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And?

"Aspirants" are where they are likely to recruit their Serfs from. They'll likely be individuals who could pass the initial battery of tests, but may not be genetically a match for the enhancements and implants. There's also a final test that will be for the aspirants to kind of 'cement the deal'.

"Initiates" are once they've passed all of those tests and begin to be trained.

I have to wonder if that book doesn't confuse the two or if it may simply have been something like an Aspirant who had passed all of the tests, reached the Initiate status--but couldn't accept the genetic modifications.

I can't see the Astartes being willing to embarrass someone who'd gotten that far, but only couldn't go further because of a genetic lottery. Telling them that "you can keep going as far as you can--which isn't far-- or become a serf and serve us in a far more important role than you could by just being stubborn and keep going" seems like the kind of thing you'd see from the Ultramarines, Raven Guard, Dark Angels, etc.

IIRC, Captain Garro in Flight of the Esenstein had a serf that had failed on one of initiation tests to enroll in the Death Guard. This particular one was extremely grateful and considered it a honor to be given the chance to serve the Astartes even after failing.

And I think this is where things become a bit muddied.

"Aspirants" are those individuals who have passed the selection process, but are passing the initiation trials.

"Initiates" are those individuals who have passed the initiation trials, but are still in the process of receiving all of the modifications, etc.

A newly raised "Aspirant" who just passed his initiation trials is an "Initiate". However, he won't have received any of the modifications or in some cases even been screened for accepting the modifications and genetic alterations.

I'm just spitballing things, but this is the best 'fit' for where Serfs would come from.
The modifications and alterations are things that are done very ritualistically. It would be seen as tantamount to heresy if they were used on someone who couldn't accept them.

But if those individuals could pass the trials and get screwed over by the genetic lotto, I don't see why Chapters wouldn't keep them around. They're definitely hardcases.

I found The Flight of The Esenstein. Garro had a Housecarl, which I assume is the same or similar to a Serf. He was a Death Guard Aspirant called Kaleb Arin who survived despite failing on the trial called The Thorn Garden. He somehow survived when most die. Garro took pity on him and saved him and allowed him to be his personal assistant.

He ran errands like taking Garro's sword for repair, delivering messages to other members of the Ships crew, and helped polish Garro's armor. He was treated with disdain by many newer members of the Death Guard, believing it to be a long forgotten tradition that had no place in the new order of the Crusade.

Just a little insight into how you could become a Serf as a failed Aspirant and what their role is.

and it was stated that it was the implants he had recieved that allowed him to live as long as he had.

implying that some initiates do recieve implants, fail the tests, but survive.

And you're ignoring that initiates do take 'tests' before becoming full Battle-Brothers and receiving the Progenoid Glands.

and your point?

Grey Templar wrote:and your point?

I thought it should be clear since you're splitting hairs and citing the mediocre novel that is "Sons of Dorn" as a source.

There's a ton of times where Serfs can be theoretically culled from the Initiate/Aspirant levels. To say that they "have the option to back out" once the training has begun is silly.

Once you're an initiate, there's no turning back. And for future reference: Servitors aren't made from "corpses". Once the brain dies, there's no chance for a servitor to be made. Eisenhorn described it at one point in "Hereticus".

Kaleb seems to have been the exception, not the rule, in that he might have been too old to take the Progenoid Gland(which wasn't uncommon during the Great Crusade era and those recruitment drives) and he may not have been able to get the same modifications that Luther and the other older members of the Astartes(but not really) club had going on.

vodo40k wrote:Aspirants must be first tested BEFORE their implants, to see if they are able to receive them. This is most likely where chapter serfs come from (although it would vairy from chapter to chapter) Each chapter requires thousands of serfs and servitors to support them (at least 20:1 id say) so they must have other ways of recruiting them aswell.

The ultrasmurfs have 1795 sevivtors circa 999.M41

Kaleb seems to have been the exception, not the rule, in that he might have been too old to take the Progenoid Gland(which wasn't uncommon during the Great Crusade era and those recruitment drives) and he may not have been able to get the same modifications that Luther and the other older members of the Astartes(but not really) club had going on.

I wasn't saying it was the only way Serfs are recruited, just giving a named example that goes into more detail. It specifically states in the book that he was an Aspirant that failed one of the challenges during the trials to become an Initiate. At the time, he was a candidate, young and able to receive the implants but was too weak in mind to succeed. Garro then swooped in and decided to save him, making Kaleb his personal Serf, as he was unwilling to take his own life after his failure.

Serfs are any who cannot become a Full Battle Brother but live. They will not allow you to remain a scout forever in a chapter, and a Serf can come from many areas.

Those who are culled to recruitment but cannot measure up to one thing or another during the screening process, those who kill a brother in a fit of rage or by accident because of carelessness is another example of where a serf can come from. A recruit can be demoted in a chapter to a serf anytime before the Black Carapace is implanted. And it really is at the choosing/discretion of the command group of the chapter's 10th company if someone can be allowed to become a battle brother or will live out there days serving as a serf if there is no other option available.

Initiates can become serfs, failed recruits almost always will become a serf. After all they are the ones who fly the ships under the astropaths and the direction of the Tech Marines, they handle the ships weapon systems in battle, they can be assigned many duties, namely anything task that a Battle-Brother can't be bothered with. I have read that in an emergency they can fly Thunderhawks and other craft if necessary,( although that is more of the role of a Tech Marine but it can be done in an emergency.) Although this may not apply to all serfs, some may only be trained to mop the floor and keep the cobwebs from forming in a marines bunk.

And to be a serf is an honor, I hardly doubt anyone would begrudge a place along side the Astarte's in the hell that is the 41 millennium even if they failed to become one themselves.

Here is a link to the Lexicanum which makes some nice points about the serfs.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Chapter_Serf

In some of the 'meaner' chapter, those are most definatly servitors, but in the 'nicer' chapters (Crimson Fists for example) they might be surfs.

But which Space Marine takes a human to battle? That seems like a stupid idea! Therefore, I think they must be MAINLY servitors.

Kanluwen wrote:Kaleb seems to have been the exception, not the rule

How are you coming to this conclusion? Seeing as there are a tiny number of examples of where serfs come from, concluding that one prime example is only an 'exception' makes no sence what so ever.

This is when people stop using fluff in discussions and just dulldoze their own theories as fluff.

BluntmanDC wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Kaleb seems to have been the exception, not the rule

How are you coming to this conclusion? Seeing as there are a tiny number of examples of where serfs come from, concluding that one prime example is only an 'exception' makes no sence what so ever.

This is when people stop using fluff in discussions and just dulldoze their own theories as fluff.

I understand your point though, but maybe we should finish, what GW hasn't accomplished.
As far as we know, there is no fluff produced by Games workshop or Forge World to acurately describe who these people are. We only have that one book. The only thing to do is to read every inch of other related warhammer 40k writings to try and find a clue about them, which no one wants to do willingly. That just leaves it up to community to make up there own fluff until Games workshop starts to care about their work, imo. All novels aren't writin by Games Workshop, they are writin by novelist, who are hired, who dwell deeply into established fluff and create their own stories and fluff based off such fluff.