back with another battle for the Journey.
Stay tuned.

Cheers!

Want to renew my support for this series. Great stuff. Played Tomb Kings at the last GT I went to, and I think Dwarfs will be a challenging matchup for Tomb Kings. The toughness to weather Str 3 shooting, the firepower to keep them from sitting back, and the magic defense to make things difficult in that phase.

Good call Zeke! This is such a god idea, hope you keep it up (and find the definitive TKs build for yourself too )

RZ, is that a hint for your next Bat Rep?

SO Game 1 that I am reporting vs Skaven. Battle for the pass... great game. Flaming chariots once more did great job of taking out the HPA, the ranked units of spearmen were awesome and a well placed dessication allowed me to get most points at the end of the game killing his greyseer. The 10 horse archers scouted behind his army and then killed the cannon and proceeded to disrupt his battle plans, I love this 10 man unit.

Some Pictures:
Deployment-

Tk T1:

Tk t2 and Sk T3:

End Tk T3:

T4:

T5:

The last combat:


And the next game that I also have to report was a grudgematch against Lizardmen! It was a great game and I did take a few pics. Will be up soon. Cheers!

Looks like a lot of fun, using your cav to take on the cannon was smart. I hate those things when they fire

I see Ushabti in there! Any comments on performance?

Red_Zeke wrote:I see Ushabti in there! Any comments on performance?

Im intersted also, but would you take them with bows?